For those of you that are interested, I would like to start a debate and hear your opinions on the impact that Wal-Mart is having on our country. To direct the discussion and give you some ideas to think about, I am interested in hearing what you all have to say about the following:

Do you think that Wal-Mart is *always* going to be cheaper than their competitors?

How do you feel about the shopping experience, such as helpful and knowledgeable staff, good layout of store, easy to find what you are looking for, speed of your shopping experience, good variety, etc.?

Do you feel that Wal-Mart is good for our economy? Why? Do you think that they provide quality jobs for employees? Did you know that an estimated 85% of all Wal-Mart jobs pay less than $7.50 per hour and that 75% of Wal-Mart employees do not have health insurane? Do you feel that Wal-Mart "gives back" to local communities as much as a local business would?

Are you concerned about Wal-Mart driving out local business? Do you think that if Wal-Mart *does* drive out local business that it's prices will be maintained or that they will increase? Do you feel that Wal-Mart is predatory with its' prices with the intention of driving out local business to gain market share/possible monopoly?

I guess, the bottom line of these questions is: "Is our economy better off with Wal-Mart or without Wal-Mart?"

I have a lot of information and research about Wal-Mart that I am trying to wade through. I would like to chime in from time to time on this discussion if it takes off, but I will wait for awhile to post my final ideas/theory/information until people have had a chance to post their opinions here first.

KB

quote:Originally posted by Kaboom

Do you think that Wal-Mart is *always* going to be cheaper than their competitors?
They're not ALWAYS cheaper in every case as it is, so of course not. Competitively priced, though, sure. They, like every business, dance the fine line between demand and markup at a given price point. The fact they can purchase items in such bulk as to have a lower cost gives them higher markups at higher demand points, though, which is what allows them to drive small business into the ground.

quote:How do you feel about the shopping experience, such as helpful and knowledgeable staff, good layout of store, easy to find what you are looking for, speed of your shopping experience, good variety, etc.?
I don't actually shop at Wal-Mart, since there are none in the vicinity, but I'll answer based on Target, since it's pretty similar. I personally find the staff nowhere to be found when I need any help, but can usually find things without too much difficulty. If I know exactly what I'm shopping for, I can be in and out in under 5 minutes. Selection is generally good but not great. Smaller stores with more focused merchandise tend to have greater varieties. e.g. An electronics store is going to have more types, sizes, and brands of various electronic items than Target's electronics section.

quote:Do you feel that Wal-Mart is good for our economy? Why? Do you think that they provide quality jobs for employees? Did you know that an estimated 85% of all Wal-Mart jobs pay less than $7.50 per hour and that 75% of Wal-Mart employees do not have health insurane? Do you feel that Wal-Mart "gives back" to local communities as much as a local business would?
Your research is obviously already biased toward Wal-Mart being BAD for the economy given the statistics you quoted. That said, I agree somewhat. I don't think they provide quality jobs at all, but they do provide quantity that there might not otherwise be. Most small businesses don't offer health insurance, either (as it is a very costly benefit to provide), but then again, most larger companies *except* those in the retail industry DO provide health insurance. Overall, how much is "given back" to the community is difficult to calculate. If Wal-Mart didn't exist, would the overall payrolls of the companies that would exist to fill its retail void be greater than Wal-Mart's total payroll? Hard to say. I think there would be less jobs which paid more per hour; the net effect might be a wash.

Without the Wal-Marts of the world, the standard of living of a middle-class individual would be higher, but more individuals would be jobless and thus lower-class. Basically, just as the proliferation of large companies shift the largest amounts of wealth to the smallest amounts of people at the top, the middle class is also made proportionally larger. Large businesses promote the sharing of less wealth among a greater number of people, a smaller pyramid with a wider base; small businesses promote a taller, leaner pyramid structure, with quickly decreasing numbers of people as you go up the income pyramid. Which is better? I guess that depends on how socialist/communist you are. And probably on whether you're one of those lucky enough to be in the upper- or middle- classes.

quote:Are you concerned about Wal-Mart driving out local business? Do you think that if Wal-Mart *does* drive out local business that it's prices will be maintained or that they will increase? Do you feel that Wal-Mart is predatory with its' prices with the intention of driving out local business to gain market share/possible monopoly?
Of course Wal-Mart and its ilk drive out smaller local businesses. That's quantifiable and obvious. The price breaks made possible by volume purchasing mean no local business can compete on more than a very product-specific level. By that I mean a local business may do batteries better and cheaper than Wal-Mart or Target, but people would rather just pick up their batteries in the checkout line on their way out with all the rest of their shopping for the week. Since Wal-Mart has already been in business for decades, and basically every small local business has already been driven out of most highly populated areas, but Wal-Mart hasn't increased their pricing in these areas, no, I don't think their prices are predatory. They are simply competitive. As long as they encourage the increase in size of the lower-middle-class barely subsisting at the poverty level, they also need to keep their prices such that their own employees can afford to shop there. Raising prices after creating the rather short pyramid mentioned above would be suicide, since no one would be able to afford the higher prices by then.

Well, that's my 14 cents (too wordy to be just 2 [:)]).

Wally World can provide a lot of items at low cost due to their ability to buy in extremely high quantities. They also, in my opinion do not pay very well. Most companies can play with their numbers and say that their average wage is X-amount, but they forget to tell you that they are including the extremely gross CEO salaries in their average. Companies need to show what the average, non-management employee on the floor is making when they talk about the jobs they are bringing into the community.

As far as Wal-Mart driving out the Mom & Pop businesses, that may be true unless the local businesses can find a niche market. Most businesses try to expand their market share by providing better prices/service/quality than their competitiors.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

I would like to first state that why is there so much hype regarding WalMart? What about K-mart, Super K-mart, and Target; they all have about the same store-to-store ratio. What about all the mega-food stores selling in bulk that have been popping up everywhere. Is everybody fixated on WalMart just because of it's constant media attention?


1st: Yes I do, WalMart will always be cheaper. This is the premise for the existence; the moment it stops doing so, is the moment this empire begins to faulter.


2nd: I do not expect them to be knowledgeable they are not exactly selling high-end equipment, as it were. Employees are friendly as you would expect any customer service employee to be.

I find that if you do not go to the store for say 1-month you will find that a large portion of the store has somehow been morphed into a different layout, given to the season of the year. This makes it annoying, because now you have to relearn where the items you are looking for have been moved to.

With exception to one WalMart I have been to all WalMarts are unkempt in appearance, items left in disarray, aisles blocked off, purchase items left on the floor, litter and spills covering the floors, customers damaging and/or pre-using items, etc.

I think they are slow, they have approximately 15-checkout lanes, although only 6-8 of the regular lanes and 1-express lane is open at any given time. I will not complain about the overcrowding issues as this what you would expect to encounter with any successful business.

I feel that the variety is limited and only occasionally chances. The good items are often "bought-out" within their first few days of being placed on the shelves and it takes too long form them to be replenished once they have ran out of a particular item.


3rd: I think our economy was fine before WalMart, should WalMart ever disappear our economy will not miss it. Remember, either way we still have those other nationalized stores to shop at!

I think they take advantage of their older employees, sure working an job for cheap pay w/o benefits is fine for the college student needing a side-job to get through school; but for the middle-age to elderly group, I feel that they should benefit more. Though I suppose it is amazing they even hire them. Although they do have more experience and not all us have lived fortunate lives, I feel it is wrong for a major corporation to take advantage of that.
On a sidenote: I have major issues with Target, they only seem to hire juveniles and still they have the nerve to charge high prices on most of their items.

I do not believe that WalMart gives anything back to the community that it does not get right back out in tax breaks and deductions. I feel it only takes from our community for every WalMart that drops down on an empty lot, an entire blocks worth of businesses goes out of business. The money that businesses makes goes to government whom then use that money to in ways that do no really make a difference to the average citizen. The government then turns their back and leaves each affiliated agency to beg for donations from other business owners as well as citizens, whom are busy working at WalMart for that $7.50 an hour pay check. I ask were is the justice at Mr. WalMart? Other then consisting as a conglomerate corporation local businesses would operate exactly the same as WalMart, so it would not really have much of a net impact for either the government or the citizens of that City either way.


4th: I feel that if a business is going to fail it will do so eventually, the presence of WalMart will only hasten the kill.

WalMart will only be able to force higher prices once there is no majority competition, i.e. no other places left to shop at. Until then they will have to maintain their premise.

No I feel that their prices are simplicity itself, it virtually guarantees their survival and outright sprawl. Any national corporation can be considered a form of a monoply, because there are so few of them that actually exist within a given market.


5th: WalMart is there because people want it to be, that is why everytime you go, you have to park way out towards the back or drive around for an hour to get a front spot (slight exaggeration), that is why it takes 20-minutes just to check out. Keeping in mind though if there was no WalMart we would just be going to another store to shop, because we are aftreall a nation of brainwashed consumers. Overall WalMart would have little impact on our economy, WalMart is now was K-Mart was back in the 70's and 80's. If it was not WalMart that we are all shopping at it would just be some other store that would evenually strive to become a hybrid of WalMart, thus all those employees making slave pay would be ensured a job without benefits, at least if for awhile longer.

quote:Originally posted by Xentropy


Of course Wal-Mart and its ilk drive out smaller local businesses. That's quantifiable and obvious. The price breaks made possible by volume purchasing mean no local business can compete on more than a very product-specific level. By that I mean a local business may do batteries better and cheaper than Wal-Mart or Target, but people would rather just pick up their batteries in the checkout line on their way out with all the rest of their shopping for the week.

You make a very interesting point. In most circumstances, Wal-Mart is able to negotiate better pricing than almost all of their competitors. I belive that they use their size and direct marketing to drive home the point that they are "rolling down" their prices. The part of your statement above that I find interesting is that you think that consumer preference is to "just pick up" the batteries because they are already there - but that the consumer could get them cheaper from another place - perhaps a Dollar Store.

Can I ask you to clarify something? Do you believe that after your entire shopping cart is full - batteries and all - that you have still saved a significant amount of money shopping at Wal-Mart (Or Target) vs. a local competitor?

KB

One thing you left out of your survey is the Quality of the products. Every time I have shopped at Wal-Mart, the product I got never lasted very long, the Futon I got broke 2 weeks after I got it, the computer chair I got, the arm came apart 3 days from the time I got it, and I won't go into the airconditioner. Let me put it this way it puts out the warmest air of any A/C's I have ever bought.

quote:Originally posted by Vulcan

One thing you left out of your survey is the Quality of the products. Every time I have shopped at Wal-Mart, the product I got never lasted very long, the Futon I got broke 2 weeks after I got it, the computer chair I got, the arm came apart 3 days from the time I got it, and I won't go into the airconditioner. Let me put it this way it puts out the warmest air of any A/C's I have ever bought.


Did you check to see where the products were made? There is a big push from Wal-Mart on its' suppliers for lower prices, so many of them have setup shop outside of the country for cheaper labor. If I were a supplier trying to win a Wal-Mart contract, I would also try to trim my quality control payroll down - so that may be part of the problem.

I see this pressure from Wal-Mart on its' suppliers as a major reason for loss of high paying manufacturing jobs in our country. After all, they are the largest retailer in the world. To give you an example, look at our ailing office furniture industry. Steelcase, Herman Miller, Hon, etc. are the largest manufacturers of office and home office furniture in the world. In the past 5 years alone (well before 9/11), this industry has laid off more than 35,000 manufacturing jobs in the state of Michigan alone (Michigan Dept of Commerce, special report to the Governor, 9/2004). At the same time, similar products such as Global, OFM, Sauder are appearing on the shelves at mass merchandisers and eating up market share.

I don't know if you supported the economy of China, Taiwan, Mexico, South Korea, or any other country with non-existant labor laws I am forgetting about with your chair purchase, but my hunch is that you did.

You raised a very, very good point Vulcan.

KB

KB

quote:Originally posted by Kaboom
Can I ask you to clarify something? Do you believe that after your entire shopping cart is full - batteries and all - that you have still saved a significant amount of money shopping at Wal-Mart (Or Target) vs. a local competitor?
In my opinion, each individual item purchased could have been found at a better price somewhere else. Think of it this way: WalMart has the buying power to volume purchase some of everything. However, even a small mom-and-pop has the buying power to volume purchase ONE TYPE OF THING, perhaps even to a greater extent than WalMart. Batteries were just an example there. A television store can beat WalMart on televisions; a grocery store can do the same with food; etc.

That said, especially with the way gas prices are going, driving all over town and making individual stops for every item on your shopping list may still leave you behind just making one trip to "Wally World" and taking care of the entire list in one fell swoop, even if you'd have to pay 10% per item more at Wal-Mart. Add to that the value of time, and especially in the modern world of instant gratification, convenience can beat out price as well. This is why smaller items in particular have become the domain of the discount store. Saving 10% on a TV by going somewhere else makes a lot more sense than saving 10% on a tube of toothpaste. The time and fuel expended stopping at the drug store on the way home from Wal-Mart to get the toothpaste is more valuable than the 20 cents you'd save.

Well at least my Motorcycle is American made!!!

This I know myself, and wouldn't have it any other way.

And it is cheap on gas, which helps due to the way the gas prices are being gouged on us.

Vulcan dont want to burst your bubble, check your front end supension
Japan is the only maker of Forks for motor cycles in the world.
Your Harly has Japan forks! ask your dealer.[B)]

quote:Originally posted by Vulcan

Well at least my Motorcycle is American made!!!

This I know myself, and wouldn't have it any other way.

And it is cheap on gas, which helps due to the way the gas prices are being gouged on us.



What are you drining? The only American made motorcycle that I can think of is a Harley Dadvidson.

Harley Dadivdson RULES!

quote:Originally posted by Xentropy

In my opinion, each individual item purchased could have been found at a better price somewhere else.
[/quote)

I am glad to see that people realize this.


[quote}
That said, especially with the way gas prices are going, driving all over town and making individual stops for every item on your shopping list may still leave you behind just making one trip to "Wally World" and taking care of the entire list in one fell swoop, even if you'd have to pay 10% per item more at Wal-Mart. Add to that the value of time, and especially in the modern world of instant gratification, convenience can beat out price as well. This is why smaller items in particular have become the domain of the discount store. Saving 10% on a TV by going somewhere else makes a lot more sense than saving 10% on a tube of toothpaste. The time and fuel expended stopping at the drug store on the way home from Wal-Mart to get the toothpaste is more valuable than the 20 cents you'd save.


You also make an excellent point here with the value of time. I believe that retailers need to make every effort to make your shopping experience quick and easy. The breakdown in the Wal-Mart plan is that they are so focused on low prices that they cannot even staff their checkout lanes well enough to get you out fast. The last time I went to Wal-Mart, I waited 15 minutes in the "Express - 8 items or less" lane and another 5 mintues walking around the massive store finding what I needed. For convenience shopping, I believe that Wal-Mart gets a poor grade.

KB

But most people are concerned more with prices than anything else. Altho
on average, their prices are not too much lower than the competition.
They just know how to make them appear that way.

I Love Harley Dadivdson. But I Wish Santa would get me a Buell.

Just to clarify there are "American made" customized choppers manufactures all around the U.S. i.e. West Coast Choppers, East Coast Choppers, etc. Also "Springer" front ends are 100,000,000% American made! Which can also be used on Harley Davidson bikes, to "customize" them; which is afterall the point of owning a motorcycle, to stand out, to be you're own person, and be an individual. Which ironically enough is akin to the American spirit.