quote:Originally posted by Xentropy

Thanks, Harley. I agree 100% with your post.

As to whether John's ideas for v4 will work, I think just fighter reports being delayed 60 seconds would go a long way toward fixing the problem with twitch-reactive scripting. We'll see, though. Hopefully. [:)]

What happens when you're out cashing and someone kills a fighter next to you? They have a full minute to come and kill you before you're ever alerted that they're there. Even with varying delays based on distances from your location, you can still run into problems like this.

quote:My point is that I don't believe there is a need for a game specifically structured to be without non-utilitarian scripts. If people don't want to play with scripts thats fine, but I don't see the reasoning behind changing the game to enforce your personal standards of honor or good gameplay. There are some settings that can be changed to make a game less hospitable to scripting and if it was clearly stated in the rebang posting that the game was specifically for non-scripters, I don't see many scripting players showing up just to ruin it.
They do and have. I'm part of a little group of about a dozen folks who play on a couple of private servers. We tried advertising once, and despite saying scripts were not allowed, we got two responses that taught us never to publically advertise again. One, one or two scripters showed up in each game just to show us that we're all n00bs and we suck because we don't script, completely ruining the games and making us move the servers to new IP's. Two, in the advertising posts themselves, we had to put up with flames from the scripters saying our servers suck if we don't allow scripting and we have ship delays turned on, which just turns off people to the games we were advertising, even the types of people we DID want to play (like those who haven't played TW for over a decade--they don't know what scripts are like now, they see a bunch of people saying the server sucks and believe it and don't show).

That is why we NEED server settings that somehow limit the use of scripts better than the settings available today. The "default setting" is to allow scripts already, as it were, so why so adamantly fight settings that could optionally limit their use? Just don't play on those servers.

And before you mention closed games, that is NOT a very good option, as there is a certain amount of inertia to overcome to get people to preregister for a game, and one of our main goals is to find people who haven't played TW since its infancy to appeal to their nostalgic side and try to grow the community. These people already have their doubts, and having to sign up or go through some kind of email validating scheme just to play is as big a turn-off as being told by scripters in the invitation thread that the server sucks.

quote:Just because a script is publicly released does not mean that it is open source. Some are, some aren't.
Good point, though using the script locally can give you insights that allow you to exploit it, insights you might not notice with someone else using that script.

quote:Ship delay is fubared. Granted. But I don't think thats necessarily a huge problem. I don't feel that the ship delay option adds much if anything to the game. The majority of games do not use it, and I don't miss it. I've played it, I don't like it. What do you feel it adds to the game? Why is it necessary?
Without ship delays, attacks have no delay either, which means the touchtypist wins against the hunt-and-pecker. That's no more fair than a scripter pdrop. Ship delays at the very least cushion the difference in typing and reaction speeds between two players, even though they don't remove them altogether. And generally unless you want to stick around and fight longer, a surprise attack can only result in one incoming wave.

The way we play TradeWars, reaction speed IS NOT an important factor. We play TradeWars more like chess than Doom, thinking out each move before implementing it. That should not be an invalid way to play the game all because of what amounts to a bug in delays.

quote:A use of combat scripts does not necessarily indicate a lack of strategic capability. It requires a different use of strategy from the one you're more accustomed to, but a strategy nonetheless.
You are making the quite common mistake of confusing strategy and tactics. Combat scripts are very tactical devices, not strategic ones. Our method of playing focuses on the strategy. If a tactical advantage can break a strategy, no matter how well thought out that strategy, there is a problem with game balance, and scripts exacerbate that problem.

quote:Have you tried advertising for a low turn game with a time limit and lowered commands per cycle, etc that specifically states in the post that its for non-scripters?
Yes, as stated above. Though I admit that was over two years ago. It is possible that the same gate crashers that ruined our games aren't around anymore, but it's equally possible there are some lurkers around who would do the same. We'll keep our games private for now. We'll announce games publically when it is possible to at least severely deter scripters with server options.

quote:What happens when you're out cashing and someone kills a fighter next to you? They have a full minute to come and kill you before you're ever alerted that they're there. Even with varying delays based on distances from your location, you can still run into problems like this.
Then you should scan more often. Armed with the knowledge that fighter reports are NOT instant, you have to be more careful to keep aware of your surroundings. And with ship delays, even a person entering your sector doesn't necessarily get the kill. It depends on whether your ship is slower than theirs whether they even get one wave off. You could get photoned, but that just makes a good grid more important, since even being "near the edge" of your grid is more vulnerable than deep in your territory. Instead of how it works today, which is if you have a fig there and ship delays are on, anyone entering dies, period.

Sounds like your tradewars is full of those good with their hands, great keyjobs, lots of keynobbing going on around there huh? Its fine, DONT INVITE US, we dont care man. We are going to use our scripts, and you are going to keep giving keyjobs.

Stick to your keyjobs, we will stick to the real fun, seeing who is faster at hitting F1.

You might want to try advertising again, especially after this discusion has been read over by people. There have been several designated newbie games that don't seem to have had too much trouble. The kind of people who would jump into a game knowing they're not wanted and trash things for giggles are definately NOT the kind of people I'm defending, btw.

And I'm sorry, you haven't convinced me. I don't see why you would need options added into the game to accomodate your style of play. Advertising a low turn game with ship delays on and a time limit specifically for non-scripters should keep 99% of the scripters away and the sysop could ban IPs of any jerks who show up. As far as closed games, do you think it would be that big of a turn off to old school players coming back? They used to have to sign up for accounts on a BBS, so I would think that if they aren't used to an instant gratification kind of signup then a simple email wouldn't be a problem. Just my opinion.

OK, so a touch typist has an advantage over a chicken pecker. So what? Touch typing is a skill that people have to work to learn, why shouldn't they get an advantage over someone who hasn't learned? Do you suggest limiting the key entry speed to make up for that? It seems to me that touch typing is differentiated between running scripts in that a person must actually work to learn the skill instead of merely downloading and running a script. So it should be the kind of thing you would encourage, unless I'm misunderstanding your stance.....

Reaction speed is still important, even with ship delays. Someone who thinks and acts quickly will get the drop on someone who doesn't, regardless of whatever padding ship delays add. If I warp into your sector and you stare at the screen for 10 seconds reading, you'll be dead.

I know the difference between tactics and strategy, but I don't see the problem here. Isn't a good tactic one that can disrupt your opponent's strategy? I'd encourage you sign up for the next big game and see how chesslike it can be, even with scripting. I believe that attack scripts actually make the game more strategic in nature, not less. More is automated, including killing. This adds an extra layer of abstraction, allowing players to take a step back and focus on the big picture. In big games especially, turns are very carefully conservered, strategies carefully planned out, and continually analyzed and revamped. I don't think you have a feel for what TW can be like, even with attack scripts. Let me know if you want to see what they look like from the other side. Keep in mind I'm talking about low turn games here, I'm personally not a fan on unlims at all.

Adding a delay onto fig reports will cause plenty of problems, regardless. Your base could be under invasion and you wouldn't know it until a minute later? Even with ship delay, a skilled player could wreak untold havoc in a minute. And as for scanning constantly, thats not always feasible. Some ships don't even have dscanners on them.

My continuing impression is that you have had a few bad experiences with "high intensity" TW and decided it wasn't for you without exploring all it has to offer. You've got an open offer to corp with me and I'll show you what it can be like. I think then you'll be able to make a more informed decision about many of these topics. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't, but I don't feel that you've given it a fair shot.

quote:Originally posted by Psion

[/br]And I'm sorry, you haven't convinced me. I don't see why you would need options added into the game to accomodate your style of play. Advertising a low turn game with ship delays on and a time limit specifically for non-scripters should keep 99% of the scripters away and the sysop could ban IPs of any jerks who show up. As far as closed games, do you think it would be that big of a turn off to old school players coming back? They used to have to sign up for accounts on a BBS, so I would think that if they aren't used to an instant gratification kind of signup then a simple email wouldn't be a problem. Just my opinion.
99% isn't good enough, since as even Harley mentioned, just ONE scripter ruins the game entirely for the nonscripters. Banning an IP after the damage is done doesn't change the fact the game needs to be rebanged, because it's impossible to put things the way they were before the griefer showed up. That's why server options are needed.

Why is it necessary to have NO server options? You haven't defended the position of "having the option would be bad," just stated that that is your opinion. In my opinion, the more options, the better. Turning on MBBS mode is something I'll never do in my games, but at least the OPTION is there. Fighting new choices seems the antithesis of humanity, free will and all.

quote:OK, so a touch typist has an advantage over a chicken pecker. So what? Touch typing is a skill that people have to work to learn, why shouldn't they get an advantage over someone who hasn't learned? Do you suggest limiting the key entry speed to make up for that? It seems to me that touch typing is differentiated between running scripts in that a person must actually work to learn the skill instead of merely downloading and running a script. So it should be the kind of thing you would encourage, unless I'm misunderstanding your stance.....
Either you're being deliberately dense again (like you were with "all scripts are the same") or I'm being much less clear in my posts than I thought I was. The ONLY skill that would be important in an IDEAL game of TradeWars is strategic thinking. Reaction speed, typing speed, coding ability, all of them SHOULD be irrelevant. I am aware that that is an ideal that is completely impossible to reach, but every step toward that ideal is a positive one in my opinion. Removal of nonutilitarian scripts is one step in the right direction.

quote:Reaction speed is still important, even with ship delays. Someone who thinks and acts quickly will get the drop on someone who doesn't, regardless of whatever padding ship delays add. If I warp into your sector and you stare at the screen for 10 seconds reading, you'll be dead.10 seconds reading is just rediculous. Even so, if you're in an ISS, that's only two attack waves (4 seconds per wave), which isn't necessarily death, depending on what ship I'm flying and how well-equipped it is. The padding is more significant than you give it credit for, and necessary as a step toward that ideal I mentioned above.

quote:I know the difference between tactics and strategy, but I don't see the problem here. Isn't a good tactic one that can disrupt your opponent's strategy?
Yes, but the game is a strategic one, not a tactical one. At least, it was in the beginning, and some of us would still like to play it as a strategic game. That is impossible to do with even one tactical scripter in the game due to a dearth of server settings, though, so we come back to why are you SO AGAINST just having the OPTION, not even as a default?

quote:I'd encourage you sign up for the next big game and see how chesslike it can be, even with scripting. I believe that attack scripts actually make the game more strategic in nature, not less. More is automated, including killing. This adds an extra layer of abstraction, allowing players to take a step back and focus on the big picture. In big games especially, turns are very carefully conservered, strategies carefully planned out, and continually analyzed and revamped. I don't think you have a feel for what TW can be like, even with attack scripts. Let me know if you want to see what they look like from the other side. Keep in mind I'm talking about low turn games here, I'm personally not a fan on unlims at all.
Turns are just as carefully conserved, strategies just as carefully planned out, in a game without pdrop scripts. There are just more POSSIBLE strategies since you needn't immediately dismiss every strategy that involves touching any single enemy fighter out of hand the way you do in a ship delay game with pdroppers around.

quote:Adding a delay onto fig reports will cause plenty of problems, regardless. Your base could be under invasion and you wouldn't know it until a minute later? Even with ship delay, a skilled player could wreak untold havoc in a minute. And as for scanning constantly, thats not always feasible. Some ships don't even have dscanners on them.
Perhaps citadels could provide instantaneous reports of ships entering the sector. Even if not, though, once again this would change the game in many ways, and I think it would be more realistic that someone would have time to wreak some havoc before you got word of it anyway if you're away from home. And you're right, not all ships have density scanners. Suddenly that's actually a disadvantage instead of easily worked around by always surrounding yourself with fighters. >gasp< Ships with more depth in the differences in their advantages and disadvantages! What would the game be coming to?

quote:My continuing impression is that you have had a few bad experiences with "high intensity" TW and decided it wasn't for you without exploring all it has to offer. You've got an open offer to corp with me and I'll show you what it can be like. I think then you'll be able to make a more informed decision about many of these topics. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't, but I don't feel that you've given it a fair shot.
My impression is that you haven't ever enjoyed a turn-based game in your life and require twitch reaction speeds to have any fun. Chess bores you, but dodge ball is a blast. My impression is that none of that is relevant anyway, since our opinions are going to color the discussion and that's perfectly normal.

I've hated every first person shooter I've ever played. That doesn't mean I need to try every new one when it comes out to decide I don't like it. I don't have to "give it another shot" to know I still will not enjoy having to make decisions in 0.250 seconds or die. I don't play for an adreneline rush, I play to THINK. It's a logic puzzle to me, and I enjoy it on that level very much without having to worry about 12 hours of thought ruined in under a second by a script exploiting a broken game mechanic.

Part of what SHOULD be one of TradeWars' strengths is that it can be played both as an adreneline rush game AND as a logical plodding game. Unfortunately, the same particular instance of the game cannot be both at once, since the settings used for a good logical plodding game make scripts overpowered (due to ship delays overpowering pdrops). All I'm looking for, since there's at least one setting that overpowers scripts, is that settings exist to remove their power as well. Your servers will still keep those settings off, so why does the very idea of their existance scare you so?

(Edit: Formatting issue.)

Again, I implore the great masses ... to put down their differences, and just remember what we're fighting for ( Um, peace? love? planetary conquest? *sighs & shrugs* Nevermind, I forgot myself )

Entropy,

As you are quickly finding, Psion is not worth the effort to reason with. At some point he's going to sink to calling you names and telling you that you aren't experienced enough to know what he's talking about. The feigned ignorance is the first step in this direction. He wants no options to prevent his high level scripts from functioning as efficient as they do now. He wants you to have no choice but to suck it up or monitor your server 24/7 to catch people like him. Compromise and mutual existence is not an option to absolutists.

Hey can I get in on this? Okay Thanks.
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Bethel

Psion - regardless of whether you think it is necessary or not, what harm would come from having server options that would allow people like stretch and xentropy to play the way they want to? Your opinion that it isn't necessary does not mean it is harmful.

This whole thing is a joke! for every game ever made, someone trys te get an edge, thats human nature! and right behind them is the purest!
every one I know that plays PC's X-Box, Gameqube games, read cheat
Books, programable controlers, and cheat cartiges. We Have Webpages,
Fourms, And even a TV Show about getting that upper hand. i tryed to read this whole thing, But Way to long. Basicly what I read is the
Purests Bashing the Scripters. The reason I got into scripts
cause i cant Type if my life depended on it! Now You purests that
can type, would eat me alive, I guess i can cyr Unfair about that!
or I can get special training in typing. But wouldnt that be useing
that training as an Edge to win! if we didnt have scripts, speed typers would have the advantage, wouldnt that be unfair? what it
comes down to is your ALLWAYS going to have a small group that whine
and cry "It's Not Fair" and beat the drum! The HAVE and the HAVENOTs
are always going to argue. This whole Thing is pointless, if we
didnt have scripts, we be argueing about somthing eles. and that
small group would still be Whineing and Crying![B)]

Psion, when was the last time you played without your combat scripts? I'd be interested to see how good of a player you are when your scripts are taken away.

I just started using combat scripts recently. While I get easy kills out of it, it does seem to turn people off and they usually leave the game and never come back. I agree that combat scripts have significatly changed the way I play TW. Now instead of building up sectors, all i need to do is get a planet with a TW, and start killing everybody who walks in the door, while my teammates look for their barely built up sectors to take out.

Gone are the days of building up an Empire. Those with a Combat script and a good grid can shut any and every new players out, while taking out any existing players.

One problem i have with Psion and other old time scripters is the attitude they have in the game. They act like they are god, laugh at you when they POD YOUR MERCHANTE and call you a noob after being in the game for 5 minutes. I hate that crap. You would literally have to get in the game on the same day as them, or within a day or to, otherwise the game can pretty much be considered over.

I haven't delvulged into counter scripts yet, but sometimes i ask myself, WHY? Why not just find a game that A) Is better balanced. B) Actually has graphics C) Every player has access to the same game setup, without having to find and download and pay for a few different helpers, then downloading script after script, then testing them and learning how to use them. After all that, i'm tired and really don't feel like learning more.

My point is, eventually i'm going to find a better game similar to tradewars, but much, much COOLER. (I hope thats not blasphemy)

OK Xentropy well to be blunt I think your attitude took more than a slight turn towards snotty in that last post. Maybe thats just me. Stretch, thank you soooo kindly for telling me what I think and how I feel. Go play in traffic, the grownups are talking.

I don't think that having the server option would be bad, I never did. But I don't think its necessary, and I think it could have other negative repercussions. No need to get all worked up about it, its not like I personally hold to power to make that change and am refusing you arbitrarily. If that option could be incorporated, that'd be fine with me. BUT again for the umpth time, I don't see thats its necesary. Hearsay about games from 2 years ago being ruined don't hold much water with me. Its certainly not your job to "convert" me, but I really think you should have a more recent "experiment" before automatically declaring that an advertisment would automatically be a failure. Some people run newbie games, some people run games with RPG elements, no reason why there can't be non-scripting games.

OK, well you've been unclear to this point, but you've finally explained yourself. What you want is a turn based game. Not in the sense that TW has turns, but one where players take alternating turns. If thats what you're after, then your ideal is more than impossible, its ridiculous. You're seeking a goal that goes counter to the essence of the game, a REAL TIME strategy game. Thats the huge draw of TW, its real time, but you seem to want to transform it into a turn-based game. This situation actually kind of reminds me of some of the people who have wanted to incorporate more RPG elements in a game, make a sort of role playing TW. Thats fine, its a great idea that has some interesting possibilities, but it has one huge flaw. It runs counter to the most basic mechanics of the game. If a pure strategy game is what you are after, maybe you would be happier finding or writing a new game that isn't built on real time gameplay? I'm not being mocking, or attempting to drive you away from the game. But if I'm understanding you correctly, your ultimate complaint with TW is its very essence.

In my opinion, any strategy that could be so quickly rendered useless by one tactical move is not much of a strategy to begin with. You cannot make TW purely strategic without actually removing real time interaction, especially in combat. A strategy should be resilient and should not crumble at the first touch of a good tactic. I frequently use strategies that focus on broader goals and whether or not someone is running an attack script is purely irrelevant to the higher strategy.

Wrong on all counts. I greatly enjoy chess, I hate dodgeball and I do like turn-based games. Civ is one of my favs. I also enjoy FPS games, theres nothing wrong with that. You have repeatedly misunderstood my argument. I'm not saying that such options would necesarily be bad. I'm saying that you haven't convinced me that they're actually needed. Also, they could have much more drastic impacts on the game than merely hindering attack scripts. I'll also repeat that I don't think you've experienced all that modern TW has to offer.

EVERY game I play in is both a plodding strategic game AND and fast paced adrenaline game. Just at different times. And not by a long shot is every player in any way required to engage in combat. Most don't. I know many fantastic players who don't give a hill of beans for combat and focus purely on the strategy.

So I guess the only real reason I would say that this server change would be a bad thing is because it sounds like you won't stop there. You dream of completely remaking TW into a pure strategy game, instead of the wonderful real time strategy game that it is. This goal could not be accomplished without repeated revisions until the game has become something else completely. Changes beyond merely adding options. If that is truly what you're after, I honestly think that maybe you should look into another game. OR run and play in strictly old school games. Games with low turns, low time limits and SINGLE NODES. One of those was run recently, and though it had little draw, those involved said it was a blast. And even though it was openly advertised, it wasn't hijacked by any "undersirables". Running single node games would be more "true" to the original TW that you seem so nostalgic for. It would also render completely irrelevant any issues of ship delays, attack scripting, or inequalities due to reflexes or typing ability.

If this change can be implemented, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. I just think you're fixing something that isn't broken. I firmly believe that it is possible to run the kind of game that you want without resorting to making changes to the game itself. Whenever I have encountered a game whose mechanics I disliked, I looked at other games with similar themes.

I made an open offer to expose you to how strategic a scripting game can be, but you don't seem interested. Its truly your loss, and I think reasonable people will realize that your opinions about it are less informed than they could be simply because you don't have enough experience with it. The offer still stands, let me know if you change your mind.

Havocatl, I'd ask you to restrict your speculations to things you have experience with. I am definately NOT that kind of player and I resent your insinuations that I am. I make great efforts to help newer players learn and enjoy the game.

As a matter of fact, I make most kills without scripts. *gasp* Thats right. Macros baby. Unless you guys have a problem with those too? At least with macros its someone mashing the keys instead of a script on autopilot. I only run combat scripts for short periods of time when they are specifically necessary, and I NEVER run them longer than I need to. To do otherwise is to leave yourself vulnerable.

For the 8000th time, elaborate counter scripts are rarely needed to counter combat scripts. MACROS people! If are people are being driven off by the presence of a few combat scripts, so what? Anyone who will quietly disappear without making an effort to become better at the game would just have found another reason to quit when they ran into something they didn't like. The ones who learn, who ask questions and seek ways around those "unbeatable" (laff) scripts are the ones who endure and become better players.

I am not some kill-happy psycho. I'm a patient, careful player who also takes the time to help new players learn and adapt to the game. Theres more people like me out there than you might realize. To automatically lump me in with the kind of immature bozos you're describing is hugely insulting. I probably actually dislike those people more than you do. But instead of complaining or quitting, I KILL THEM. They are EASY EASY PREY.

I find it interesting to note that out of all the times I have mentioned how easy it is to defeat these supposedly all-powerful scripts, not one person has asked me how. Is this an oversight, or have you lost interest in learning? I'm freely offering you the knowledge on how to easily beat what you are complaining has ruined the game. But not one of you has asked me for it......

quote:Originally posted by Psion

OK Xentropy well to be blunt I think your attitude took more than a slight turn towards snotty in that last post. Maybe thats just me. Stretch, thank you soooo kindly for telling me what I think and how I feel. Go play in traffic, the grownups are talking.
I think you're reading snottiness into it because of what Stretch posted. I don't agree with a single word of his last post, and it bothers me that he's basically HURTING our side by posting such ad hominem attacks. I'll apologize for him if I have to.

quote:I don't think that having the server option would be bad, I never did. But I don't think its necessary, and I think it could have other negative repercussions.

Those repercussions will only be in our games, not yours. And they are necessary because there is no way to stop the one griefer without server-side options. If you can tell me ONE way to stop pdrops cold in a ship delay game without staring at spy screens 24/7 and immediately kick/banning anyone who does it, tell me now. If you can't, then my desire for options is a valid one because there are none currently.

quote:Hearsay about games from 2 years ago being ruined don't hold much water with me.
And claims that you can somehow control EVERYONE who uses these scripts and make sure not a single ONE will show up and ruin our games don't hold much water with me.

I'll put it simply, as a basic truth that holds for every game that has ever existed. Self-imposed rules do not work. If the game engine does not enforce a given rule, the players WILL exploit that fact for a competitive advantage. My opinions about this practice go well beyond TradeWars, and I dislike the wide multiplayer communities of quite a few other games for the same reason, preferring to play with friends to avoid the exploitations which, to my mind, ruin the games. GodZilla had it right, there. The purists vs. the overcompetitive exploiters. I don't think either side is *wrong*, I just believe equally strongly that both sides deserve to exist. Unfortunately the exploiting side loves to "prove something" by gate crashing purist games. Again, this happens elsewhere just as often as TW.

quote:OK, well you've been unclear to this point, but you've finally explained yourself. What you want is a turn based game. Not in the sense that TW has turns, but one where players take alternating turns. If thats what you're after, then your ideal is more than impossible, its ridiculous. You're seeking a goal that goes counter to the essence of the game, a REAL TIME strategy game. Thats the huge draw of TW, its real time, but you seem to want to transform it into a turn-based game.
Ah, but see, in the beginning, it was a single node game. It WAS a turn-based game, even if, in a way, played in realtime. YOUR huge draw to TW was its real-time nature. That is NOT the primary draw for some of us.

Don't you see? TradeWars CAN BE a chess-style game just as easily as it CAN BE a first-person shooter with twitch reaction times and an adreneline rush around every warp. You only find enjoyment in the latter style of game, but the former style not only can exist, it DOES exist, on our private servers, and we find enjoyment in THAT.

The "essense" of TradeWars is NOT fast speed. It is in your world, but there is much more depth in the game which you can only find once you remove the twitch-reactivity layer of the game and play it as a strategy game. JP himself told me in an email that his vision of TradeWars is more as a board game than a computer game, and that is exactly the essense that *I* see in the game. The same essense the current OWNER sees in it. That doesn't make my view more valid than yours, but it sure would seem to make it equally valid, no matter how much you dismiss it out of hand.

quote:In my opinion, any strategy that could be so quickly rendered useless by one tactical move is not much of a strategy to begin with. You cannot make TW purely strategic without actually removing real time interaction, especially in combat. A strategy should be resilient and should not crumble at the first touch of a good tactic. I frequently use strategies that focus on broader goals and whether or not someone is running an attack script is purely irrelevant to the higher strategy.
Okay, then. You asked us to ask you. Tell me how to guarantee the ability to hit an enemy fighter without a significant chance of being photoned in a ship delay game. Until you tell me that, my mind cannot be changed as to the LIMITS of strategy in your style of game, since all strategies that involve touching enemy fighters must be thrown out immediately (a HUGE limiter).

quote:So I guess the only real reason I would say that this server change would be a bad thing is because it sounds like you won't stop there.

And what scares you about some games being out there that can't be played reliably in your style? Your games already can't be played reliably in our style. Nothing I would ever request would FORCE changes upon anyone, they would all be options. If something required a change that won't be an option, well...that's what v4 is for. v4 is meant to placate those on our side. You folks can stick to your v3 servers and have tons of fun. We'll have our fun on the flip side.

quote:Running single node games would be more "true" to the original TW that you seem so nostalgic for.
But the whole point of multinode is to not have to constantly try to connect over and over again waiting for the "busy signals" to vanish. That is NOT a part of the nostalgia we want recreated. [:P] Ship delays remove any other issues with multinode play, such as reaction time factors. Sometimes we use double delays. Even in that "sits there staring for 10 seconds" case you mentioned earlier, that'd only allow an ISS one attack wave before its prey escaped.

quote:If this change can be implemented, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. I just think you're fixing something that isn't broken. I firmly believe that it is possible to run the kind of game that you want without resorting to making changes to the game itself.
And we could, if every person who used attack scripts were as honorable as you. But the FACT is they are not. Some of them are griefers. And when just ONE griefer is needed to completely ruin a game, server options ARE necessary. If you don't like the game rules or mechanics, you move on. If some people don't like the game rules or mechanics, they break or exploit them to ruin the fun of others.

quote:I made an open offer to expose you to how strategic a scripting game can be, but you don't seem interested. Its truly your loss, and I think reasonable people will realize that your opinions about it are less informed than they could be simply because you don't have enough experience with it. The offer still stands, let me know if you change your mind.
Ah, nice, "you're not like me so your opinions are less valid"? I can't even respond to an implication that rediculous. The fact you don't think TradeWars can even BE a chess style game proves to me your opinions are just as ill-informed by your logic since you haven't given one of my games a sufficient try either. You may have dropped in one time, missed the adreneline rush, and left, but if you'd given it a sufficient try you would see that calling realtime the "essense" of TradeWars is a fallacy.

The difference between you and I is that I don't think your opinion is any less valid for not trying out a non-scripting ship-delay game, however. One can form quite valid opinions about ideologies without experiencing them. I don't have to personally engage in pedophilia to feel that Michael Jackson is wrong and be disappointed that our legal system can be bought off so easily. In your world, TradeWars' most important feature is its realtime hair-trigger decisions. In my world, Tradewars' most important feature is its strategic depth. To that I'll add that even if it is the case that your games have equal strategic depth to my games, (a point I dissent because you can never touch an enemy fighter, which removes strategic options,) I still prefer my games because they REMOVE the reaction time factors, the part of the game I do NOT enjoy. I don't want to suddenly get an adrenal hit and feel tense and uneasy. I hate that feeling. I play to think, not to trick my body into reacting as if I'm running for my life from a wild animal. I'll play the game with X amount of strategy before the game with X (note, equal) strategy and Y fast-react tactics any day of the week.

quote:Originally posted by Psion


I am not some kill-happy psycho. I'm a patient, careful player who also takes the time to help new players learn and adapt to the game. Theres more people like me out there than you might realize. To automatically lump me in with the kind of immature bozos you're describing is hugely insulting. I probably actually dislike those people more than you do. But instead of complaining or quitting, I KILL THEM. They are EASY EASY PREY.


I don't think I could have said it better.