quote:
I believe our real goal in Iraq was not the WMD issue, but to remove a dictator and his followers because of the atrocities that they commited. WMD was an excuse, but one that should not have been necessary in light of the human rights abuses there. The end result is that the United States did what had to be done to end the abuses.


Promethius,
If you really think that its ok for the US to invade other countries just because of human rights abuses, then you will be ok with us invading North Korea, China, Somolia, Uzbekistan and any other goverment that "abuses human rights".

All the while our roads crumble, our goverment goes bankrupt, WE THE PEOPLE go bankrupt, and our dept kepts climbing and climbing and we alienate nation after nation after nation. Yah, real smart.

I can tell alot of you people that support Bush and his cronies like to be lied to, and can't face the fact that YOU WERE LIED TO, to go to war.

My point is, is that Bush lied and now FAR more people are dying now than before we invaded. This doesn't just include "Insurgents", but women and children! I know some of you just don't care, but if you listen to Aljazeera or ABCNNBCABCFOX, your just listening to propaganda from BOTH sides.

Stockton i love how you try to label some of us as "LEFT WING". I'm NOT a Left winger, i'm a TRUTH SEEKER, and i know when i'v been lied to or "HAD" and Bush has "HAD" all of you, while he's laughing all the way to the bank.

And you know what, we DON'T own Israel, they OWN US. Have you ever researched how much money Israel gives to our member's of Congress, while Congress gives Israel kickbacks with YOUR TAX Dollars?

Come'on, get real, do some real research and you will find ALOT of crap you don't hear on ABCNNBCBSFOX.

There is soooo much crap going on BEHIND the scenes you would FLIP your top if you only knew the truth. But, like most american's you will believe whatever you hear on the news, which by the way is NOT required by law to tell us the truth! Did you know that?

Ok, it seems you still do not see anything so here are my points, numbered to make them easier for you to understand;

1. Iraq had been inspected over and over again for the so called WMD and they were never found by the UN, and now they havent been located by our American forces. As far as the reasons to go to war, if that was not one of them, it should not have been overstated, restated, and over used. The bottom line is Bush when to congress with one main reason for the invasion of Iraq, they had weapons of mass destruction capable of hurting near by allies. He said this when he addressed the nation, and the world in his State of the Union address. Watch it if you need. The main reason he stated, over and over again was that Iraq was an immidate threat to the world and peace loving nations, NOT TO ITSELF OR ITS PEOPLE, to the world and peace loving allies.

2. The inncidents of tourture, rape, and desicration of holy Islamic books and beliefs are not isolated, and they have happend over and over again in Iraq. The media is just getting wind of many of these incidents, and as time goes bye, and more investigation continues, it becomes apparent that America has tourtured, killed, raped, and descrated more than any American could have believed. From Generals to Privates, many have been involved and aware of the dastardly conduct in Iraq.

3. We went in with what coalattion? Brittan and US? Everyday in the news you dont hear about "6 Turksih" "6 Russian" or "6 anything" but American and Brittan soilders were killed in a road side attack. And dont you say its becuase it doesnt make since to tell us about other people, its becuase its not happening. Many nations are pulling the plug on any support they ever gave the US in this situation and ever more nations have never gave us their full support. France, Spain, Russia, China, India, the list goes on and on, no one has given us the time of day, except for the boys of Brittan, and you see what they are getting for it, political turmoil in the UK.

4. Isarel, your a joke. I wasnt even talking about Iraq I was talking about the oppression of Syria, Jordan, and other surronding Muslim nations by Isarel, and the US's unwillingness to stop them, or to use diplomatic means to put an end to the killing of innocent women and childern. Re-read that part of my post.

5. Aljazeera - The reason I believe that this news agency is credible is becuase they bring things in from the other point of view, the Muslim side of the coin. You see you dont like them becuase they bring in the truths that other media outlets refuse to deal with. And its not just that Muslim news agency, they are just the biggest.

I believe that I refuted you on ALL points you dumb Butt Republican. And if you want to have an open debate, lets have one. I'm telling you that you are Republican, your a hardcore American, and you refuse to think that your, that my, country may be evil, you are nieve as I once was.

(Apologies over the spelling, didnt have time to run spell check)

i would rather be a dumb Butt republican that is part of the countries majority and who owns congress then a ***** liberal faggot

"And that is the problem with a lot of people - no respect for others and their beliefs. There are good and bad examples of people in all cultures and to stereotype an entire religion based on fringe elements is one of the worst things we can do. Wars have been fought by many groups based on their religion and the intolerance for others religion.

Another person's religion is something that we should respect, and your statement shows intolerance in its worst light. If you fail to respect someone's religion, how can you ever hope to have them respect yours?

Promethius -- ex USAF and Darn proud of it"

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to believe that freedom of religion is one of the founding principals of our great nation. We certainly do need to have the freedom to practice whichever religion we wish to. This is one of many fundamental freedoms that we enjoy - and take for granted.

Wouldn't it be nice if the rest of the world, especially the Middle East region, could be as tolerant of people and religion as the United States is to our own citizens? I agree with Promethius on this. The big picture for what is happening in Iraq IS to remove a ruthless dictator that is sponsoring terrorism and oppressing his own people for cultural differences. There were many reasons for this to happen, but lets start thinking of this war in terms of what the region will be like in 15 years. I think that we need to shift our thinking away from President Bush, Isreal, jihad, and any other distraction and really take the time to consider what the long term effects of democracy in Iraq will be for the region and, ultimately, for the world. Let's think about the big picture here.

The chances are that we all live in free countries. Have you ever thought what it would be like to grow up and live in Iraq under Saddam? Would you honestly prefer to live like this? If you did live like this, wouldn't you be extremely happy to know that your children now have a very good chance of growing up in a free country?

Kaboom

BTW, Stonewall - I'm praying for you man. I pray that you will be able to make your contribution and then return home safely.

Thanks for 2 things: Your server for all of us to play on, and for serving in the military. You are truly a man of service.

Kaboom

Back to the first reason I started this post, I have been, and I will continue to pray for you Stonewall, make us proud.

Wow... This thread could go on forever about who did what to who.
I don't mean persons, I mean countries. Over the years Many countries have hated each other. I am an old head. I was taught in school to hate Russia. I was taught to hate Cuba. I was taught to hate North Vietnam.
Now Kids in and out of school know nothing of the hatred we were taught.
Russia is now and ally(sort of), Cuba is nothing to worry about (we still have sacntions agaisnt them), and N.Vietnam is starting to worry people.
WTF PEOPLE! Wake up!! We are in active combat in at LEAST 5 different places in the world. Ah but you say " I only know about Iraq and Afganistan. DO some reseach, complain about our Military dying everywhere not just one ****hole country.
My son is a Marine (SEMPER FIDELIS!). I am aware that he can go into active combat at anytime in 5 places in the world as I type. With his job as a forward observer, he will be targeted for death by other armies. Am I worried? Darn right! Do I care? Darn Right! Do I think our leaders are a bunch of no good jerks that do what they think will help them get re-elected? Possible. Making descisions that could result in losing men/women in our armed forces to hostiles is not something they do to get votes. These are choices they have to make. I am not a fan of Bush. But I am glad he is in office. And about Iraq, Lets see what was it 15000 iraqis found in mass graves? Screw WMD, we had to go to stop what he was doing.
Oh yeah Traitor, maybe you should read the bible a bit closer. God has put these people(christians) in power. And we as christians are supposed to honor that whether or not we agree.
You know that old saying America Love it or leave it. Lets see how long you would last in Iraq with out losing your head or hanging from a bridge. If you really hate american leaders Than GET THE F&^@K OUT and go to France, heh yeah France, become a citizen there and see where you will be.
There is a reason that America has the oldest Democracy in the world.


I don't know if that made any sense or not.
In Elsalvador The penalty for drunk driving is execution on the spot. No trial, no appeals, no 2nd offense. Move there if you do not like it here. [:)]

Bethel

quote:Originally posted by Bethel Hues

[orange]
I don't know if that made any sense or not.
In Elsalvador The penalty for drunk driving is execution on the spot. No trial, no appeals, no 2nd offense. Move there if you do not like it here. [:)]

Bethel


Wow. That doesn't sound very friendly to me... not that I have a problem with that particular offense, but it is another solid reminder of just how much freedom that we enjoy and take for granted.
Has anyone considered the rights of women in Iraq at all? Don't you think that it is a good thing to free them from the cuffs of Saddam's regime in which they have absolutely no rights? I'm sure that most of us TW players are men, but this is something that so many people overlook. Women in Iraq have so much more freedom today than they did just 2 years ago!

Kaboom

Rememeber how I was telling you that America had turned its back many times on countries that Isarel oppressed? Well check this link out http://ifamericaknew.org/ ,this link only goes to show you how the American medi truly works.

You know, I've been reading through this and some of what I read really makes me ill. Americans, whose country was founded under the principle of freedom of religion saying they would 'wipe their butts with the quarn'. This is wrong. A religion did NOT start this trouble, ultimately, 1 person started it. Bin Laden. First by bombing the WTC then having aircraft fly into it bringing it down. Yes, there are people over there hiding behind their holiest of teachings and declaring a 'holy war' on whoever they choose to and I agree that anyone doing so should be taken out with dispatch. Would I, myself, want to be over there? HECK no!. I have this aversion to little red runny sores developing upon my body. Do the people over there want to be there? For the most part probably not. Will anyone EVER agree that this was a good thing? Certainly not. I say if you feel that strongly about us either being there or not being there, this is the wrong place to prove it. The proper place would be Washington DC.

Daniel, I'll say this. In some respects you may just be right. But in other aspects you are indeed off base. While no WMD, which are defined as being neuclear, biological or chemical in nature, in working order weren't found, the basic raw components WERE found buried in the desert. Now, if these chemicals that were found buried were for a legitimate use, why bury them? There were also mobile labs found to process the weapons, as well a few stockpiled artillery shells that were suspected of having been used for poison gas.

So, write your congresspersons, senators, even your Aunt Mabel if you really want what you say to have meaning.

lol i love how people are focusing on one ignorant line i wrote while i was wasted at 3 in the morning, enstead of some of the unbelievable comments said about our own country and president.. and me saying ill wipe my butt with quran has nothing to do with my religious intolerance towards others.. im not even religious<christain> what have u... i said it to prove a point that the left wing media will blow up the story about the quaran to hurt bush when in the grand scheme of things its just a book with paper in it.. lets be real here folks.. and please dont confuse my arguments or rants with psion.. psion is a moderate, intelligent, well informed person who knows what he is talking about and has made great points,, psion is NOT a republican or a conservative.. i admit im a rightwing prick trying to get a rise out of libbies, but dont confuse that with the truths psion has been tellin in here..

Byron MacGregor - Gordon Sinclair's 'Americans'.mp3 (hes canadian)

go download, listen, then come here to talk smak about America![B)]
http://www.saber.net/~computers/the_pack/Americans.mp3

Gordon Sinclair was a colorful figure in 20th-century Canadian radio journalism. For over 40 years he produced a daily radio series called "Let's Be Personal;" he gained a reputation for "telling it like it is" and became a familiar figure to millions of listeners. Sinclair is especially remembered for a broadcast he made praising the United States on June 5, 1973. The text of that broadcast, known as "The Americans," has been widely circulated on the Internet, particularly after the air attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11th of 2001.

quote:Originally posted by Daniel_E_Higginbotham

Rememeber how I was telling you that America had turned its back many times on countries that Isarel oppressed? Well check this link out http://ifamericaknew.org/ ,this link only goes to show you how the American medi truly works.


Go read some history and learn something about how the Middle East has become what it is. You have the wrong impression of Israel.

I don’t do political arguments so I’ll drop it there.

You make that sound like a bad thing. I think many of you would be pleasantly surprised. No guns, No gangs, lots of beer and strippers that take it ALL off.

quote:Originally posted by Stockton

btw, i will wipe my Butt with the quran,


Unfortunatly Stockton, it looks like we're already doing it oversea's. You should send your application to the Head of the Guantanamo base, i'm sure they got a position there that would be a perfect fit for you!

Laff