Time limit games are broken. The only players that a time limit game helps are people that can script usage of the high scores screen and take advantage of it. As it is no one will set up a time limit tournament for exactly that reason.

I do have a suggestion that may make all people happy. Just add it in as an option that is only available if there is a time limit set.

Then you don't play unlims. There is a use for CLV other than a time limit game. People use this probably more for benign purposes than the "evil" lurkers waiting to pounce on someone. Time limit games are a rarity.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Your example isn't usage to get around the time limit. If it's not fixed, time limit games will continue to be worthless because no one will use them. The reason time limit games are a rarity is because time limits currently don't work.

Real-time updates are necessary for unlim play. You are basing the requirement on your game style and not considering other types of games and game play style.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Let's move back up a few posts:

I do have a suggestion that may make all people happy. Just add it in as an option that is only available if there is a time limit set.

Then leave the updates in real-time for non time limit games. I think time limit games are more of a rarity becase they are a pain, and not because someone is lurking at the screen. They can do that all day long in a non time limit game and it doesn't stop people from playing the game.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

I don't think we are on the same page here. In non time limit games it doesn't matter so it's not an issue. Only in time limit games is this a factor and you haven't seen how it is used because you do play unlimited turn/unlimited time games. This is a problem that can be exploited ONLY in time limit games. Again the reason time limit games are a rarity is because they don't work because of this problem.

Pretty much the same page, just reading a bit different. I won't play a time limit game, not because someone might be lurking to bounce in, but because I don't like them. I know people can monitor CLV and use that to bounce in when they think the timing is right and save their key time - everyone can do that.

The problem I saw is that no one was considering that there are other game types that a blanket CLV update delay would affect.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

And that is exactly the reason I suggested that this should only be an option that effects time limit games only.

Yep and I agree with that part - worded a bit different since I had it written and when I posted I saw your post went in before I finished. Only minor disagreement is on the time limit games. I've never seen a benefit to them, just a down side, but to each his/her own on their game types.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Ok, I've spent a lot of time reading through these posts, and that's kept me from posting my own thoughts on it. Sorry it's taken so long.

When it comes to deciding what features to add, my position is that if even one person wants a particular option for their server, I will consider it. And I will always try to avoid making changes in a way that will disrupt other sysops. I don't play favorites, changing the game in a way that favors one gameop over another. When I disrupt players or sysops, it's because I personally feel that a change is needed enough to justify doing that. It's almost never because Cruncher asked me to do it. It's because after considering all sides of an issue, I decided that a change was better than no change.

I welcome everyone offering their personal perspective on proposed features/changes. But I never understand how resistant people are to a change that is an option and will not effect them in any way. When players complain that a proposed option won't make a difference, or that they'll never play in a game that uses that option, that's just a waste of everyone's time here. Very few features are expected to appeal to every player. The whole point is you can decide what style of game you like to run or to play. Don't try to impose on others what you personally think is best for the game. Be satisfied that your personal preferences are still available. If we need to debate about changes that are not optional, we can do that, but this is not one of those cases.

Ok, based on everything I've read in this thread about the H, CLV and #, as they relate to a variety of concerns (broken time-limit games, not updating fast enough, updating too fast, the irrelevance of the hidden #, etc), here's what I propose:

There are three relevant settings.

1) Hide online players - Same as current setting.
2) Report Generation Frequency - Setting that specifies how frequently game reports like CLV, H and V are generated. Each report can be set independently by the hour with a range from 24 hours to instantaneous. H can be disabled entirely, and V cannot update more frequently than 1 hour. Each report will be generated instantaneously for players with sysop access regardless of settings.
3) Show Node Activity to Players - a TWGS setting. If enabled, shows exactly what # currently shows. If disabled, # would show "Players: N" and "Admins: M".

I prefer to have multiple options rather than attempting to have one toggle that solves one particular concern. Different sysops can use these options in various ways to achieve their own goals. The general goal of being able to mask who's in a game is a goal I'm committed to, as is the goal of keeping players from breaking the time limits. I will consider other changes as necessary in order to achieve these goals.

Now keep in mind that this is a proposal. I'm not saying I'm doing this. We're just discussing things here.

Probably as important as adding options is what the default setting will be since a lot of people seem to run default game settings and probably server settings. The default will basically be the standard TWGS.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Thank you for the in-depth explanation. After being informed about time limit games and tournament games, we have a clearer picture to what is being proposed. We just want to still be able to pull the scores, get Who's Online, and any other data that we post on our website. If we have to adjust scripts to allow for "Key changes" or a menu change, etc, that will be no problem. It will be a pain to set time aside, but it can be done nonetheless.

Great proposals John. There's only one of the above proposals that I am really interested in, that's the one that eliminates the ability for a player in a time limit game to monitor changes in the high scores screen without it costing time/penalty. The ability to do this is pretty much irrelevant in non-time limit games, because they can just stay in the game and monitor the CLV if they chose to do so. So basically an option that effected time-limited games only would be sufficient.