I am curious what others think about truce games, specifically: Can an unlimited truce game (2-4 days) end in anything other than a stalemate when two (or more) corps are fairly evenly matched in skill and players?

I know a lot is based on game edits so use Sub Zero as the model since it seems popular in unlimited games. Also a stalemate to me is that the corps are maintaining their bases and preventing invasion.

From what I have seen in several games, all it becomes is a gridding exercise. Planets are shielded by the end of the truce and have been fueled. Barring off-line invasions, I don't see anyone winning this type of game.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

When a game reaches this point then its time to begin end stage tactics.
1- remove ports
(if you dont use it destroy it)
2- start sector denial ops
(if the enemy cant grow they die, if you control 19,000
sectors and your enemys 1,000 they are in trouble. Also
the fewer jump points they have the harder it will be to run.)
3- position advance forces and fleets for the upcoming war
(some sysops call this a ship buyout, but if the ships are
shielded and figed and supported it dont matter there now
a battle fleet for war)
4- turn up the heat, make the enemy come out to "defend the grid",
or "there trade zones", when they do take there planets and ships.
eventually they will become immobile, if they cant run then they
will loose if you have the commitment to the game that it will
take

Unlimited truce subzeros w/ equal play (or a good builder on the first few
days) will usually end in stalemate most of the time. One of the reasons why
I rarely play subzero w/ truce, they can sit in their bubble and live there
generating figs and using multiple reloaders. If they're in a small tunnel
then you may be able to drain their ore down enough after having gridded them
out, then it's just getting into their sector and hoping for the best (And
being better prepared than your enemy). But if they're smart they'll build
in a big enough bubble to sustain themselves forever.

I've won similar games by gridding, locking down every sector and eliminating
every jump point "by area." Makes it hard to grid if they have to mow everywhere.
That has to be combined, however, with a ship or planet buyout as there's no
other way to keep them from coming back over and over. It's virtually impossible
to control the alien sectors for long since those figs get lost in the course of
alien movement, this makes the area around the aliens a potentially difficult
spot to keep locked no matter what your grid is.

The combination of a high gbonus ship, unlimited turns, and the planet prod
numbers make a subzero truce game very stalemate-prone. There are similar
edits that yield the same thing, star trek, star wars, and a handful of others.
Just goes to show that unlimited resource games either end quickly, or go on
forever... and ever... and ever.

Basically what sing described is the situation I have seen. Bases built with up to 600 planets in very large bubbles. I am currently corped with a player that is probably one of the 5 best I have seen at building/maintaining a base in an unlimited game (Ridgerunner). If we stay online, it will be nearly impossible for a corp to get through - simply stack the sector after extern and no one gets in. At exern, set the cannons to take out the attack ships and run a sector attack to kill the moths and pods.

The large bubbles that are controlled make a grid irrelevant since the cashing with ptrade matches what the reds would bring in (provided they would even stay alive). Large numbers of alien ships were capped by the corps prior to the truce ending and since there are rules against planet/ship buyouts and destroying dock, some of the end game strategies can't be used.

It just seems that truce games invariably are turning into boring, stalemated games when the corps are reasonably well matched. Without the truce, the noobs would not last long enough to build bases and some of the veteran players would get popped as we expect to be sometimes, but that makes it interesting.

Part of my concern is new players come in, play truces and build their bases. As the new player gets better they learn how to basically prevent invasions and then sit in their bubble. How long before these people decide there has to be more enjoyment in gameing than looking at messages "limpet mine in xyzzy activated" or "xyzzy is attacking", and decide to go play WoW or Eve?

k, my irritation with truce games is showing and I know someone will invariably say, "if you don't like truces, don't play them" and they will be right. I am just not sure if truce games are helping or hurting the future of the game.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Heh, I have to agree with Prom on this one.... I happen to be on the other corp in the game he is talking about, and its the same thing. I can produce whatever I need inside my bubble, with the only thing I need to leave it for can be found at 1/dock. Aside from gridding (which is pointless with multiple 200+ sector bubbles in the game) or working on invading (which is rather difficult when multiple players are online), what is the point? Heh. Don't get me wrong, I will play it till the end, and I have a few ideas, but it is kind of rough.. lmao

-Sb

Well all I can say is wait things are changing, the wonder of it all is about to return to twars.
I am not allowed to give a time frame of specific details.
I can say, this game is going to explode soon, and there will be $
to be made. and the game style you want to play in will be there, one new limitation will be,
(checks to see if I can say this....Time limits),
when its over he who has the most toys wins, stalemate will be a thing of the past.
Oh and a new trader ranking system is on the horizon.
So boys and girls get out the polish and the brushes and get ready for the parades : )

I think the aggressiveness, patience, and experience of the players combined with the teamwork and personal interest of the corporations has more to do with completing the game in a solid victory, then ending it in a stale-mate, then having or not having a temporary peace-treaty. Really, is 2-4 days really going to permit players to create a fortified stronghold anyways? I would lean to think it would only offer a few added days of solace, more-so then anything else.

Rexx, in the sub zero edits, the answer is yes. 4 days for a corp produces a pretty impressive base when you have players that take care of their roles.

A red cashing 24 hours a day for a 4 day period should come in at a minimum of 96 * 100M (9.6B) credits if my math is correct. The blues are building the base(s) in large bubbles and upping ports - and don't forget about what I consider the "alien bug" - let them create your product on the planets you pop to cap their ships (using defender bonus ships).

On the bases, I am not talking about a 5-10 sector bubble for a base, but as Sonic said 200+ sectors that are being farmed very efficiently. Fuel is not a problem and neither are fighters or cash as you have your own little galaxy.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Oh, yea I suppose unlimited's would be an exception to the rule for experienced players. Sorry, you know that didn't even cross my fragile little mind. [:O]


Would the stale-mate factor be more proned upon the actions of the indiviual corporations, i.e. one corp invades more then the other, while the other operates primarly within their secured universe building their assests, hence one is consistently buring up their assests, while the other is consistently building their's; (keeping it mind that for the most part invading costs more then defending), it would be a matter of time before one corp has gone beyond their breaking point, while the other has managed to create a reserve. This also assuming both corps are fairly even in their members and their cashing abilities, it really breaks down to the invade and defend factor, right? For the purposes of unlimited games, invading is a long process as well, which, tends to make it irritating, by not being able to claim the prize as quickly. Hence a stale-male is offered or determind.

I got tired of that game and will not play those edits again.
What needs to happen is the sysop needs to get rid of the Enterra bonus and make the truce till extern first day. Which means, bang, get in, at extern truce is over.
When you give people 3 or 4 days, you are asking for trouble.
You get people who know the edits and it will drag on forever.
There was a sysop that had these edits and he had the death limit off till truce end. That was fun.
So to make a long story short (too late), make the mentioned edits and I see it becoming a better edit and more winnable.

I am curious what others think about truce games, specifically: Can an unlimited truce game (2-4 days) end in anything other than a stalemate when two (or more) corps are fairly evenly matched in skill and players?

I know a lot is based on game edits so use Sub Zero as the model since it seems popular in unlimited games. Also a stalemate to me is that the corps are maintaining their bases and preventing invasion.

From what I have seen in several games, all it becomes is a gridding exercise. Planets are shielded by the end of the truce and have been fueled. Barring off-line invasions, I don't see anyone winning this type of game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen


Promethius...I would like to respond to your post, especially since most of the games on http://www.ultimatetw.com are truce games.

While some of our games end up in ties or stalemates, most of the time our games have a clear and decisive winner. Usually, when we announce game rebangs, we also post the last game winners for all to see. I would guess that stalemates only account for about 8% of our games. So much for the TRUCE=STALEMATE theory.

Also, generally at the end of a 3 day truce, if you start building immediately when the game is started, you will have a MOVABLE Level 4 planet but NOT a SHIELDED Level 5 planet. In our signature games as well as Subzero games, Level 5 shielded planets take from 2 to 3 more days and so, until shielded, these planets in my opinion are VERY open to invasion. The only way to get a shielded planet on our server during the 3 day truce period would be to CAP AN ALIEN PLANET, ie: Subterfuge Homeworld but you could not build one from scratch in that time period.

Sage

Just my two cents here, I know I'm still rather new to this community.

Truces to me, seem to be an oxymoron to the whole TW ideal. But it does give player a chance to build before open war ensues.

I think Prome was talking about a truce game where all players are basically equal, running the same scripts, and have generally, the same build patterns.

I know that as long as the truce is obeyed, it can give people who don't start right at bang, to get into that game and set some sort of fragile foothold (Map, explore, build, ect).

I know Sage is good at enforcing the truce as best he can, so kudos to him.

Sage.... 8% of games ending in stalemate? That would be 1 per 12 1/2 games and I am guessing that those that did not end in stalemate were due to corps that were of non-equal experience / skill level.

I am curious as to your estimation when the corps are equal as the few games I have played on your server have basically ended in stalemate when the corps are comprised of skilled players. The present Sub Zero game (game C) is an example of what I am talking about. Unless mega-corping occurs no one corp will be the winner (barring offline invasions which does not appear likely since each corp maintains a presence).

Capping alien planets in the vast majority of Sub Zero games takes very little effort. Granted, some of them get edited after bang and makes it more difficult.

Even level 4 planets in a 3 day truce can easily be defended due to the cashing of the reds. The Enterra defender bonus with reload is extremely costly to attack and if a cit killer of the right type is being ran, you will simply be podded with your ship capped. Against players who know how to respond to an attack, the chances are you will be SD'd.

Based on what I have seen the percentage of unlims with truces are somewhat higher than 8%. [Edit] Should have been percentage ending in stalemate... [/Edit]

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

The real problem that I have seen with unlims is that the first good team in has a very good advantage. If your team walks into an unlim just 2-3 hours later than another - the colos may be gone and the starting team has enough resources and a decent grid to start hunting you. It's an inevitable problem with unlims.

I like the idea of a short wait period so a later comer can have somewhat of a chance, but the question is: how long? There are so many variables that make a big impact in an unlim that it's a big dilema. If a team can put in just 2-3 hours of more keytime than the other for the first few days, that presents a challenge also. I'm on the fence about a truce period, but I definately do not think a truce of more than 12 hours from bang time would be a good idea if you don't want to end in a stalemate.

KA-BOOM

Stalemate = players unwilling to put the time in to end the game.

I see players wanting to play mutliple games, this is why your whineing about stalemates. If you picked a game and that was the one you wanted to win then invest the time to win it.

Of course when servers have 255 day deleation of inactive players it does make for a sucky set up as all a team needs to do is have a few" non-commited" players log in and set them up in guradians, and tow them around as needed to protect strategic areas.

Where as if the deleation of inactive players was 5-7 days you will find this wont be as big of an issue.

Also SubZero needs 1 additional edit to really make it a competitive game and that is the time allowed online per day needs to be set to 4 hrs no more.

When this happens everyone can say goodbye to that edits propensity
for stalemates.

No Matter how long of a truce it begins with.