So Xentropy, I will bang a game with ship delays, full delay or whatever. No gold aliens. But I feel that still with scripts that will be also overcome. Like Pwarp doesn't have a delay I think no matter what the ship delay is. I also run my server with 4 commands per cycle and in an old post somewhere I was reamed for that cause it slows down scripts. I think it was Slim that said something to that affect. Anyways it will stay at 4 commands per cycle. Your about the only one that I have ever heard that wants ship delays. I play on a server (old bbs) that has full ship delays. I use basic scripts that come with swath like E-probe and colonize. Other than that I attack by hand and explore by hand. And when I find the person I am looking for I might use macro for photon, but the photons are set at 10 secs so I really do not need a macro to invade. And I am one that HAS to loo at keyboard when typing as I never had keyboarding in school like my kids. That is on reason I quit playing GODWARS MUDs cause I can't type fast enough to defend myself or attack.
Anyway, let me know, ship delays, 1k turns 1k sectors? No special gold anything. I like the old ferrengi and Aliens...


Bethel

What's the big deal? It's just a server side option. If some people don't want to play TW as a twitch game, and don't want to have to depend on the honour system and house rules, and the technology is there, why not add the option?

It's not like TW can afford to turn away players at this point.

Alright, well I'm happy to know that I was mistaken and that all snottiness was unintended. And yes, Stretch is a jerk. At least we can agree on that much

If you truly do not believe that either side is wrong (and I personally feel the same way. Its a subjective issue, therefore no real right or wrong exists), then I would ask you to more carefully police the language of your posts. This thread was started in the first place because many people stating views similar to your own do so in a way that is clearly derogatory to those of us who use scripts. The sum of my original post was play how you want, just quit telling us that we're jerks for using scripts.

As I've repeatedly said, I do like chess and I find TW (even with scripts) to be very chesslike in nature. And I'm sorry, but I feel that he snottines in this quote was definately intentional:
quote:Ah, nice, "you're not like me so your opinions are less valid"? I can't even respond to an implication that rediculous. The fact you don't think TradeWars can even BE a chess style game proves to me your opinions are just as ill-informed by your logic since you haven't given one of my games a sufficient try either.
It is a simple truism that you cannot honestly portray the nature of anything without full experience of it. I never once said that you had to believe like I do to have a valid opinion. I said that you need to have more experience with what you're criticising. I've also stated my opinion that script use makes the game even more strategic a nature. A lure that someone interested in purer strategy might find intriguing but you apparently dismissed out of hand because you seem to be convinced you are already aware of the full spectrum of what TW has to offer. In fact, I HAVE played games with ship delay on. I've even played some that I really enjoyed, but generally I find ship delay annoying, and not just because of its vulnerabilities. I'd also like to reiterate my previous questions. What do you feel that ship delay adds to the game, and why is it necessary?

As to dodging photons in a ship delay game, its slightly more complex than in a game without ship delay. If you're not aware, ship delay games are relatively rare in practice. In a game without ship delay, a simple macro like "mXXXX*r" where XXXX is the sector number will trigger the photon script, while virtually guaranteeing your safety from it. In ship delay games and specifically for pdrops, calling saveme or something similar would do the trick quite simply and nicely. Just having a planet in sector with you doesn't automatically kill you. You could have a corpie bring in your own planet and sit quite comfortably on the planet, safe from harm. PGridding, as this is called, is a fairly common tactic and is reasonably safe. If you did get photoned, you would be safe from being killed. 2 ship gridding, such as Harley recommended is another viable alternative. There is no delay on Xporting, so that speed can be taken advantage of to counter the speed of a pwarp by Xporting to a different ship. Nothing is completely without risk, but if it was perfectly safe to do whatever you wanted, it would be called just Trade instead of TradeWars. In a ship delay game, you would obviously want to use these tactics with a low tpw ship to minimize your risk.

Comparing my stance to pedophilia was an exceptionally low blow and a cheap logic trick similar to what I would expect Stretch to use. If you wish to dissociate yourself from him, such cheap grandstanding will not help your case. In some cases, it is possible to form valid opinions without extensive knowledge of the subject. But those opinions will always be limited by the scope of your knowledge. To my mind, this is a simple fact. If you only have partial knowledge of a subject, your opinions are limited and some of your conclusions will be suspect. If you disagree, please try to make that clear and show how and why you disagree without associating me with sex offenders.

I have experienced games of the sort you prefer and of the sort I prefer. I have found equal but different levels of strategy in them both. You are only seeing the ways in which a lack of ship delays limits a strategy, not seeing how it can expand it in other ways. Yes some options are removed, but new ones are added. Likewise, some options available in a regular game are not available in the ship delay games that you prefer. It balances out. Contrary to your statements, I find my style of TW play to be extremely similar to chess, and that is one of the aspects I most appreciate it for. If all I cared about was frag counts, I'd be playing FPS games. I'm here because I see something more in TW, and I don't appreciate you continually trying to portray me as some short sighted adrenaline junkie who can't look beyond kill count to see strategic possibilities.

If you disagree with me, fine. It takes all kinds and I sure don't have exclusive rights on how TW should be played. But I've tried to show you a basic level of respect. I'm not nearly as against your viewpoint as you seem to think, and don't appreciate being button holed in insulting ways.

quote:Comparing my stance to pedophilia was an exceptionally low blow and a cheap logic trick similar to what I would expect Stretch to use. If you wish to dissociate yourself from him, such cheap grandstanding will not help your case. In some cases, it is possible to form valid opinions without extensive knowledge of the subject. But those opinions will always be limited by the scope of your knowledge. To my mind, this is a simple fact. If you only have partial knowledge of a subject, your opinions are limited and some of your conclusions will be suspect. If you disagree, please try to make that clear and show how and why you disagree without associating me with sex offenders.
I never compared YOU with sex offenders. I used that example because it's recent news and fresh in everyone's minds. I really have NO idea why you would take the example personally; it is completely removed from the scripting topic, but makes the point that I disagree with your stance:
quote:It is a simple truism that you cannot honestly portray the nature of anything without full experience of it.
...that an opinion about something is more valid if you have experienced it. I think opinions without experience are just as valid as with. A better analogy is that I already know I would not enjoy being chased by a bear without having to go through that experience. It would involve the same adreneline rush as a game of CodeWars. I tremendously dislike such feelings. Another point we'll have to agree to disagree on.

quote:I'm here because I see something more in TW, and I don't appreciate you continually trying to portray me as some short sighted adrenaline junkie who can't look beyond kill count to see strategic possibilities.
Wow. This will be my last post because you're beginning to take my comments very personally and defensively, regardless of my intent, a sure sign that the debate is coming apart at the seams. But I need to clarify myself one more time because hate being misinterpreted.

You are not an adreneline junkie. You obviously appreciate strategy or you wouldn't be making these posts. However, you just as obviously enjoy the adreneline rushes as much as the strategy, else you wouldn't prefer the type of game you do. What you DON'T appreciate is that there is equal strategy in my style of game, all without having to subject myself to the adrenal parts of the game. Removal of the adreneline does not remove strategy, it merely changes it, as you say, and removal of the adreneline is a positive change for some of us. CodeWars is the perfect game for someone who likes both factors in equal measure. Some of us hate to feel tense over nothing, however, and we'll stick to games without pdrops and without the possibility of 15 incoming simultaneous attack waves from a macro due to lack of ship delays...

...which is why ship delays are necessary, by the way. Ships have limited fighters per wave for a reason. That reason is removed without delays since AY6000^MAY6000^MAY6000^M effectively ignores the 6000 per wave limit and gives you a single wave of 18000 for all intents and purposes. I prefer EVERY ship statistic to have an effect on its balance.

Edit: Since this will be my last post, I'll sum up real quick. Obviously neither side is going to change its mind, and that was (I hope) not either of our intentions anyway. However, it's nice to get the facts and opinions straight as to WHY each side feels the way it does. Opinions are meaningless to everyone without a basis of understanding WHY someone feels the way they do. Hopefully this debate has opened the eyes of everyone as to the way of thinking of each side of the argument and at least helped us to get along better and refrain from the sorts of sniping attacks that earlier in the this thread as well as other threads have suffered from.

We can get along just fine in a segregated fashion. If there weren't any griefers, I'd never have need to complain, since I could publically advertise my games, make the rules clear, and not have to worry. Unfortunately, the human race is not that evolved yet, so for now the segregation needs to be enforced through secrecy. It's a pity, and perhaps one day server limitations to the exploitations of the griefers will make it unnecessary.

Thank you, Psion, for remaining civil for the most part. And apologies for the analogies I used which you thought I was attributing to you and not using metaphorically.

Peace. [:)]

Psion,

I use scripts as well, when they suit the need at hand and try to fight by hand, but have had to resort to using a script a friend made to save one from a QK script or a PDrop script.

I like to play mostly by hand, cause I can type fairly fast, but I see no wrong in using scripts myself, and I feel the same you do about the bashers. This info goes to the bashers as well.

Now if you had a script that saved your hide from a offensive combat script, you probably would use it in a heartbeat.

Because it can get you out of harms way faster than you could, like I said I type fairly fast, but use scripts when the need arises.

To me the scripts represent an evolutionary jump in the game, like the macro's were when I first learned to play many, many years ago.

The point is the game is going to evolve and gameplay with it, in order for people to stay competitive in game they need to learn to adapt their play to include the new things that become availible and not be closed minded about trying new things.

The old saying " Try it you might like it!" comes to mind. People don't be afraid of change, all it is, is just that, change, it is going to happen whether you want it to or not.

Vulcan

Akor here with a shameless plug about my new thread called "Scripts, Bots and Bugs in Tradewars". Much of what was discussed in these 4 pages I hope to discuss with you all in that thread. So, any want to hop over and join in? Anyone.....game? <HOHO! HAHA! I love my jokes.>

My 2-cents worth is focused on the games themselves that have been generously setup by the SysOp/GameOp, these give the player obvious clues as what type of user strategy should implemented (basing off of the games description.) For example: games with low turns, low time limits, and low sector counts are favored by those that wish to play w/o scripts or helper assistance, this is because it allows the users to compete against the other players without having to worry about being rundown by hardcore scripters or by being out played by a player whom has no other obligations to meet, (i.e. behing homebound or having computer access while at work, etc.)

On the other hand high sector games, no turn/time limits are more for those players that enjoy scripting. Keep in mind that in these types of games scripting itself it the real challenge of the game, the majority of TW players have one thing in common, they are computer savvy, that is why they are playing a text game and not Space Invaders 5050 (or whatever) on the good ol' X-Box or PS2. All the players that do not enjoy scripting or are intimited by it, perhaps you should take some time to learn how do it (just start small and keep it simple.) I guarantee you find it to be fun and challenging, until then remember that all those low turn, low time limits, and low sector games are there specifially for you; those with no turn limits, high time limits, and high sectored games are for those that enjoy scripting.

Keyboard punchers have no business in these types of games (not because your poor players, because 20,000 sectors is way to many to manually explore it would take years to accomplish that feat, in-fact experienced manual players would give any accomplished scripter a run for their money in a no-scripts allowed type of game.) Just as scripters have no business ruining a game for those that enjoy playing the old-school way. Both types of players should have no trucks with each other about what their preference is, one is not better then the other. Lets all keep in mind that playing together does not mix and will never mix, a scripter will always dominate a game over a non-scripter.

The bigger issue here it the continued advancement and support of TradeWars 2002, this is what should be the goal of both classes of players, the game that both types of players are heartened to and enjoy, (just one more thing that in the larger spectrum of things we both have in common.) Really we need to set aside our petty differences and keep positive towards each other, we do not have the fanbase to keep our attentions focused on things that are really non-issues to begin with!

P.S. I love Xide and im going to marry him!! Martini's for everbody!! [:P]

Zilla,

I see you are back to using the Mini Me avatar

The reason I was offended by your analogy is because its implication is that the evils and supposed lack of strategy in attack scripting games are as heinous and easy to spot as the inherent evil in pedophilia. Thats a pretty offensive comparison in my book.

Regardless, I see that Bethel has kindly offered to bang a game for people with your view of TW. The only problem I see with that is that if I remember correctly, ship delay is a global setting and so would cause problems with Bethel's other games. Maybe some other sysop will donate their server to host an openly advertised non-scripting game to see if it would actually be hijacked by anyone in the current TW crowd. I'm pretty sure you would be left alone, but we'd have to see.

And opinions ARE more valid when you have firsthand experience. Being chased by a bear COULD be the best thing in universe. Its doubtful, but possible. You don't actually know and neither do I. I thought sushi would be gross and told people for years that eating raw fish was revolting. Then I tried it, and now I realize how wrong I was. Without direct experience you can make a logical assumption, which may in fact be correct, but you cannot say with certainty.

Yes, I think you have been insulting in some ways. Not as bad as Stretch, but insulting nonetheless. And I do sometimes take insults personally, who doesn't? Its entirely possible that no insult was intended, but when text is the sole medium for communication misinterpretation can be easy.

I still don't think its a needed change, and I still think you have closed yourself off to the different level of strategy that exists in regular games, but those are certainly your choices. Best of luck getting your changes implemented (as long as they're options that can be disabled [;)]). My offer remains open if you ever change your mind.

Oh, and do me a favor. #sd# Stretch for me

I posted my shameless ad 4 hours ago. I have been watching. The visitors have looked at this thread and completely neglected to look at mine. <Grumble, grumble.> Thats kinda like the reception I got when promoting the game. Maybe it is because I have "newbie" underneath my name. When am I going to get promoted? Haven't I posted enough? Sorry, off-topic. Anyway for the best in posting change channel to my thread. It is "Scripts, Bots and Bugs in Tradewars". It's sure to make a hit this holiday season (4th of July, for the Canadians' infomation).

Sorry Akor, but I think we're all pretty sick of talking about this stuff by now, I know I am.

quote:The only problem I see with that is that if I remember correctly, ship delay is a global setting and so would cause problems with Bethel's other games.

Does this mean that if you have several games running on the same server, each game inherently shares the same delay penalties, you cant have individual variations for each game? If thats true thats totaly weak, dude! [V]

Yes Vulcan, I was in a mood to switch for a bit, when the world crashes down on me I hide in my little Avitar.

quote:The reason I was offended by your analogy is because its implication is that the evils and supposed lack of strategy in attack scripting games are as heinous and easy to spot as the inherent evil in pedophilia. Thats a pretty offensive comparison in my book.This is why the laissez faire capital analogy works. There are no good and evils, just different ways to administrate the economy. However, this thread pushes me to believe arguing based on analogy is hardly perfect and far too often the added slippery slope takes the topic away into this realm of what is fundamental. I would add that while I don't necessarily feel this way, some would point out when you are finding evil in pedophilia you are making some a value judgement on something objective (medical doctors often feel this way). Tradewars is neither good nor evil (except the character you play). Rule changes don't condemn you to hell for having used leeway within the old rules. They simply modify something that does not possess right or wrong value judgements to begin with. Back to something tangible.. As a sysop I am only asking for the option to be available. Its just a game, not a holy war. Let people play how they want to play.

quote:Originally posted by Stretch

quote:The reason I was offended by your analogy is because its implication is that the evils and supposed lack of strategy in attack scripting games are as heinous and easy to spot as the inherent evil in pedophilia. Thats a pretty offensive comparison in my book.This is why the laissez faire capital analogy works. There are no good and evils, just different ways to administrate the economy. However, this thread pushes me to believe arguing based on analogy is hardly perfect and far too often the added slippery slope takes the topic away into this realm of what is fundamental. I would add that while I don't necessarily feel this way, some would point out when you are finding evil in pedophilia you are making some a value judgement on something objective (medical doctors often feel this way). Tradewars is neither good nor evil (except the character you play). Rule changes don't condemn you to hell for having used leeway within those rules. They simply modify something that is not right or wrong to begin with. And as a sysop I am only asking for the option to be available. Its just a game, not a holy war. Let people play how they want to play.

Laff. Yes, I made a value judgement when labeling pedophilia as evil. Are you disagreeing with my judgement? Double laff. You say how true your analogy is, then say argument based on analogy is imperfect. Triple laff.

Go back through my postings and count how many times I've said people can play how they want, then shut up and go away. Counting variations on the theme, I count 10 times in this thread. Have a nice day