Is that you sharkey?

Parrothead,
Pity there aren't more players like you. Most of them are whiners.

quote:Originally posted by Parrothead

I have enjoyed TW since the late 80's on and off over the years.(more off than on).RL gets in the way..and so played at the small BBS servers where i could run my turns a few hours on the weekend ctc.I am new the the fast paced new sytle game and new to scripting.In fact i got TWX 3 months ago.Scripting and learning something new has increased my enjoyment of the game 10 fold.However your complaints about scripts winning games is overstated.Playing a game at AB 3 months ago with a telnet client and stored macro's only I was constantly podded by a team running a kill script 24/7.I took great enjoyment out of being podded over and over watching for the reaction to various input untill i found the weakness.1)i triggerred there script over and over to run them low on gas...they tnen turned cannans down to compensate as they were running it AFK(I took Pods on purpose).Then after that i towed a corbo trap which they got with a cit killer type script and shield rode back to their base and wiped out the entire corp leaving them nothing but the pleasure of CBY apon reenty the next extern.This is just one example of many where reliance on scripts is foolish.Go ahead and write all the scripts you want because i will find a strategy to beat it or I will write a script to beat it....Remember its all in fun.


I agree with you here. I'm fairly new to the script phase. I still play my TradeWars relying on paper and pencil. Problem is the script is faster than my eraser

However, you are correct. It is all in fun, and being killed by someone using a good script only teaches you to look for a weakness. We all start out with some disadvantage, and only by learning, observing, and applying can we get better at the game. I've been hit with pdrops, and countless traps, and I learn, and never give up. Everyone has a weakness; if you know where to look. Mine is I need more paper

I like the logical direction this thread is taking.

* Take scripting out of the equation or else you have
a game for programmers only. That is fine if that
is what you want. But that will not support the
future of the wonderful idea that "was" Tradewars 2002.

* The game needs it own Windows (Linux) GUI client. I envision
a graphic representing my ship, moving about in a turn
based manner. When I want to colonize my planet I initiate
that option and the game automates it. Otherwise I will
lust for a script to take the work out of typing something
a thousand times! The automating could be instantaneously
and I see my turns drop and resources used, or I could watch
a nice "movie" of this happing. This way real time is taken
up. I don't care which at this point.

Let's keep chatting about this...

I don't think script speed has been a significant contributor to the success or failure of players/corps in games where people knew how to play the game. One can only send and receive data at a certain rate, and by and large, that barrier has been pounded on for quite a while now. I see these discussions about super fast photon scripts, smart defenders, and so on, and it just highlites the fact that the majority of players still think kill scripts and ultra-automation win games. Personally, while killing and reaction are certainly bedrocks of a competitive game, I think the scripts that provide the biggest advantage are those that provide information - not those that let you burst grid, or kill a planet buster, or predict the entry into a 2-warper.

By and large, the best teams are those that know the important things about the game environment. Port distribution, port types, enemy grid patterns, enemy grid times. Scripts that profile enemy base locations once found, that help predict the next location, scripts that find the most efficient manner of exploring the interesting parts of the universe. When Space Tyrants played, while we did have some custom built stuff, our twitch times and scripts were not what separated us from everyone else. What helped us (imo) tremendously was our data parsing scripts.

My point (if one can be found), is that while these speed-based scripts certainly provide a veteran a huge advantage over brand new players, limiting speeds and functionaly of scripts only cripples the middle to high-end games, because at that point in time, those speeds don't provide the advantage. The brilliance of TW was never the fact that it could be scripted - it was the fact that it allowed the smart player to start, advance, and dominate, not out of luck, but out of intelligence.

Laff. Reactive scripts (photons, killers) are fun. Especially when you're the target of them. Like there's this bug in a current popular photon script where it doesn't properly detect 1-way warps, attempts to fire thru them, but doesn't catch the trigger. Soo... the planet stays in the middle of space. Or there's this thing called "xport" that lets you get out of your ship before someone can torp you... you'd be suprised the number of people that still keep torping w/o a clue.

Scripts don't make good players, good players make scripts. Bad players just end up making scripts that fall apart in play and bad players using good scripts end about the same way. Just sucks to be a new player atm because all the best stuff is private, ya know. But if you stick around long enough that stops being a problem.

Diddy, I would love to hear more about your data parsing scripts. Anytime you're in the mood to share ideas, do hit me up. =)

pcunite, have you head about: TradeWars: Tournament (TWT) it is in the process of being built now, EIS is working w/ Sylien Entertainment, TWT is being designed as a GUI type game, you can more about it at: http://forums.tradewars.com

As, JP is requesting player input on the various aspects of the game. Also, JP advised that scripting is only going to play a part internally within the game, thus it would be advantageous for all users rather just those with the "good" scripts; as all users would have access to the same scripts that have been built into the game.

quote:pcunite, have you head about: TradeWars: Tournament (TWT) it is in the process of being built now, EIS is working w/ Sylien Entertainment, TWT is being designed as a GUI type game, you can more about it at: http://forums.tradewars.com

RexxCrow, thank you I had not heard. I have been away for a few
months. I will look into this.

quote:Originally posted by RexxCrow

pcunite, have you head about: TradeWars: Tournament (TWT) it is in the process of being built now, EIS is working w/ Sylien Entertainment, TWT is being designed as a GUI type game, you can more about it at: http://forums.tradewars.com

As, JP is requesting player input on the various aspects of the game. Also, JP advised that scripting is only going to play a part internally within the game, thus it would be advantageous for all users rather just those with the "good" scripts; as all users would have access to the same scripts that have been built into the game.



It sounds like TWT could become another "game in a box" if the only scripts are those built in. Buy the box, read the instructions and learn about what can be done (and can't) with the built in scripts.

Personally I like the challenge of coming up with something to counter another's script, and would have stopped playing Twars a long time ago if it wasn't for that challenge.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Any online competitive game is going to have scripting of some sort. You can't prevent people from running a proxy or alternate client. You can't prevent them from automating tasks on their end, people will do what gives them the advantage... and that means having better tools than the other guys.

Yea I agree with that, although I also figure TWT is going to be more focused on players whom are not so into making the game better using their own imagination and creativity themselves and would rather have it all done for them; now there is nothing wrong with that, it is just a different aspect or point of view; everybody is certainly entitled to theirs. TW is after all just a game and that will not change whether it is in GUI or old school ANSI. Those that enjoy TWGS have a developer’s mentality or a true interesting in computers and technology, which is what makes the TW community so unique.

TWGS will not be going away because of TWT, rather I say the smarty money is on it expanding, because I believe once TWT makes headway players that have never heard of TW before will be interested in checking it out and a large portion of them will get hooked. As well TW is a good learning experience for youngsters, both in the way of mathematics and learning the ways of computers and the Internet. So I say either way it is a good thing… I just hope that TWGS still sees some upgrades every now and then and other players take it upon themselves to work together to create some interesting front-ends, utilities, and extensions.

quote:Originally posted by Talon_Karrde

This game has survived a long time because the concepts were sound. What has evolved has been the method in which you connect to the game itself. In the BBS days it was difficult (but not impossible) to get a good script/macro tool. There were some around but they were unpolished and the BBS itself limited players to a local area in which most people did not have the skills to write their own anyway. With the flourishing of the internet came telnet protocols and the ability of people from remote corners of the world to connect and play Tradewars on a global level. With that influx of players came a huge increase in competition and the drive to give each person a competitive edge. That drive to innovate has left tradewars in the state it is today.
...

Well... the strength of TradeWars is the design of the game itself. The weakness of the game is the tedious-ness of the command system (which the scripts were first designed to fix) and the fact that the playing field is biased towards those with the tools. (as opposed to those with the skills)

...

Maybe you guys need to take a step back from TWX and look at the game itself and see what you're missing.

-TK
(Talon - Team FEN / BOTE2001)


Abbreviated that a bit, but this is a good thread for people to read!! I just came back to the tradewars universe about a week ago, and have noticed that yes, a few things have changed since the good ole days of 2400 baud (and here I thought I had *THE* advantage when the 14.400's came rollin around). I helped run a board, banged my fair share of universes, and even won some $$ at other local BB's who would throw down tournaments. The local appeal here (Oregon) was pretty big at one point. I remember having a ton o fun as a kid, and decided to revisit that era... to find the game in its new state.

I used macro's back in the day, and I think they were built in either Telix or Qmodem (that was a long time ago, cant which program I used for what), but they did give me my own photon script, and some other helpful additions. I enjoyed the game based on the strength and careful organization of corps - we all believed they make or break your game, obviously true. I have seriously enjoyed reading the forum threads in the places I have gone, Some of the articles on cabal were VERY well done, and the forumlas page? Wow.

Just in the forum reading I have done in the past weeks, some of the formulas that have evolved (IE all the forumulas to make the most cash on the least turns) HAVE turned this into a game of chess (which is Darn fun). PPT? SSM? SDT? I thought I was a baddass bringing in 15 million in a few hours back in the day (UNL turns), worldssm (TWXproxy) had me at over 200,000 million, and with 300,000 fighters also. incredible. The potential is here for a truly great game of strategy, so I am intrigued. I grabbed a copy of TWXproxy and here I went.

The first two games I tried had truces. heh, once those truces are up, the game gets quite brutal, hmm. In the third game I am now playing, I think I have a feel for how some of the scripts work (did some scripting with a game called Starseige tribes back in the day, but that... was different), and I am looking forward to making a couple custom scripts myself, since the TW community has an excellent resource base.

Now, for what its worth - I played with a LOT of people here in Oregon, and am curious if any of them made it this direction. Maybe this is a boring old text game (*cough*), but the essence of working together as a team in a good stratigical environment is still here, and hell, you can play it on a cellphone.

- Dave

PS - Some people have mentioned some good games to play where you can learn as well as play? I'd be interested....

NWChaos,
I'm in Portland. There are a few of us out here.

Unlims will get old fast. Turns games is where the real fun is.

I used to play tribes, that was a badass game.

Ah, almost nostalgic enough to install it and see if there are any ultra renegades servers still running.

OK, I'll input my two cents, and you guys can hand me my change I'm sure!
I played in the mid 80's without the aid of scripts, and macros were becoming an aid (at least to me). I wasn't in it as real compitition, but I could get in a game, and have fun with it for months, before someone finally "won" the game.
I got into this game again about 6 months ago, Trying to just not get blown up was a challenge untill someone asked me if I was using TWX or Swath. My reply "what's that?" was answered by someone helping me get the sofware, and helping me learn to use it. So my bad experience became a good one, and I've stuck with the game to have some fun. If nobody had stepped up, I wouldn't be playing now, and wouldn't be trying to start a server of my own.
Personally I don't want to see TW become a graphic game. There are lots of graphic games out there, and TW would just become another game.
We have to face that Scripting has become part of the game. I think it's here to stay. Personally I think we need to make the game more challenging to scripters. We need more options in the game it's self to make the game more flexable. We need different options on ships, we need maybe more sides to the game then blue or red, we need aliens to be more challenging, and more configurable.
Scripts have grown to meet the game challenge, but the game didn't continue to evolve so the scripts have won.
We need games on the net that are friendly to new players where maybe limited scripts are available, even if it's on the honor system that you don't run them. If you don't want to play those games, you don't have to, there can be other more challenging games for advanced and expert players.
Scripting should also not be limited to players. Why can't sysop's have game scripts that can make them more challenging. My game with a wandering planet is a good example. I took a script, expanded on the idea, and implemented it in a game. More scripts shoud be made for this end of the game as well.
In a nut shell, I think we need to advance the game to meet the level of the scripts being used.
I also need to learn to write scripts. I really can't find much information that can help me get started. Uncompiled, compiled, code, I know nothing of it. I'd like to learn if someone is willing to get me started.
If we advance the game, the scripts will need to advance, and we need to keep this cycle going.
Ok, I think I've spent my penny worth now. Stepping off my soap box now.