I agree with exvex. I am a Paramedic in Texas and I know the mobilization of rescue operations started before the storm hit. I have several EMS friends who are there now working to help, and some are missing. I have volunteered to help refugees here in Dallas and have first hand knowledge of many things about this diaster. I also know you can't believe everything you see on TV. Instead of *****ing, why don't you find a way to help.

Well, here goes.
First, New Orleans' geography is poor to say the least. The city was, however, placed there more than 200 years before any of us were born. I expect that the tools and tech we have to determine how BAD that decision was is so far advanced as to be viewed as magic by the engineers of the period. I have some considerable knowledge of construction and have to say that options are limited for a fix. I know of at least one town in my area that has been moved due to flooding (and one that desperately needs to be), but both are around 1/500th of New Orleans' size. This is not a viable option as the town is too big and there is really no good place to move it to.
Raising the town enough to make it drain naturally is an option although a phenomenally expensive one. It would create thousands of jobs, but who would pay the bill? Also, we have backed ourselves into a corner by placing so much vital infrastructure right in the area. There would be no way to move that infrastructure without shutting it down for extended periods of time. Unfortunately, I believe we are stuck with New Orleans preety much as it is.

Second
I believe that response was beyond poor to the disaster. In the defense of those responsible, statistically, the odds were not in favor of this disaster happening. New Orleans has never taken a near direct hit by a hurricane of this size. Camille was just a pup by comparison of the damage inflicted. Further, those odds spurred the levy and pump designs, damage estimates, and evac senarios to be built around a much less powerful storm. Like 9/11, the marble hill nuclear meltdown, and many natural disasters (including hurricane Andrew which was still much less devestating than katrina)the various levels of gov't. weren't prepared because nobody ever dreamed it could happen until it did. I do believe that after the fact, gov't. at all levels were still slow on the uptake. I am told by a professional driver friend of mine that fema has been confiscating loads of supplies, sometimes forcibly, that were supposed to go to the national guard. I ask, how can the guard do its job when another agency is taking the supplies it needs to get the job done? That is on the head of the thieving agency, and it should roll.

Third
New Orleans' residents have been their own worst enemies. Many refused to leave, believing that whatever they had was worth risking their lives. Many lost that risk. In places of shelter, such as they were, they often turned on each other (I cite the reports of theft, rape, and murder in the superdome). And when those who would help did FINALLY come, they were met with gunfire from the very people they were there to rescue. You have not heard these things out of Biloxi, Gulfport, or elsewhere the hurricane hit. I really have to question what these folks are thinking or if they are thinking. (and yes, I do realize they are under HELLISH stress that I can't possibly imagine)
Lastly
These folks (and the ones elsewhere that little is being said about) need our prayers and our help. It will take a monumental effort on their part and ours to rebuild their lives but it can be done. If it isn't done, then this isn't the country I thought it was. It is not the Government's place to do the job. If we want it done right, then we will have to do it ourselves. It is the Government's station to govern, charity has always rightly been the purview of the private citizen and the Church, as it should be. There have been tremendous screw-ups in the handling of this. Heads will roll and should. There WILL be hell to pay for the blue million things that have been done wrong in this, but is now really the time to call that debt? Let us first help our own. After that is done, let us then make sure that those who can't do it right never have the chance to botch the job again.

Bravo, Cutter.
I have my own views about this, but you've summed the whole issue up succinctly enough to be representative of a great deal of us that still think rationally (without the "aid" of the newsmedia).

Why thank you, sir. I was expecting to get roasted, but I guess there is still time.
By the way, the media has been most informative in the last day or so. Given the reports of fema's handling of the relief effort, I believe my case has been made for me that the various levels of government should not be invlolved at all in the rescue efforts. Their efforts would be much better spent doing what they know, like keeping the peace and enforcing the law. They should leave the hard stuff like evac, medical treatment, and providing for refugees' needs to the civilian groups. I am certain that we are better at it. We might even be more effective at providing security for those efforts than government forces. They have so much more red tape to cut through than we do.
And again, thank you for the support.

The United States is a Federation, not a Nation State. The Federal Government has zero responsibility for amelioration, even in the case of natural disasters, in individual States. Read the Constitution.

New Orleans was an accident waiting to happen. Average, 7 feet below sea level. On the coast, in an area subject to hurricanes. The sea RISES during hurricanes. Combination of eye low pressure and other factors. In Biloxi, it rose 23 feet, and flooded places 5/6 miles inland that were ABOVE sea level. Similar in Gulfport.

I have nothing but sympathy for those whose lives were destroyed or lost, but to put blame at the door of Bush/Clinton/local politicians is idiotic, New Orleans is a dumb legacy.

It would be even more idiotic to set up a repeat. Spend hundreds of billions of dollars rebuilding a City below sea level? In Hurricane Alley? Even the Dutch could'nt make levees that would work in LA swamps.

Ok, first off, nobody is doubting the actions of the first responder personnel, the emergency response personnel, the public service personnel, and the medical nurses and doctors. They did what they were trained to do, what they were paid to do. Sure some officers ran off and I sure some of those will be found to have been killed from the storm (I even heard that a few have already committed suicide), but some officers are in it just for the money and power of authority; once one of those two elements were taken away, so was their motivation and interest to protect and serve.

The ones to truly blame are those that get saluted by passing military personnel as well as those that call their own press conferences; those are the only officials to place any form of blame upon, not the Mayor and not the City Counsel Members, (they may have blame placed on them do to how they decided to manage their Civil service workers, grant monies, and revenue over the long-haul, but that is not really relative to the actions that occured just prior to and after the hurricane struck.)

Secondly, FOX is basically a subsidiary to the U.S. government (yes the secret is out FOX, you guys suck!), so for them to even talk negatively about the actions of politicians is a major red-flag indicator that some people seriously screwed up.

Thirdly, There is a chain-of-command that must be followed, even by Governers, Secretaries, Generals, and Admirals. The Governer does not have control over Federal assets and agencies. Governer Schwarzenegger can't just wake-up tomorrow (assuming everything is business as usual), and declair Martial Law and then order Military troops to move in and takeover California. Just as a governer can't demand to have additional grant monies given to their state, it has to be applied and qualified for. Declairing Martial Law is a way of an Elected Official to say, Mr. President I can't control my state any longer with the resources available to me, I need you to send you're people in and get things resituated for me, please.

Fourthly, is that what we are all doing? Being irrational? To me the only persons being irrational are those whom are holding press conferences thanking each other, saying good job buddy, way to go! Meanwhile the estimated death-toll has been steadly holding at 10,000 now for almost a straight week, hopefully those numbers are way off. Even still for these officials to be saying these things to one another, meanwhile that same news cast is displaying images of dead bodies laying around all over those Cities hit by the hurricane, what is their real message they trying to get across to us? Are they really so bold and brash to esoterically tell us they are thankful for what has happened to those people? Are they happy for all the victims loses, for the misery they have indured? Is the losses that occured, being viewed as their own personal gain, as a nice diversion from the War already at hand. If they can just make the American people believe it was not the President's fault, he did everything in his power to...etc. etc. etc., same old story we have already heard from this Bush Administration, how many times now? I have lost count. Absolutely pathetic.

Finally, alright let me give you the breakdown. In one hand you have an out dated dike built for catagory three forces. Now in you're other hand you have a catagory five storm that you have been advised by trained field professionals who are using state of the art equipment which can even accurately predict future weather patterns through the use of intelligent modeling; now these professionals are all saying this storm is enroute on a direct course to you're other hand, (remember, we are referring to the hand that is holding you're outdated catagory three dike... oh you forgot, here let me help you to remember; the one that happens to be protecting a City with a one-plus million population, the one that is a national tourist attraction, the one that is based deep in diverse values of history and culture from the dike holding back passing water that is about 10-feet higher then the Cities flood line. You're memory all cleared up now, good.)

Additionally let us recall all the prior research done on this type of situation already, all the documents, reports, and manifestoes worth of informations covering the many facets and angles of the dire and truthful results of the situation now at hand. If this situation was one of the major forseable concerns brought forth for consideration, then all the more reason there should have been to repair that pending breech. Now relate this to the so called: "War on Terror", (now we all know how much those terror-scums love to use explosives); would it not be an extremely easy feat to just drive around blasting down levees and flooding major Cities in the middle of the night! So now we realize (hopefully) that we have another feasible reason to ensure our dikes are strong enough to withstand pending damages.

You want to throw around percentages and then turn around and say gambling is not something you would care to partake in, because you do not consider gambling to be a viable charactor trait residing within a good and moral person, then turn around and in the same breath gamble with the lives, jobs, and property of over one million of the citizens you have been hired and taken a sworn oath to protect, then I say you are a mornonic hypocrite and there is not place for you in a leadership role. Go "gamble" with percentages in your own closet, with you're own money, and on you're own time; let us live our own lives in a fair, respectable, and justly manner.

You do not however, tell large families of a very poor and under educated region to evacuate from a pending disaster, while under Martial Law and then except them to do it. You do not offer them public shelter and then leave them on their own to police themselves in an already chaotic condition without required human necessities.

quote:Originally posted by Kavanagh

The United States is a Federation, not a Nation State.
Wow, you mean to tell me all this time I have been singing "The Pledge of Allegiance", it was all just one big conspiracy designed to make me believe?

quote:Originally posted by Kavanagh
The Federal Government has zero responsibility for amelioration, even in the case of natural disasters, in individual States. Read the Constitution.
The moment any City, County, Federal, State employee (or otherwise) tells you to do or not do something and a negative occurance derives from that demand, instruction, or order they have just assumed liability to that resulting effect or consequence. Also it is the responsiblity of the government to "govern" to provide for and ensure the continued safety and growth of the citizens they are governing. This is done through the creation (ratification) and continued revision of laws, codes, mandates, statutes, memorandums, and policies.

quote:Originally posted by RexxCrow

quote:Originally posted by Kavanagh

The United States is a Federation, not a Nation State.
Wow, you mean to tell me all this time I have been singing "The Pledge of Allegiance", it was all just one big conspiracy designed to make me believe?

quote:Originally posted by Kavanagh
The Federal Government has zero responsibility for amelioration, even in the case of natural disasters, in individual States. Read the Constitution.
The moment any City, County, Federal, State employee (or otherwise) tells you to do or not do something and a negative occurance derives from that demand, instruction, or order they have just assumed liability to that resulting effect or consequence. Also it is the responsiblity of the government to "govern" to provide for and ensure the continued safety and growth of the citizens they are governing. This is done through the creation (ratification) and continued revision of laws, codes, mandates, statutes, memorandums, and policies.



The Constitution enumerates the powers and responsibilities of the Federal Government. I suggest that you read it. You would be surprised to find how limited they are, and how the Federal Government has gradually usurped power from the States.

Amendment X

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

You might be interested to read that Officers in the Armed Forces of the United States take an Oath to the Constitution, not to the Federal Government or to the President as Commander in Chief. That the US is a Federal Republic, as opposed to a Nation State, in no way implies that US citizens would be or are unpatriotic. I am not American. I have lived in the United States for many years and love this country as much as my native land. I do not know of any country with a more patriotic citizenry than the United States.

Ok, what is with this, death toll to date is just barely over 200, estimated is 10,000; (although nobody in charge seems to know were this number is coming from.) So some bright lightbulb orders up 25,000 body bags... is there something we all should know about? Is this the governments answer for future disaster planning? Freaking body bags, what the hell is going on?

Does anybody else feel that this figure of 10,000 is just some large number being proclaimed as a way to turn the deaths into a nonissue later on down the road? Meanwhile everybody is fully focused on the rescue efforts now, they throw out some huge outlandish number, that really has no apparent basis so once the executive inquiries begin afterwards that newly confirmed fractional number makes everybody feel all soft and warm inside because: "for awhile there it was in the tens of thousands." Thus, the shock value has already been completely dissolved and "except for the property damage, which could not have been avoided anyways, (actually a lot of it could have been, but they don't want anybody to know that either), it was not all really that bad afterall." But hey when you keep your head up your Butt most of the time, on those rare occassions when decide to pull it out things look better no matter how bad they are to others.

Originally posted by RexxCrow

and "except for the property damage, which could not have been avoided anyways, (actually a lot of it could have been, but they don't want anybody to know that either), it was not all really that bad afterall."

Are you smoking crack??? Did you see the pictures?

That was a hypothetical quote I guarantee that those under investigations will use in their defense, although not that bluntly of course.

Hmmm...during the middle of WW II there was a member of the House of Representatives named Harold S. Truman who caught the attention of FDR by calling together a committee to STOP war profiteering and and is remembered for having a sign on his desk during his Presidency that said 'THE BUCK STOPS HERE!'. Several administrations later that sign might read 'the buck goes through here'. During Clinton's administration he called together a committee to acess the highest dangers facing our nation and in the top 3 were a major hurricane hitting New Orleans and a terrorist attack against NYC following the bombing in the parking area under Tower 1 (I believe?). He looked for the best expert he could find to head up FEMA and his name is James Lee Witt. He was just hired by the city of New Orleans to work for the rebuilding along with his Vice-Chairman and Senior Advisor Gen. Wesley Clark.
Now...reason for my rant.... (Following Witt being fired by Bush as head of FEMA before it was folded into the new Office of Homeland Terrorism.

FEMA RECORD DURING THE 72 CRITICAL HOURS AFTER ANY EMERGENCY FOLLOWING HURRICANE KATRINA HITTING THE GULF COAST ::

1) USS Battan (helicopter/hospital carrier) with full medical
staff and 600 beds offshore from New Orleans and held back
with excuse Department of Defense had to authorize them .
They were allowed to go to work on the 3rd day.

2) WalMart tried sending 3 18 wheeler trucks filled with water to
the Superdome and they were turned away.

3) A convoy of trucks from Chicago tried heading south and were
the could send 1 truck.

4) 500 Airboat owners from Florida who have gone through several
hurricanes offered their help and were refused since it was a
matter of who was in charge of the jurisdiction.

5) Before Hurricane Katrina touched down our frontline response
teams from neighboring states (firefighters, police, medical etc
had been told to stay out as response had to be 'coordinated'.

6) The Coast Guard tried moving diesel fuel to the Gulfport/Biloxi
area and were told to stop (in spite of their well trained
teams who knew what to do).

7) RED CROSS and other teams were blocked from entering New
Orleans to distribute emergency food and water.

FEMA called on State Governors to turn National Guard over to
Federal control and thank God the governors refused.

9) FEMA confiscated several shipments of food, medicine and water
that were being sent to National Guard units.

End of rant and this is just the SHORT list!

Hmmm...during the middle of WW II there was a member of the House of Representatives named Harold S. Truman who caught the attention of FDR by calling together a committee to STOP war profiteering and and is remembered for having a sign on his desk during his Presidency that said 'THE BUCK STOPS HERE!'. Several administrations later that sign might read 'the buck goes through here'. During Clinton's administration he called together a committee to acess the highest dangers facing our nation and in the top 3 were a major hurricane hitting New Orleans and a terrorist attack against NYC following the bombing in the parking area under Tower 1 (I believe?). He looked for the best expert he could find to head up FEMA and his name is James Lee Witt. He was just hired by the city of New Orleans to work for the rebuilding along with his Vice-Chairman and Senior Advisor Gen. Wesley Clark.
Now...reason for my rant.... (Following Witt being fired by Bush as head of FEMA before it was folded into the new Office of Homeland Terrorism.

FEMA RECORD DURING THE 72 CRITICAL HOURS AFTER ANY EMERGENCY FOLLOWING HURRICANE KATRINA HITTING THE GULF COAST ::

1) USS Battan (helicopter/hospital carrier) with full medical
staff and 600 beds offshore from New Orleans and held back
with excuse Department of Defense had to authorize them .
They were allowed to go to work on the 3rd day.

2) WalMart tried sending 3 18 wheeler trucks filled with water to
the Superdome and they were turned away.

3) A convoy of trucks from Chicago tried heading south and were
the could send 1 truck.

4) 500 Airboat owners from Florida who have gone through several
hurricanes offered their help and were refused since it was a
matter of who was in charge of the jurisdiction.

5) Before Hurricane Katrina touched down our frontline response
teams from neighboring states (firefighters, police, medical etc
had been told to stay out as response had to be 'coordinated'.

6) The Coast Guard tried moving diesel fuel to the Gulfport/Biloxi
area and were told to stop (in spite of their well trained
teams who knew what to do).

7) RED CROSS and other teams were blocked from entering New
Orleans to distribute emergency food and water.

FEMA called on State Governors to turn National Guard over to
Federal control and thank God the governors refused.

9) FEMA confiscated several shipments of food, medicine and water
that were being sent to National Guard units.

End of rant and this is just the SHORT list!

Is there an echo in here? LOL

Earlier on the news tonite, they were saying that the FEMA director put down untruthful or misleading prior job experience on his resume.

FC is that info from the news or are their on-scene logs actually public record already?