I'd like to add that Talons scroll buffer problem had nothing to do with the script. I've had that issue before using qmpro, telemate, and even terraterm. Haven't encountered it using zoc yet though.

and really, once again akor, a good script, doesn't make a good player.

quote:Originally posted by Grazhoppa
Aside from the fact you didn't show until day 2, here's the problem with your logic:
......
Rammars Team SDT is a perfect cashing script, with only one flaw that I know of (which is why I prefer CK's). Aside from the fact that 1 player couldn't download, and 1 player was having scrolling issues, not caused by the script. Our script load was fine.
Whatever day I started, when Lord Talon said that SupG SST didn't work and you suggested cks or Xide's SST, I ICQed you and asked why you aren't using RammaRs Team SDT. You replied that you didn't have the cash for furbs.
quote:
My connection sucks, I had 3 unreliable reds, not because of scripts, but because none of them knew red play. Graz
I remember Lord Talon had trouble fake busting on whatever night I was on. His comment to me was that he lost the corp more money that night in fake busts than I did by creating too many planets in a sector before busting them. I also know that there are scripts that eliminate fake busting. They have the bust check built in. Therefore LT's problem was using inferior scripts:
1. Causing him to fake bust which in turn
2. Caused him to lose your corp money which in turn
3. Caused your corp to get behind.
From that day on your corp had to play catchup because of your script problems on that day.

sure I did:

Session Start (45338941:Akor): Mon Sep 26 19:41:39 2005
[19:41] Akor: Why are you SSTing rather than SDTing?
[19:42] [DE1]R1P71D3: we just setup for sdt.
[19:42] Akor: Do you have RammaRs Team SDT?
[19:42] [DE1]R1P71D3: we're not setup to use it yet
[19:43] [DE1]R1P71D3: need a blue, with commish, in twarpable ship
[19:43] Akor: k.
[22:10] *** You have been disconnected. Mon Sep 26 22:10:09 2005.
[22:13] *** "Akor" signed on at Mon Sep 26 22:13:52 2005.
[22:15] Akor: We need a blue here.

Again, speak of what you know, and make sure it's the truth

Him busting wasn't the result of the script, it was the result of the player not knowing how to use the script. No offense to LT, your the one that brought his name up. A proper player knows how to use the tools he has been given. It has nothing to do with an inferior script.

Yup, his fakes cost us alot, but that was not due to the script he was using. You overloading the sector on the other hand, not only cost you 2 deaths, it cost us our bubble.

nuff said.
graz

quote:Originally posted by Grazhoppa

sure I did:

Session Start (45338941:Akor): Mon Sep 26 19:41:39 2005
[19:41] Akor: Why are you SSTing rather than SDTing?
[19:42] [DE1]R1P71D3: we just setup for sdt.
[19:42] Akor: Do you have RammaRs Team SDT?
[19:42] [DE1]R1P71D3: we're not setup to use it yet
[19:43] [DE1]R1P71D3: need a blue, with commish, in twarpable ship
[19:43] Akor: k.
[22:10] *** You have been disconnected. Mon Sep 26 22:10:09 2005.
[22:13] *** "Akor" signed on at Mon Sep 26 22:13:52 2005.
[22:15] Akor: We need a blue here.

Again, speak of what you know, and make sure it's the truth

K. You didn't have enough money for commish and twarp ships then. Whether your reason was no money for furbs or no money for commish and twarp ships, the fact remains that you had no money to use the only useful cashing script you have named that Corp 1 possesed. quote:
Him busting wasn't the result of the script, it was the result of the player not knowing how to use the script. No offense to LT, your the one that brought his name up. A proper player knows how to use the tools he has been given. It has nothing to do with an inferior script.
graz

In a practice game I was in just before that, learning red cashing using a debugged version of SupGs SDT, I didn't ever make a fake bust. The script had a built in bust tracker in it. Only time I came close was when I manually stopped the script. After xfering to the ship that was at the port that wasn't the last to steal from and restarting the script, the script ran ok. No fake busts the whole number of runs that I made. Again, that was due to running a superior script that would check for fake busts. I you aren't playing with one of those you might lose money in fake busts which might cause your corp to lag behind the others in assets.

That is why your still considered a noob akor.

I don't expect my players to think the script will win the game for them. Because, it won't. You can depend on a script, no matter how fancy it is, but if you can't do it by hand, you can't be a good player A good player knows the game INSIDE AND OUT. If there comes a time where your in a game, where your corpmate can't use the same 'superior' script as you for one reason or another... I'd hate to see where you'd be

Now, if you'd like to get back to the subject, it's player rankings, not cracking on graz's team of 1 game.

Thanks

quote:Originally posted by Grazhoppa

That is why your still considered a noob akor.

I don't expect my players to think the script will win the game for them. Because, it won't. You can depend on a script, no matter how fancy it is, but if you can't do it by hand,
ROFLMHO. SSTing by hand? I've seen players having to move ships to other ports by hand..yes..but xporting, porting, stealing, selling, xporting, ect. by hand? You got to be joking.
quote:
A good player knows the game INSIDE AND OUT.
Throughout this whole tag game of posts I never once said scripts make good players. Only that to WIN a game you need cash. And to make the most $$$ red cashing, you need well debugged and tested red cashing scripts BEFORE the game. Therefore, no matter how good you are, unless you have good red cashing scripts you can't win the game.quote:
If there comes a time where your in a game, where your corpmate can't use the same 'superior' script as you for one reason or another... I'd hate to see where you'd be np. I'll email him one
quote:
Now, if you'd like to get back to the subject, it's player rankings, not cracking on graz's team of 1 game. Awwwww. Pleeeeease. It is so easy to trash that Corp 1 of that Simplemind Pirate's game.

Anyway, as I was saying, by Traitor's definition, an Elite would be a master of all aspects of the game. My contention is that scripting is an aspect of current Tradewars gameplay and therefore an Elite has to be a master of that too.

Now, in this series of tag posts, I've also been trying to point out that no matter how good or great you might be at gridding, hunting, killing, coloing, etc. if you don't have good red cashing scripts on hand you can't WIN the game.

Now I hope that someone else other than us will comment on that.

ok.
i hosted a game months ago.
it was a very very old school game.
the players who played that game, were some of the best in the game.
for the most part, they cashed by hand (and did most everything else by hand also)
they didn't need *uber red scripts* to play/win.

as for the game, a few day 1 and 2 problems, the fact that c2 never stopped recruiting, and that we weren't exactly (atleast i wasn't) taking it overly seriously, we really stood no chance.
not because your corp was better, not because you had "l33t skillz"
but simply because you had twice the turns we did (if not more)
you think if we were trying i would have wasted so many resources just killing pointlessly? no, i was attempting to amuse myself at the expense of the corp, which they actually encouraged, heh.
heck, on the last day when i was on the dock and u guys blew it. it takes more than 1 full load on my ship to cap an admiral. at 4cps, and multiple people gunning for me, i really didn't stand a chance in hell at living if i tried. (and it used alot of resources if i did)
i could have just twarped home and saved our figs/cash for the next day when the dock was back.
it was decided to just go for it
and i got suprisingly close heh


Slim

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

ok.
the players who played that game, were some of the best in the game.
for the most part, they cashed by hand (and did most everything else by hand also)
they didn't need *uber red scripts* to play/win.

Slim
So are you saying that red cashing by hand is a viable method of current Trade Wars gameplay?

Just a moment... recruiting was part of that game. Unlimited corpies, ya know. Recruiting is a game skill, networking and establishing friendships with other active players is very much an important part of this game. Instead of making up excuses about your loss, just admit it... that's an area you fell short on. Then, like I've had to do many times before, simply strive to do better next time. There's a lot of things you "could" have done, but didn't. Why? Because we had so completely demoralized your team that you were making decisions not to win. That too, is a game skill.

Jeeze. Whine, complain, excuse excuse. My 4 year old neice is smarter than this.

Anyway. Yea, you gotta learn to cash by hand sometimes. Not hard to type them in and do some basic math in your head. A macro is not by hand tho, and most people aren't going to bother with doing it all by hand even if they could since there really isn't much reason. Still, I must think that on a higher turns game... it would be a disadvantage. If you're trying to type everything in by hand, a script is going to do it faster. Which means cashing quicker, which means you're exposed in open space during a shorter time frame. There's also the human element, people get frustrated with complicated computer stuff. As the complexity increases the probability of someone messing up or just dropping out increases too. For that reason I think a good team leader and good reds do need to understand scripts, and need to understand them well (why they work, why they don't, when there are problems how to solve them, etc). Altho no script will win the game for you, it definately helps to mitigate your risk of losing.

Ck's is a good SDT script. Ram's team SDT is good too, but as a team script it's generally inflexible and can get stuck sometimes. I have a fixed version of supg's sst, sdt and furb that I really like. Provided your reds know how to coordinate their busts... I don't think it matters which route you go.

On another note... this thread got seriously hijacked. Is it over now, or are we going back on topic?

quote:Originally posted by Singularity

On another note... this thread got seriously hijacked. Is it over now, or are we going back on topic?

Not hijacked. Just in debate over whether scripting is a skill that the rank of Elite should know before that rank is bestowed on him/her. After an all-day chat, Slim still won't commit that red cashing scripts are better than red cashing by hand in all cases. The most I got him to commit to is that with players of equal strengths, scripts are superior. As for the topic of including the mastery of scripting language(s) as a knowledge requirement for an Elite, I didn't get around to that yet. It took all day to get what I got out of him so far. I've never been to Maine, but to get Slim to commit to a specific condition in Trade Wars where he doesn't (read: can't) say, "Depends on the edit" or "Depends on the situation", I guess it just as fast getting sap out of a maple tree there.

Well heres one for this argument.
The qualifications for being an "Elite" should not be a cast in
an iron mold of what a player should be, but rather a flexabile mold
that allows a player to rise to the best they want to be, not
haveing to fit to a mold of what others think they should be.
After all this is just a game.
AND
Only an "Elite" should grant entrance into the ranks of the "Elite"
anyone else is simply kissing tailfeathers.

Also there are alot of "Elite" players who avoid the limelight
because alot of the nonelite tend hunt them and this keeps them from enjoying a "peacefull" game, kinda like the gunfighter mentality of the old west.

Slim,
If it's the game I'm thinking of, the OLD SCHOOL game, then yes, I used macros to do my red work. With only 250 turns, it was actually faster to use macros than keep loading up scripts. heh.

Well. Discussion of previous games is off-topic and a hijack. But oh well.

I don't thinkm in all circumstances, that red cashing scripts are better than doing it by hand. If you have a game with only 300 turns, what advantage would there really be? I do think that the more complex haggles are probably a little more efficient than using a calculator, but quite a few haggles take more than 1 turn to sell off a load... so maybe not, either. Most circumstances tho, yea. I do think CK's SST+jet is going to a better job of SSTing than I would by hand. If for no other reason than it decreases the likelyhood of a serious brain fart mid-game (fake busting, whatever).

Scripts are a component of the game today. Elite? I have no idea what being an elite even means... aint even close. It's like trying to describe what's it like to be a major league baseball player when you're still in little league. I do think that "good" players should have a solid understanding of scripts tho, when to use them and when not to. But that qualification is not reversible... being a good player means understanding scripts, but just understanding scripts does not make you a good player. IMHO.

yes traitor, that is specifically the game i am thinking of.
the question:
is cashing by hand a viable option?
the answer:
depends on the edits
heh