quote:Originally posted by Stretch in a different thread

Equally easy == equally hard.

What scripts do you run that are not "equally easy" to exploit?

I'd also add that CIM polling is essentially more dangerous because they will arrive without you specifically knowing you may have triggered an event, like hitting a fig. Though, the downside is CIM polling may have dozens of seconds of delay. However, a smart script wouldn't react to any ole change in the in the CIM just like any smart fig trigger script twarps to the adjacent sector and the photons.

But this is fun technobabble for this know-nothing plumber.


Well I'm glad you're having fun technobabbling, little plumber Feel free to prove to me at anytime that you are in fact a doctor, and not a plumber.

Virtually all attack scripts are fairly easy to fake out with a simple macro. Coding intelligent scripts on that order is a lot harder than you imply. If you can write some sort of a genius pattern recognition script that only responds to real fig hits, not macced ones in TWX, I'd sure like to get a peek at the code.

Anyways, I'm honestly curious. Where did you see or hear of this automated kill script based solely on CIM reports? Due to the delays involved, I've never seen one before. Doesn't seem like it would be particularly effective except against people who are just sitting out in space twiddling their thumbs.

Also, due to your plumber comment, its clear that you read my post here before replying in the TWGS Scripting thread. Yet you chose not to reply to my comments directly, but only to make oblique backhanded comments in another thread. Interesting.

Is this even worth continuing? Nobody is really listening to the other at this point. I think the best solution is for Stretch to get into a game with some peole who play the game the way it is today and get a better understanding of what goes into the scrips. That or just play at servers where scripts are not allowed. 2 pages worth of back and forth flaming and no one is ever going to change there view.

Stretch, you just have to face facts, the game is not the same as it was 10 years ago. Things that were done then are not apart of the game today. It's evolved, and you can either evolve with it, or stay on little servers where the "old feeling" is still in play.

Well, it is kinda fun

Actually, I'm listening to what Stretch is saying, I'm just finding it lacking. That combined with the fact that I don't like his attitude has encouraged me to respond in kind to his inflammatory remarks. *shrug* No harm in a little flame war.

I think Coke is right though. I think you would benefit greatly from seriously playing in a few "modern" TW games and learning more about what it is that you're criticising.

This has turned into a pissing contest, which is simply another logical fallacy of an appeal to authority (which understandably you believe you will win, which is why you are pushing the argument in this direction, rather than towards the real issue at hand). Very sad. But in the unfair world you've said we live in, you've shown a propensity for dirty pool.

First game, 1.03d in 1992-3. Played most of the Wide Betas. Used QModem, wrote and downloaded scripts, switched to TWHELP. Quit for a period in the late 90s. Began playing on the internet in early 2000. Joined two different corps that are apparently well known since I still run across links to them on some of today's tw websites. Never really enjoy it as much because of the heavy scripting at this point (you could be podded with no precautionary message). Co-worker of mine for many years was the writer of TWarped, the first official addon to the Major BBS version and we have had long discussions about the state of TW these days). I'm an IT professional and writing scripts is within my job functions. I've played smaller games over the years. I currently host a TW game with about 10 active players.

BTW, even plummers still have the ability to both prevent themselves from aquiring an ailment and often cure the ailment. Medical doctors also make mistakes. Your analogy is cute, but oversimplified. My better analogy is to say, scripters are like laissez faire capitalists. They want no regulations and only deal in absolutes. But after the stock market crash of '29 (the death of the TW playerbase) a regulated economy emerged that has not crashed since. But in TW, nothing has been done to end the Depression of the playerbase. The ironic thing about the '29 crash was that the laissez faire capitalists continued on, rich beyond belief and after a period of adjustment, still made plenty of money in the regulated economy. And even so, doctors and plumbers can have an opinion about the economy, not just the laissez faire capitalists.

Your talk about Coke still does not address the type of player he represents. I'll assume at this point you are dodging that question purposely and due to a lack of real substance to back your opinion with.

My wise-crack about your scripts was in humour in relation to your logic. Not a personal attack on your scripts. I apologize for this not being clear to you.

And if I may: quote:you're assuming facts not in evidencefollowed by quote:I'm thinking (read: assuming) that you hopped back into TW after an extended break and got wasted right off by somebody using a script and got all pissy about it. Does that hypocracy seperated by one thin paragraph amuse you as it does me? Probably not I suppose.

A trading script has substance beyond its ones and zeros. As does an non-interactive attack script. Look to the substance of the script not to the machine code (reference the difference between substanative due process and procedural due process if you need to help).

BTW, its sad I am labeled a whiner. I mean think about it. I came and posted for features that are not in the game to be added so I can have the option to unpriviledge high level scripters. If there were options like this in the game, you would not be forced to play with them turned on as YOU could play on another server. Unfortunately, the rest of us are FORCED to play within the rules the priviledge high level scripters. We have no recourse but to ask for EIS to do something, or for a 3rd party program. This is not whining. Whining, is what this thread started as, as the title shows: Sick of script bashers

quote:Originally posted by Stretch
BTW, its sad I am labeled a whiner. I mean think about it. I came and posted for features that are not in the game to be added so I can have the option to unpriviledge high level scripters. If there were options like this in the game, you would not be forced to play with them turned on as YOU could play on another server. Unfortunately, the rest of us are FORCED to play within the rules the priviledge high level scripters. We have no recourse but to ask for EIS to do something, or for a 3rd party program. This is not whining. Whining, is what this thread started as, as the title shows: Sick of script bashers


Dude, you're not getting it. You don't need to be a high level scripter, or have high level scripts to play this game and win. However, that being said, it's apat of the game a majority at least here in the eisonlien TW community accepts and even endorses. I would love to have more of the high level stuff (one specific scripter knows who i'm talking to on this cause i've only joked about it since I met him <g>)

The game you want does not exist anymore. It is that simple. Not unless you have a server that makes those rules you want with no scripts.. There are several edits you can do, low max commands, low turns, time limits just to name a few. And have rules on the server not allowing scripts. It's really that easy.

Coke,

Again, I am not against scripts. I thought I had made that abundantly clear. =/

It also doesn't make sense to say the games I apparently want "don't exist" and then say in the same breath "except" if I make them exist.

That's the point isn't it? I am in need of the tools to allow that to happen. I can not be glued 24/7 spying on nodes to make sure this is the case. Even Harley has said on another thread that Mr. Pritchard is willing to implement some of these changes. So perhaps, soon your games won't exist.

but you can't say some scripts are good, and some are not. That was what Psion was trying to point out before. You can't say, it's ok to run these type of scripts, but if it does this or this, then it's wrong and unfair to the rest. You can't even say it's only good to use public scripts avalable at grimeytrader or anything, cause some people use different versions of helpers/twx..some have slower connections and can't use some public stuff. So you either have it, or you don't. There's no middle ground.

You're a laissez faire capitalist who deals in absolutes, and I am not.

You're either a murderer or you're not. Then why 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree, manslaughter, etc.?

I'm having a hard time understanding why you can not back away from an absolutist view.

if you use Swath, attack,zoc,t-war your useing a helper
if you use notepad, your useing a helper!
if you use pen and paper ,your useing a helper!
if you use pebbles and twigs your useing a helper!

I have never met a player that didnt use somthing to help him play
the game, I think Stretch is a hipocrate, and doesnt know what hes talking about!

well I am not ashamed to admit I have very little understanding of laissez faire capitalist...after all, this is a tradewars fourm, and that is not a topic that comes up often. So I googled it and that just leaves me wondering where the relevance comes in. For one thing, i'm not attacking you personally. I have in no way done that, but you seem to have no problem doing it to others, even if you say you dont' like wagging your fingers at people. And Second, best I can get as to what laissez faire capitalist means is The opinion that an economic system should be driven by free market forces, not government intervention.

If that IS what it means, they ok...I guess I am. And to your second point, 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree, and manslaughter...if you do any of that, you ARE still murderer. It does not change the fact you murdered someone.

Now that we got that out of the way, I guess I can't be an absoulte in saying you can't use some scripts but can use others. However, if thats' the case, who's got the absoulute decision in saying what can be used? If it is the gameop of the server, then my point is made to play on servers that have games you enjoy.

If i'm off base on the whole thing, then hey ... like I said, I have no clue where you are going with this.

Your miss quoting Harley, He said that there are no planes to change the current version in any way. There was mention of v4 of TradeWars that JP is currently working on there are plans for certain things to be changed in order to level the playing field in the game like some things have delays and others don’t and if I remember correctly I think there was mention of a delay in the receiving of fighter messages. I don’t really know much about v4 I’m not involved so I can only say what I have read about it. Also, if I remember correctly Harley stated that script users will still have the upper hand in v4.

If you have been around so long playing this game then you would know the simple fact that CIM has been part of the game a lot longer then JP has owned the code.

You’re not a seasoned player and if you are then your posting stuff like this in order to egg other people on. Is your real name SGO, Vash, or Master Blaster?

I am being way nice in my post I’m not mad or upset I’m just trying to help you to understand one simple fact THERE IS NO WAY TO COMPLY STOP THE USE OF SCRIPTS IN THE CURRENT VERSION OF TRADWARS AND THERE IS NO PLAN TO CHANGE THE CURRENT VERSION IN ANY WAY.

I’m more then willing to help you learn any aspect of the game you wish to learn. I more then willing to help you configure your server to inhibit scripts all you have to is ask but your still not going stop all the scripts you hate so much.

I don’t see what’s so wrong with my suggestion to find other players who’s views are the same as yours and other servers where they play the game the way you like to play and leave it at that.

In the immortal words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!
quote:Originally posted by Stretch

This has turned into a pissing contest, which is simply another logical fallacy of an appeal to authority (which understandably you believe you will win, which is why you are pushing the argument in this direction, rather than towards the real issue at hand). Very sad. But in the unfair world you've said we live in, you've shown a propensity for dirty pool.

If you think establishing credibility is no more than a "pissing contest" then you need to open your eyes. In order to have people take your views seriously, you MUST establish your credentials. I can go to the downtown of any major city and hear bums and whinos rant about the end being near. Should I believe them, just because the say the world is ending? Since you seem bent on showing off, I'll just quote fancy terms right back at you You saying we should listen to you just because you have an opinion is a classic example of Ipse Dixit, so there And the world isn't unfair just because I say so, thats the way it is. And believing otherwise exposes you to the logical fallacy of False Premise.

quote:
First game, 1.03d in 1992-3. Played most of the Wide Betas. Used QModem, wrote and downloaded scripts, switched to TWHELP. Quit for a period in the late 90s. Began playing on the internet in early 2000. Joined two different corps that are apparently well known since I still run across links to them on some of today's tw websites. Never really enjoy it as much because of the heavy scripting at this point (you could be podded with no precautionary message). Co-worker of mine for many years was the writer of TWarped, the first official addon to the Major BBS version and we have had long discussions about the state of TW these days). I'm an IT professional and writing scripts is within my job functions. I've played smaller games over the years. I currently host a TW game with about 10 active players.

OK, so you've established your bona fides, sort of. It seems to me that you are sorely lacking in experience in the current TW atmosphere. Again I say that you are not competent to make an expert opinion without having SPECIFIC knowledge of the area in question. Namely, these "high level" scripts you're so keen on.

quote:
BTW, even plummers still have the ability to both prevent themselves from aquiring an ailment and often cure the ailment. Medical doctors also make mistakes. Your analogy is cute, but oversimplified. My better analogy is to say, scripters are like laissez faire capitalists. They want no regulations and only deal in absolutes. But after the stock market crash of '29 (the death of the TW playerbase) a regulated economy emerged that has not crashed since. But in TW, nothing has been done to end the Depression of the playerbase. The ironic thing about the '29 crash was that the laissez faire capitalists continued on, rich beyond belief and after a period of adjustment, still made plenty of money in the regulated economy. And even so, doctors and plumbers can have an opinion about the economy, not just the laissez faire capitalists.

Sure, doctors make mistakes. But you're coming dangerously close to committing the logical fallacy of Overwhelming Exception there. Do YOU consult a plumber when you have a medical problem? You can ask your plumber for advice if you want to, but clearly you're more likely to get accurate advice from a doctor. Thats doesn't mean the plumber is always wrong, but given the choice between the two, reasonable people will listen to the doctor. As to your analogy, my problem with it is that you are using a False Premise. You correlate a decline in TW popularity with the behavior of scripters with no basis for that argument. Maybe people just wanted games with graphics, huh? The novelty of TW wore off a long time ago, now the only people playing are the ones who enjoy it, not because its the "next big thing". Many reasons can be posited for the decline in TW popularity, the blame can hardly be laid squarely on the backs of this sinister conspiracty of "high level" scripters.

quote:
Your talk about Coke still does not address the type of player he represents. I'll assume at this point you are dodging that question purposely and due to a lack of real substance to back your opinion with.

Ahem *Argumentum Ex Silentio* Ahem
As I clearly pointed out, Coke is NOT the type of player you seem to think he is. Coke is a friend of mine and I read his post closely, even if you didn't. He clearly said:
quote:I will always stand by my saying that the SUPER scripters do have an ADVANTAGE over me with the public stuff, but not to a point I can't beat them. Everything that a script does I can do my understanding the game. I think scripts in the game makes it more fun. It makes it more stragagy, where to build, where to grid, how NOT to get photoned
Seems like he's pretty happy with the way things are and doesn't feel he's being taken advantage of by all us "high level" scripter boogey men.
quote:
My wise-crack about your scripts was in humour in relation to your logic. Not a personal attack on your scripts. I apologize for this not being clear to you.
OK, thats good. Otherwise you'd have commited the logical fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.

quote:
And if I may: quote:you're assuming facts not in evidencefollowed by quote:I'm thinking (read: assuming) that you hopped back into TW after an extended break and got wasted right off by somebody using a script and got all pissy about it. Does that hypocracy seperated by one thin paragraph amuse you as it does me? Probably not I suppose.

Sigh, note the presence of a QUALIFIER. See where I said "I'm thinking"? That means its an unfounded opinion based on circumstantial evidence, not a fact. Do I need to dilineate the differences between fact and opinion for you? Or maybe I should just point out that you committed Amphibology with that statement.

quote:
A trading script has substance beyond its ones and zeros. As does an non-interactive attack script. Look to the substance of the script not to the machine code (reference the difference between substanative due process and procedural due process if you need to help).
No help needed. Everything has substance beyond its component parts. I was asking you to define what makes an attack script "evil" and what makes a utility script "good". It sounds like you're moralizing here. I hardly need to point out that if you are moralizing, your definitions of whats ok and whats not are purely relative and hence insubstantial. I would be interested is listening to your explanation of how you CLEARLY DELINEATE the difference between what sorts of scripts are acceptable and what sort aren't.

quote:
BTW, its sad I am labeled a whiner. I mean think about it. I came and posted for features that are not in the game to be added so I can have the option to unpriviledge high level scripters.

Well, not too many people seem to agree with you that this supposed upperclass even exists, let alone needs to be reined in.

quote:
If there were options like this in the game, you would not be forced to play with them turned on as YOU could play on another server. Unfortunately, the rest of us are FORCED to play within the rules the priviledge high level scripters. We have no recourse but to ask for EIS to do something, or for a 3rd party program. This is not whining. Whining, is what this thread started as, as the title shows: Sick of script bashers

Um, no. Its whining. You're pissy and you're whining. I'm sorry TW isn't 100% the same as it was. But oh well. Things change. The game has kept the same name, but the versions have changed. TW 3.x is very different from 1.x, even without scripting. Most people adjust or move on. You've apparently decided that you know better than everyone else and are going to single handedly effect some sort of TW renaissance through pure force of complaining.

As has been suggested to you many many times. Play with like-minded players. Why would those of us happy with the status quo want any barriers to our scripting put in place? You're campaigning for a major change that very few people want. Play how you want, just quit complaining about this mysterious cabal of "high level" scripters keeping everyone oppressed.

On a side note, I find your psuedo-intellectualism extremely distasteful. Yes, you know big words. Congratulations. You want a trophy or something? You're not winning any bonus points by trying to use big words or technical terms to make yourself seem smarter or in feeble attempts to belittle myself or others. I have a solid education too. I know lots of big words and am familiar with logical fallacies as well. I can continue to point out the numerous logical fallacies in your posts, and even use the fancy latin names for some of them. If you want to keep playing these little word games, by all means. But it really just makes you look petty.

Hehehe, Coke, don't worry about it. I was trying to continue to use an analogy I set up in an earlier post but I am pretty sure its a lost cause for some reason.

Laissez faire capitalists aren't people who just believe market forces, they are absolutists in those beliefs and will attempt to thwart any manipulation of those market forces. No regulation of nuclear industry, no regulation of oil, no regulation of the price of rice, etc. The end result, of course, is disaster for the common man, be it environmental destruction or 1930s-style starvation, and yet the laissez faire capitalist continues unabated, unapologetic and still rich.

So whenever someone says they are for "free markets" and for "market forces" ask them (or yourself) if they really mean what they say in absolutes. Maybe they just mean the apple industry should have less regulations but not the chemical dumping industry.

Now if you are following this still, then you will see the apple industry is different from the chemical dumping industry in substantive terms. Apples = yummy, chemicals = bad in water supply.

But wait aren't the apple (trade haggling scripts) industries basically the same as the chemical dumping (noninteractive attack scripts) industries? How can you really tell them apart? They both provide products and services and fundamentally try to make money. Procedurally, these industries function in the same way.

But I know you can see a (substantive) difference between the apple and chemical industries, now just apply that logic to scripts.

ps: if you read this all the way through, i'm amazed.

>sigh< It's sad how little each side sees the other's point of view.

I'm of the opinion that certain combat scripts lower the value of the game, so I suppose I'm in agreement with Stretch for the most part. However, I'm not entirely sure WHY everyone is so adamantly against his position.

He is NOT asking that scripts be disallowed in all games, merely that the server be configurable to discourage scripting. This means it would be up to the sysops whether scripts were allowed. Right now, there are no good ways to do this. The few related settings that exist are ineffective. If you disagree, try running a no-script server.

To those who told us to go make our own servers and play together (Traitor most notably), we do. We don't advertise here, though, nor in very many public forums. Why? Because ONE scripter can ruin the game for the rest of us by coming in and using a pdrop script. I'd go as far as to theorize, given this information along with some things Pritchett has said, that THIS community is the minority and there are enough small, private non-scripting games out there to outnumber the players who post here regularly.

And there, really, is the crux of the problem. I, at first, pointed fingers at scripts at being the problem. But I agree with Stretch and others, certain scripts are NECESSARY to the enjoyment of the game. The game is NOT fun if you have to manually haggle, manually colonize, and so on. That said, the game IS still quite fun without running other scripts, such as pdrops. That is the magic difference you guys are looking for between a trading script and a pdrop script. Trading scripts increase the enjoyment of the game for everyone by removing a monotonous task. Pdrop scripts decrease the enjoyment of the game for everyone by breaking the ship delay setting (requiring it to be turned off on ANY server allowing scripts) and tilting the playing field in the favor of those who can write the best scripts. Yes, the BEST scripts. Any argument that scripts are stupid can just as quickly be countered with the argument that certain people can write scripts that are smart enough to nullify that argument. And those same best scripts are the ones NOT available on the Grimy Trader (Traitor wouldn't even mention WHAT the script he was working on was doing in that chat log he posted--THAT is the type of secret scripting going on behind the scenes), so the argument that the playing field is still level goes right out the window with the one that scripts are stupid.

However, the biggest issue isn't scripts themselves. It's the planet warp having no delay. 99% of the scripts I personally consider overpowered and "bad" involve the exploitation of the game mechanic that planet warps are instant and ship warps should not be. I say should not be because the same people who like an old-fashioned game without pdrop scripts also like to use ship delays. I have yet to hear a good argument why ship delays SHOULDN'T be possible to use, merely that they AREN'T because of the pwarp problem.

In summary, I'll mention the main points and dissentions to Psion's points from the original post:
1) Scripts are dumb. Not all scripts. Every loophole can be patched, if you are a good scripter. This isn't CodeWars, this is TradeWars, and the best strategists who can think within the realm of the TW rules should win, not the best coders. As a programmer myself, I'm not even complaining here since I could probably write some of the best scripts. I'm just stating a fact and lamenting for those who can't code as well.
2) Timing is everything. Yes, having scripts that exploit the game mechanics without the ability to know WHEN to exploit the game mechanics is worthless, so I agree with this point. It's still exploitation of the fact pwarps are instantaneous, though.
3) Scripts can get you killed. Yes, scripts are iterative, and constantly being improved. Any beta script can get you killed. Even final version scripts can get you killed if you're not a good coder. But this isn't CodeWars, it's TradeWars. Should programming ability be the primary skillset needed to win the game?
4) Scripts are not new. In general, the fast-attack pdrop style scripts are, and the utilitarian scripts are not. Utilitarian scripts are not the ones we have a problem with, as stated previously.
5) Scripting has made the game more strategic by eliminating monotony. Again, we DO make a distinction between utilitarian scripts and hunter-killer ones, and I think everyone agrees that TW would be much less fun without autohaggle.
6) Scripts are not secret treasure. Then why did Traitor censor the chat log he posted? The FACT is that there ARE secret scripts out there, and they are the ones least likely to be manipulated as in your point 1, which just reinforces the "field is not level" argument.

So what is the difference between utilitarian scripts and advanced kill scripts? Two key things. One, utilitarian scripts are much more simple, and thus ARE available to everyone. Advanced kill scripts have v1, which can be manipulated into burning all the ore and turning against the script owner, available to everyone. And v2.8, which can only be manipulated by CounterScript v2.9, both of which are kept highly confidential in secret permacorp vaults, never to be ran by anyone but themselves. Two, utilitarian scripts by their very nature REMOVE MONOTONY from the game, which translates into increasing the level of fun for everyone. Advanced kill scripts by their very nature REMOVE PLAYERS from the game, which translates into a decrease of fun for everyone besides the scripter cackling maniacally at his keyboard after manipulating the game logic in an unintended way just one more time to slaughter his latest foe with instant planetary movement.

If you still don't agree that there is a difference between utilitarian scripts and pdrop scripts, please find me someone who is against utilitarian scripts such as paired port trading scripts. I'll be very surprised if you find even one.

quote:Again I say that you are not competent to make an expert opinion without having SPECIFIC knowledge of the area in question.Or in other words, you can only know if high level scripts are bad if you use high level scripts. Brilliant circular logic. Let the laissez faire capitalists regulate themselves because they are the only ones to know how laissez faire capitalism works! I like how you rejected my scripting experience out of hand, yet predictable.

quote:Ahem *Argumentum Ex Silentio* AhemYet you continue to deflect the esssence of my point to have something to do with Coke himself. It doesn't. It has to do with the type of player he is. His type does not survive in competitive games without attaching themselves to your type. You can pout all you want that this isn't true. You've already stipulated high level scripts give an advantage so the burden is for you to prove high level scripts don't win games.

quote:I would be interested is listening to your explanation of how you CLEARLY DELINEATE the difference between what sorts of scripts are acceptable and what sort aren't.You're smart enough to know that the most brilliant thinkers in this country can't do this for any number of issues after months of thought (think Supreme Court). You are going to have to deal with a lack of clarity. If you want to define things in terms or morals, which I do not, be clear that you are moralizing things are good and portraying me as moralizing things are bad. Yet, you are moralizing, yourself. So lets not walk down Red Herring road together.

quote:Well, not too many people seem to agree with you thatargumentum ad populum

quote:You're pissy and you're whining. There's no qualifier so now you are just being mean spirited. =(

quote:psuedo-intellectualism extremely distastefulWould you prefer knock-knock fart jokes or serious debate made up of concise words? I'm not trying to be your friend and you don't own the game of Trade Wars and neither do I. Defending status quo does not give you a moral authority.