ok to clearify, 1981 iran,iraq stared crap with themself and us=USA
the Shaw of iran, and the Ia Tola Komeany(?), we been there trying to keep peace for the last 30 or so years, and now im glad we will force
peace in Iraq,,and Iran is next then seria.

and my point was to all the young ones out there that read ,watch TV.
Go there and see how blood thirsty, and narrow mindedand, ruthless, the poor people the USA is picking on! while thay are sitll young and know it All.

ok hehe cool and i agree with you, but didnt know from your first post

Zilla - Ayatullah Khomeini Other than spelling, dead on. The culture there is vastly different and there is a distinct lack of the respect for human life that is present in our culture.

Okay I point havocatl and the others that think we are the ones who are the aggressors,(IE left wingers) to my first post, telling about the UN playing Panzies on taking charge of the situation. And also does anyone remember the first attempt on the Towers? I do and remember it well, I had to go to the Midlle East to track down the ones involved in it and we found then that Saddam was involved in that one as well, and we were going to take all out that was in on it and Saddam as well, but the Liberals saved his hide then, and even now they are talking on sparing him, I say put a bullet in his head and be done with him and move on to Osama binLaden. I was in the service at the time of all this and had to do things that I personally didn't like. But as a dedicated soldier, I did my duty and protected America from the Terrorists and did my job well, too bad all of involved will not get recognition for this. But it was the times and now it is open season on them, we should support the erradication of terrorism of any kind, not only for our sake, but for the world in general. I think if the rest of the free world would get involved, then we all might get something done. Just my .02 cents and then some.

Vulcan

Vulcan - Yea IMO we should have left the U.N. 12 years ago,and kicked them out of that Killer Building we built and paid for, and make them
setup shop some where else!!! BTW the U.N. wants us to update,and renovate that building for free now.[V]

and the WTC bombing First time i remember that.[:(!]

--

I honestly refuse to debate with those who have very bias opinions. I want to tell you a few things, the day that Sept. 11th happened, I was furious, to the point of tears, so mad that I cursed the Arab nations, Bin Laden, and "the Base". I was so hate filled that every time I saw pictures of the Twin Tower ruble I was thinking to myself, you bastards, if I only had the chance to be alone with you a few minutes.

Eventually my mind cleared a bit, and I started doing some research via Aljazeera (go to Yahoo! and search for it, find the English addition) and my eyes began to open a bit. the bin Laden made public a statement to the populs of the United States, the world, and in this memo he basically noted that America had not been attacked without warning, without reason, so I did some research into the matter, and I found out startling news, America had supported the oppression of Syria, Jordan, etc. by the Nation of Israel. Thousands of women and children where killed by the Israeli Army, and where not talking about the "6 day war" we are talking out of oppression and terrorist tactics. Basically the research I had compiled led me to believe that America had turned its back many times when other countries where oppressing and killing thousands of innocent civilians.

My eyes began to open more and more. At some point, I think "State of the Union" address, Bush urged congress to support his proposed invasion of Iraq to rid the country of a nation with power WMD. It surfaced in the news that Bush had been told that he didn't need the support of congress to send the nations army to war, that enraged me beyond belief, but congress eventually approved anyway, and off to war we went! "To disarm a country with a huge stockpile of WMD" (2 years later, no such weapons have been located, no traces, nothing, and the country has been searched far and wide)

Bush lost his credibility with me at this point, I tried to support him before, but at this exact moment when he "morphed" to the "At least the world is free of a horrible dictator" Bush. Mighty Morphing Bush!

As far as the prison scandal goes, America is America, we are supposed to defend the weak, protect the children and women, and to be Noble in victory, yet we are not. Abusing prisoners, killing unarmed insurgents. Violating world law, and committing acts against humanity, of which we know the dictator Hussein performed.

You people do your research, you see what America has done, off the record, then you come back with some credible sources and some fact, and we will talk about politics.

Stockton, I know more about Politics than you know about anything bro. So keep it shut.

On a side note, http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage ,go check out the article about the American descration of the Quran, Muslim Holy Book.

And you'll see just how loved the "libarators" of America truly are.

ender if u do know more than me then you just totally screwed yourself by claimin aljazera as a credible news.. wow you are so far out of it that i cant even comprehend what is going through your left wing mind.. im just glad the majority of the country feels same way as me or i might have to move to canada myself.. wow ender aljazerra??? laff

btw, i will wipe my Butt with the quran,

quote:Originally posted by Daniel_E_Higginbotham

I honestly refuse to debate with those who have very bias opinions. I want to tell you a few things, the day that Sept. 11th happened, I was furious, to the point of tears, so mad that I cursed the Arab nations, Bin Laden, and "the Base". I was so hate filled that every time I saw pictures of the Twin Tower ruble I was thinking to myself, you bastards, if I only had the chance to be alone with you a few minutes.

Eventually my mind cleared a bit, and I started doing some research via Aljazeera (go to Yahoo! and search for it, find the English addition) and my eyes began to open a bit. the bin Laden made public a statement to the populs of the United States, the world, and in this memo he basically noted that America had not been attacked without warning, without reason, so I did some research into the matter, and I found out startling news, America had supported the oppression of Syria, Jordan, etc. by the Nation of Israel. Thousands of women and children where killed by the Israeli Army, and where not talking about the "6 day war" we are talking out of oppression and terrorist tactics. Basically the research I had compiled led me to believe that America had turned its back many times when other countries where oppressing and killing thousands of innocent civilians.

My eyes began to open more and more. At some point, I think "State of the Union" address, Bush urged congress to support his proposed invasion of Iraq to rid the country of a nation with power WMD. It surfaced in the news that Bush had been told that he didn't need the support of congress to send the nations army to war, that enraged me beyond belief, but congress eventually approved anyway, and off to war we went! "To disarm a country with a huge stockpile of WMD" (2 years later, no such weapons have been located, no traces, nothing, and the country has been searched far and wide)

Bush lost his credibility with me at this point, I tried to support him before, but at this exact moment when he "morphed" to the "At least the world is free of a horrible dictator" Bush. Mighty Morphing Bush!

As far as the prison scandal goes, America is America, we are supposed to defend the weak, protect the children and women, and to be Noble in victory, yet we are not. Abusing prisoners, killing unarmed insurgents. Violating world law, and committing acts against humanity, of which we know the dictator Hussein performed.

You people do your research, you see what America has done, off the record, then you come back with some credible sources and some fact, and we will talk about politics.

Stockton, I know more about Politics than you know about anything bro. So keep it shut.

On a side note, http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage ,go check out the article about the American descration of the Quran, Muslim Holy Book.

And you'll see just how loved the "libarators" of America truly are.


Ummmmm,

I know I said I wouldn’t acknowledge you again but ummmmmm.

Naaa never mind.

quote:Originally posted by Stockton

btw, i will wipe my Butt with the quran,


And that is the problem with a lot of people - no respect for others and their beliefs. There are good and bad examples of people in all cultures and to stereotype an entire religion based on fringe elements is one of the worst things we can do. Wars have been fought by many groups based on their religion and the intolerance for others religion.

Another person's religion is something that we should respect, and your statement shows intolerance in its worst light. If you fail to respect someone's religion, how can you ever hope to have them respect yours?

I know, you really don't care if they respect your religion or not, or if anyone has respect for you. Your statement makes you sound like a self-rightous <sp> person with a very narrow minded view of the world. I am hoping that this is not the case and that you have just not had sufficient experience in dealing with people who are different from you and your views.

We, as Americans, should take pride in the value we place on other people's right to worship as they see fit. One of our most precious freedoms is to practice the religion of our choice. Intolerance of another's religion is the opposite of one of America's core values.

I believe our real goal in Iraq was not the WMD issue, but to remove a dictator and his followers because of the atrocities that they commited. WMD was an excuse, but one that should not have been necessary in light of the human rights abuses there. The end result is that the United States did what had to be done to end the abuses. Our soldiers are doing a very good job under the circumstances that they are in, and I do not believe they are dieing in vain. I am proud of those who serve and of those that served in the past so we have the freedom to debate issues such as this.

Hopefully Stonewall will read this thread and be assured that the majority of Americans are thankful that he and others like him chose to serve in the military. While it has been stated that this is a war made by man, there is still nothing wrong in praying to keep our troops safe and for the people of Iraq to someday find peace - in the religion of your choice.

Promethius -- ex USAF and Darn proud of it.

whoa!! why not forget about all this and go play a game of tradewars?

"I know, you really don't care if they respect your religion or not, or if anyone has respect for you. Your statement makes you sound like a self-rightous <sp> person with a very narrow minded view of the world. I am hoping that this is not the case and that you have just not had sufficient experience in dealing with people who are different from you and your views."

nope that is the case

You keep missing the point of my post Stockton. Aljazeera in my mind is just as credible as say CNN. But that was not the point of the post you see, the point of the post was to enlighten you a bit and help you see why I have the views that I do. But it seems like you dont read it all, so I'll stop trying.

Ender, while I agree that Stockton was out of line with that quip about the Quran, it seems to me that is it YOU who are not reading all of the posts. I have repeatedly countered your arguments, but you ignore my points and go on to yet another baseless rant. So one last time, I'm gonna break it down for you. I'll even number it to make it easier for you to follow along. Dispute these points, if you can.

1. WMD - When the intention to invade Iraq was originally declared, WMD was only one of several reasons put forward for it, and it was not put front and center by the administration. It excited the fear-mongering news media and got much more coverage than any of the other reasons. Knowing good PR when he sees it, Bush went with the flow. He did not "invent" other reasons afterwards. Numerous major intelligence services, even international ones, believed that Saddam had WMD. Was there anything supremely conclusive? No, but there was a LOT of circumstantial evidence which looked pretty convincing. After the invasion, we were able to get our hands on numerous documents providing more information. The fact is that Saddam THOUGHT he had biological and chemical weapons. He was in fact funding these programs. Strangely enough, the sanctions had been somewhat effective and prevented any progress from being made. But no one was brave enough to tell Saddam that they had failed and were wasting his money, so they gave him false reports of success. If he didn't even know he didn't have WMD, we can hardly be blamed for doing the same.

2. Abu Ghraib, torture, etc - Yes Abu Ghraib was a fubar. Yes it was wrong. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We have certainly made mistakes, but they tend to be isolated incidents. Abu Ghraib was an abberrant freak, not a typical case. We shut down the systematic rape, torture and murder infrastructure that was put into place by Saddam.

3. "Going it alone" - We did NOT go it alone. We went in with a coalition. Granted, almost everyone but Great Britain was politically strongarmed into sending token forces. But not GB, they are full partners with us in setting things right over there. We had been trying the diplomatic approach you think would have worked since the end of the first Gulf War. Maybe you didn't know this, but American pilots were flying DAILY combat patrols against Iraqi forces from the "end" of the first Gulf War, right up until the beginning of the second. Hostilities never ceased. Saddam never stuck to the terms of the UN agreements. He never stopped trying to kill our brave soldiers. Despite his continued flaunting of UN sanctions and agreements, the UN refused to see the necessity of solving the problem using military force. You might ask why and look at that as "proof" that Bush is barbaric and overly aggressive, but only if you refuse to dig deeper and find the truth. Some of our biggest "allies" were making fortunes off of Saddam by selling him prohibited miltary equipment and ripping off the Oil For Food program. French and Russian companies were conclusively involved in the sale of illegal equipment to Saddam, including modern night vision goggles and GPS jammers. UN staff members (including Kofi Annan's own son!) were directly complicit in allowing these transactions to take place and in ripping off the Oil For Food program. And with the OFF program, we're not just talking about some unnamed companies. We're talking about close personal and professional associates of Putin and Chirac. Think about that. Chirac's close personal friends were making millions of dollars off this program. And Chirac didn't know about it? He was clearly personally complicit as well. The same goes for Putin. France and Russia would have done just about anything to block the UN from from going into Iraq with military force, both to cover their truth of their involvement, and to prevent their cash cow from being shut down.

4. Israel - Was Israel eager for us to get involved in Iraq? Certainly. Saddam was openly funding Palestinian suicide bombers. To them, striking at Iraq was self defense. Has Israel committed atrocities? Certainly. But I think you misunderstand the nature of our relationship with Israel. We OWN them. I mean that literally. Israel is not even close to being financially solvent, we give them billions of dollars a year in grants and low interest loans to keep them afloat. That gives us leverage. Why do you think they did a sudden 180 on their settlement program? Bush leaned on them. Why do you think they have been cooperating so nicely? Bush leaned on them. Israel has been under constant attack from the entire Arab world since its inception. Its natural that under that kind of stress, mutual atrocities will take place. I'm not condoning it, and neither is the American goverment. We're FORCING them into the peace process using the threat of their insolvency. We're making them redress past wrongs, not encouraging new ones.

5. Al Jazeera - Laff. You think that Al Jazeera is as credible as CNN? Can you say "agitprop"? Al Jazeera is even more openly biased than you seem to think we are. Other Arab news outlets refuse to show certain videos, such as beheadings, because it only incites more hatred and gives the insurgents more attention and credibility. Not Al Jazeera, they play EVERYTHING the insurgents send them. They love to see Westerners killed. They have daily talk shows that openly tell lies about how all the American soldiers are committing mass murder and rape. They openly and repeatedly encourage Iraqis to take up arms against American soldiers and encourage foreign fighters to enter Iraq to fight in the Jihad. They have even sacrificed their own news crews to further their propaganda. It has happened several times now that the US military has warned all journalists (including Al Jazeera) away from certain places where there is currently a lot of combat going on. Al Jazeera intentionally sends news crews into these areas and places them with the insurgents. So what happens? We bomb the insurgents and the AJ news crew along with them. Al Jazeera does a series of stories on how we are intentionally killing their journalists to keep the "truth" a secret. What a load of BS.

I've got more, but I'm tired of this and I'm tired of you, Ender. If you refuse to speak to "who have very bias opinions", then you will end up only talking with people who agree with you. I might point out that you yourself are quite biased, and Al Jazeera is even more so, but I doubt you appreciate the irony of the pot calling the kettle black.

So refute me on a point by point basis if you can, if not then STFU. Your attitude is ridiciulous, your stance is amoral. If things had gone the way you wanted them to, hundreds of thousands more Iraqi civilians would be dead.