**** WARNING - ANOTHER OLD SCHOOL OPINION AHEAD ****

The game has always been constantly changing, and probably always will be. Every change creates complaints, and not just todays complaints.

I remember NOT playing TW on alot of days, not because I didnt want to, but because all I got was busy signals on my local single line dialup BBS.
Then you had to deal with a time limit (usually 45-60 minutes), before the system hung up on you. Yep, left myself out in open space on many occasions.

I remember the fun and excitement, of actually playing *WITH OTHERS AT THE SAME TIME* because of multi-line BBS systems. This is when the knowledge curve of TW increased greatly.

I remember having to hurry up and put my "toys" away before MajorBBS had to run nightly extern. (The BBS would shut down for 30-60 mins for nightly routines). Then the race to log back in (often at 4AM), to make sure I wasnt towed out of fedspace by squatters. You also didnt get your turns regenerated until midnight, not hourly, if I remember correctly.

I have a registered copy to TradeWars Helper.
I have a registered copy of TWAR for DOS.
I have a registered copy of TW-ATS.
I have a registered copy of SWATH.
I have a registered copy of Telix.
I have a registered copy of ZOC.

What do I use mostly?
I do use SWATH for starting a game, mapping, and eprobing the universe.
ZOC and my own made REXX scripts (most were written when I played with Jackal and the Wolfpack. That should show you how old they are.)

I hated TWX when it first came out.
I guess I still do.
I will find a way to work around its agressiveness.
I do something that it possibly cant.
I think, and reason.

I personally dont like reactive scripts either.
I have never used a world anything script, or a gridder script.
I like to plan out my daily turns, and what I will be doing at the start, middle, and end. Not just click run, and go eat breakfast, and lunch.
These remove the human thinking part out of the game.

I just recently heard about an invasion script.
You play the whole game, and for what? To run a script?
Where is the fun in that?

Corporation scripts?
I could see those being very effective in tourneys.
They should be outlawed in public/open games.
Can that be done? Probably not.
Maybe you require teams to announce thier usage in the logs.
That will give others the choice to play or not.

There is one great improvement in TW, that I dont think I have seen anyone compiment about.
There is ALWAYS a new/good game starting somewhere.

The *old* days, if you went *SD*, you sat out up to 6 months waiting for the game to rebang. Also, almost all the games were identical, or so few edits that it didnt matter.

Nowadays, if I want my 700 turn, 5k sectors MBBS game.
There are probably at least 6 of them, at varying stages.

To me, a high turn game is anything over 2000 turns a day.
Do I want a 40,000 turn, 10k sector game with hevaily edited ships and planets? No. These types of games are BEGGING to be script abused. But, I dont complain about them. I just go along on my way.

Yeah, Im rambling now.
But, I just wanted to toss out my old rusty 2 cents before I go back into lurk mode.

Kav, everyone is entitled to their opinions.
I understand where you are coming from, I have been there too.

I now return you to your regularly schedule organized mayhem.

I'm going to have to disagree here. There are plenty of players who know the game, but lack the abiltity to write custom scripts. I've happened to corp with some very skilled script writers, Kav, Toyman and Xanos. I can suggest a type of script, and they can create it. The reason I can suggest a type of script is because I do have game knowledge, but don't know how to write TWX scripts. I can create some simple macros and Zoc scripts, so does this make me any less of a player?

Re-treads are players with knowlege of the game who cannot compete against script players.

"Script-kiddies" are those with neither game knowledge nor programming skills that grab these public scripts and blast everything that moves.

Tradewars Academy may be better if it became TWX bootcamp, for those so inclined to want to learn how to write scripts.

But, we still need a toggle to disable TWX for those games where players have game skill, but not script skill, and only want to enjoy the game.

Actually I believe you are agreeing with at least the intent of the paragraph because I am talking about game knowledge, not scripting ability. Writing a script does take game knowledge or at least someone who can guide the script writer on what needs to be done.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Cruncher has nailed it on the head. There are three elements to scripting in TW.
The tactical knowledge is the most important - determining and defining the objective, and how to achieve that. Next, the keystrokes.

That is all to the tactician.

The script writer does not even have to know how to play the game, given the above. Well, triggers and some game mechanics, yes.

Sometimes the script writer and the script inspirer/composer are the same individual, sometimes not. Later, the script kiddies might come along if they are given access.

Darkstarbase, you mentioned that you thought a single-player mode would be more friendly for new players. The game supports that. You can set access limitations with the <B> Access manager. I'd like to see an effort to start newer players in single-player mode games, then, once they are ready, let them advance to multiplayer games.

Another good way for players to learn the game without being subjected to aggressive players is to download and install the game locally. This wasn't an option until the release of TWGSv2. I think this has been a factor in allowing people to explore the game.

But eventually players will probably want to play in competitive games, and when they do, many players will have a rude awakening about how the game is actually played. Their illusions of a game of strategy and exploration will be dashed when they realize it's really just about who's bot is better. For those players who are into this kind of thing, and there are some, they'll love it. For the rest, they'll move on. I've seen this plenty of times.

I actually think that Botlink will greatly improve the situation. Add-ons will add support for things like truce rules and other special rules to allow gameops to control how their games are played. What I like most about Botlink is that the game will be able to evolve, through the power of scripts, as much in how the game is managed as it has in how it's played.

It isn't the fault of any tool. Players will do whatever they can do, and tools will be developed to enable players to play how they want to play. Gameops can manage their players to an extent. But if we expect to maintain any balance in the game, it needs to be able to evolve as much as player tactics evolve.

The same could be said for macro packs, salt scripts, zoc scripts, and swath java scripts. Its not the scripting. Its the players.

H

Also, why not advertise one of those public games for people woh want the old school feel have them email you their name and password. You put them in and let them run the show. Make the game private and you wouldn't have to worry about anyone outside the newbie box trying to get inside. Make sure they have access to classictw.com and use a proper name. Simple fix. get the new guys/returning guys all together and give them a few games to run down. You have the ability to touch base with most of the players. You could set up some type of email blast (JP permitting) from here to let old players and new players know about up coming games. You have 900+ people who like the facebook page. You have microbot that searches for these games. you have ample amount of twgs systems that advertise on facebook. May put a banner going across the top for new up coming games (like a scroll bar that automates across the top) there are many ways for these new and returning players to get a feel for the game. Solely to place the blame on 1 certain program that destroyed it all and scares people away is a bit much.

Do we really have to bring up script kiddies again (haven't we had enough of them) :):).

Honestly though. To say that it's scaring off people and returning people don't want to play is a bit nonsense (IMHO) No offense to anyone towards this but take a look at the games that people will bang for the older style feel. Great dedicated server/speed and only a number of people follow. If you want protection with not alot of crazy edits then go to Ice-9 or Cruncher's twgs. If you dont' want to get ran over or killed when leaving fed space don't enter a game that has a bunch of edits has been running for more than a few days. has at least 1 player with - alignment and the most expensive ship. chances are you will die. Heck why not make a closed section on here for new and returning players for them to actually post real questions and real requests for games. All they have to do is request access to it. Have those who answer scripting/gaming questions access to that particular forum and help these people out. Hopefully I make sense. sometimes I lose my train of thoughts

CoMeT!

Tried that, nobody responded.

Man that brings back memories of franticly hitting the redial key when booted, having probably spent 10-20 mins trying to connect, single line.

To the community at large: Wookie is a real old time TW player, I have not seen hide nor hair of him for more than a decade. He resurrected the TW Awards when Gypsy "went asleep" for the first time, and hosted what I think was the 3rd Annual TW Awards. If you read this Wookie, I believe Runaway Proton is interested in TW history in general, and would probably like it were you to send him whatever info you might still have on the 3rd Annual.

Kav

Don't get me wrong, all great ideas. The problem is they come in one at a time, and before they get a chance to stick around long enough to find others of the same mind-set, they get frustrated and leave.

I have a few "regulars" now and a couple of truly Old School players on my server. Eventually the word will get out, but people also have R/L's and there are some things more important than a 25 year old bbs text game!

Umm, I had something really useful to contribute until I realized that the subject pertained to Retreads and not Retards.

Though I have to say that I was a Retread who started out loyal to S.W.A.T.H., eventually switched over to TWX. So, to say that TWX destroyed TradeWars would be tantamount to blaming the Printing-press for destroying Chess. In other words: while you learn how to use the Hammer & Saw, you're gonna get hurt --for the first little while. Suck it up.

As a returning player I knew what to expect when if I were to log into a live game. I knew the second I left fed space I would be dead if anyone was at keys because that was how it was when I stopped playing a few years ago.

Personally, I love the fact the you can DL the new version of TWGS and have one node to play the game. It helped me to knock off some of the rust before trying to play a real game.

I use swath, ZOC, and TWX. I would say I have a better than average knowledge of the game but I couldn't write a script to save my butt. I love the fact that there are so many scripts out there that I can use (when they work that is ) that I have downloaded them all and I test them on my personal TWGS to see if they work and what the script does.

I would suggest to everyone who is learning how to play or returning to download V2 and play locally to improve not only skill but their knowledge of how the game works. Yes I know they won't understand how everything works, but it will allow them to obtain a general knowledge of the game.

I have played with and against a lot of great players and each had their own preference when it came to scripting. I don't think that blaming a program for the way people play a game is right. You can accomplish the same things with all the scripting languages it just comes down to which one each player prefers. TWX is free so that is why the majority of players use it.

Everyone has a different style of play, I admit when I am in a game and a new player joins a few days into the game I try to impede them from doing anything or kill them. It is a game after all and I like winning more than I like losing.

No offense but I suggest that you read the thread header and contents.

I am not a retread or a newbie and can deal with the reactive attack scripts quite easily. Boring, but sometimes fun if the players using them are actually at keys.



Kavanagh

Oh, I read your post.



You appear to suggest that we should all run around with Sticks and Stones because those are the Tools everyone has a inherent ability to weild. Unfortunately, there's is no way to differentiate names on the CLV. I think anyone who's played for more than a few years has been burned at least once for this exact reason.

I've coached a few people in my time, others have done more. I've seen people (aka Aliases), come and go. I would have hoped that you would gleamed from my inital post that: a) attempt at humour; b) not everyone is cut-out for this game (or, Chess for that matter). There's a natural selection process that takes place. Some people are destined to enjoy life through the joy of Sticks & Stones, and there are others who prefer to use Evolved Tool-sets. Everyone gets their respective boo-boo's. So, again. Coming from a Retread; suck it up. Learn to adapt.

This is basic stuff. Not even sure what you hope to accomplish here with this 'debate.'

As a constant retread, I think I can clearly say that TWX has not hurt the game at all, as long as it (and the scripts needed to go with it) remains on a website where people can go and grab it whenever they need it.

Quite to the contrary, I think that it is a boon to the game, and the ability to just jump in and play. The ease of just being able to step into a game and have every script you could possibly need has never been higher.

But then again I am younger than kav.