I hate to post here but one of the last ones was just a bit to much. What makes us right? What makes us wrong? If you prefer that way of life over the one you are provided please feel free to move over there. (I will buy your tickit) I care little for Bush, and for the war but I will not bash the good that is being done over there.

Stonewall, do us proud and thank you for what you sacrafice for others freedom. May God be your light in the times of dark you now face.

Dont bash the good, but dont forget the evil as well. Prisoners being abused, beaten, pissed on, etc. Defensless "insurgents" being shot in the head after they are totally unarmed and down. Women and childern being killed on a daily basis becuase America is unable to defeat what we once thought was possible.

I think that if we were truly fighting only Iraq here, the war would have been over when it was declared over, but we are fighting something much bigger, the zealots of Islam. Those who believe so strongly in their cause and their faith they are willing to die til their is no one left standing.

I just think its wrong for America to make up the rules, and if the rest of the world refuses to abide by our set of standards and rules, we decleare war, or embargo, or do something that makes the hole nation suffer. IE: Cuba, Iraq, etc. etc.

But god bless the soilders who do their duty, and do it honorably.

That's an asinine stance to take Ender. Like I said, yes we have made mistakes, yes innocent people have died. But more have been saved. If everyone thought like you, Saddam would still be in power. Maybe you don't realize what that means. Widespread, systematic torture, rape, and brutalization.

We're not "making up the rules". We're enforcing basic standards of decency. A few bad apples have done some detestable things over there, but even counting Abu Ghraib, there is hugely less torture going on over there.

You want to complain about an "defenseless" insurgent being shot? Thats so insignificant compared to what Saddam did to his own people that its a joke. HE MURDERED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE! So don't whine to me about the death of some schmuck who had been shooting at American soldiers only a few minutes beforehand.

Your words seem to have an attitude like you're a humanist, like you'd like us to believe that you care more about human life than those who support the war. But the meaning of your words is basically wishing we had condemned hundreds of thousands more people to rape, torture and death. I strongly suggest you re-evaluate your stance. Think about it instead of listening to the BS propaganda Michael Moore spews out. If after seriously thinking about it you still feel the same way, then I would feel comfortable describing you as an amoral and inhumane person. Our soldiers in Iraq are SAVING lives. Period.

Hay lets do it like TW, invade and pod all the countrys,nuke, and navhaz Terra, Lock the planet down and have God post the results on EIS [:D]

Let me make something very clear to you, millions will die before America ever forms a stable country in Iraq. It will be millions of Americans, military and non-military. It will be innocent women and childern, have you seen the escalating path of destruction in Iraq? I know most of you would say, they are just trying to fight it out, its almost over, and I laugh at you, becuase you will see over time how many will die.

I just hope that it isnt any of you guys. I pray for Stonewall, and I pray for his return, but I am fully aware, as is he, that he may never step back on American soil...alive. I have seen the pictures, the horror, and I know its not over.

Its not longer being tourtured by men in chambers, controlled, its now anarchy in the streets, being tourtured by not knowing if tommorw you will still be alive. Car bombs by day, kid napping by night, and in no way is it even near over.

I am thinking that I would rather keep my soilders at home, and wait for the UN and NATO to go in with me. Share the burden, but no! Bush goes in with core support from...Brittan! Duh, ok, Brittan has shared most of the burden with us, but without them, our cause is lost.

I promise you, America will never be victorius in this, will you feel robbed when a Democrat brings the boys home?

ON a side note, we both know that you could care less about any one in Iraq, if you did, you would have done the research and seen that America has turned its back on the people of Iraq before. We installed the terrorist Suddam into power, and he took over. We installed him for our pourposes of defeating Iran, at any cost, and when he couldnt, we started calling him a murder, etc.

Look up the facts, we created the monster, and let him kill for decades.

i absolutely hate when people say "america" put him in power, ie. saddam, osama... yes the cia and america has worked with unsavory characters in the past to take on the bigger and more threatening enemy at the time ie. russia, iran.. that has nothing to do with the present and what needs to be done NOW>. sheesh we could of helped hitler gain power and by your logic when ww2 went down we better have stayed out or take criticism from people like you.. ender you really are laughable and i hope u know people dont look at u as a smart guy making his case but rather as an "america is evil" leftist extremist who is way out of his league on this one.. youve done research? what biased news are u getting your "facts" from? i understand after GW won in a sweeping reelection you and your fellow libbies world fell apart.. were u one of the fags that needed phschiatric help? dont offer your prayers to soldiers and then claim they are turning their back on the people of iraq,, they are in a very tuogh situation and at times dont know who their enemy is and in spite of that they do every thing possible to save lives and help the people of iraq.. they know no matter what they do people like ender will be here to critisize and downplay their importance in this conflict.. america has clearly spoken in this last election, they dont want the path a democrat will bring that includes passiveness and sitting back and doing nothing..

lol enders main argument is abu ghraib, lol evil extremist muslims who watned to kill americans get a few pictures taken of them and that is a big deal??? they werent tortured.. they were embarrased..
i dont think anyone will sympathize with that argument ender..

My VOTE Nuke'um and take their oil ...
Those that servive make them Americans and pay tax like the rest of us

Shoot first, ask questions later is generally the rule of thumb for any Military personnel. So it doesn't surprise me that innocent people are being killed. That is the by-product of war that cannot be avoided.
Now my Butt is hurting from sitting on the fence for so long so let me jump off of it. Allow me pose this question (Psion). Even though it is already history (unlike Iraq) and we have the benefit of hindsight, In your honest opinion do you think that America was
quote:enforcing basic standards of decency when they invaded Vietnam?

Millions will die Ender? On what are you basing those numbers? You have no idea what will or will not happen. If you could read between the lines of the Leftist propaganda, you would see that things are actually improving in Iraq. Is it stable yet? Not by a long shot. But its getting better. People have electricity and clean drinking water, schools are open, unemployment is down.

Yes there are car bombs, yes there are kidnapping and assasinations. But progress is being made. The majority of those bombings and assasinations are directed against Iraqis. And they are tired of it. Tips are coming in, the insurgency does not have the broad based popular support it used to. Every time they kill more Iraqi civilians, they turn more people against them. Every time we capture an insurgent we get information from them on the locations of weapons caches and other insurgents.

Did we install Saddam. Sort of. You're telling half truths. America didn't put him into power, but we allowed him to get there and stay there. Even gave him weapons and money because at the time Iran was judged to be a greater threat. Thats politics, thats the way the world works. It's not the first time our country has done dirty things to achieve an end, and it won't be the last time. Don't act like its something new. We've done it in Iraq, Iran, Cuba, China, and numerous other places too.

As to waiting for the UN? Give me a break, you're so naive its almost painful. Remember how we tried TWICE to get the UN to go into Iraq? The UN steadfastly refused to be militarily involved in Iraq for one simple reason. Money. France and Russia had tons of secret deals with Iraq. They were making a mint bypassing UN sanctions to sell prohibited goods to Saddam. Where do you think Saddam got those night vision goggles and GPS jammers that were all over the news during the invasion? Goggles from France, jammers from Russia. Both prohibited. Who profited most from the Oil for Food Scandal? High level politicians and businessmen from both Russia and France. Along with Kofi Annan's own son! Several of the people most prominently involved in those deals were close personal friends and business associates of Jacque Chirac. The UN was never going to go into Iraq. It was too profitable to risk.

Great Britain and a few other countries saw the necessity of stopping Saddam and took action. They stood up for what is right. You'd rather hide and wait for someone else to solve your problems for you. I must admit I'm actually suprised Ender. I didn't think it was possible to think less of you, but somehow I do.

quote:
This is not true, both British and American (mood point - but the only two Intelligence agencies to come forward with info) agencies were stumbling to provide any real evidence of weapons, outside of some bogus satellite photos.

Zoso,
Don't forget Israeli Intelligence. Not only did we invade Iraq for the Oil and for America's Security, but for Israel's Security.

Israel has alot of influence with our leaders. Why do you think we give them Billions of dollars a year? You don't hear Israel making a big stink about North Korea... no, just Iraq, Syria and Iran.

Personally I believe we invaded Iraq to appease Israel, and of course for the oil, and for Bush's "god given" vision of a Democratic Middle East.

I could go on and on, but i'm not interested in trying to convince anyone of my belief. I think that our goverment tried to use every excuse in the book to invade Iraq. First Iraq had WMD, then they had the "Capability" to make WMD. Then Iraq had a hand in 9-11. Then came the "Rape rooms" and "Torture Chambers".... blah blah blah.

Do I think Saddam was crazy? Yes. Do i think he needed to be removed from power? Probably. Do I think he supported terrorists? Maybe not against the US, but DEFINATLY against Israel.

We must all ask ourselves these questions.

Is the Iraq war worth the Billions of dollars we are spending?
Is the Iraq war worth the Centuries of Radioactive Depleted Uranium that will plague Iraq and our Service members for Centuries?
Is the Iraq war worth our children dying while our politicians have parties and joke about where Iraq's WMD's are?

I could keep going but this is a "TRADEWARS" forum, and this topic isn't about weather or not the war was right or wrong.

Just my 2 cents.

What happens if we pull all of our troops out of Iraq? Anarchy and civil war, most likely. Whether or not we should have gone there, we did, and it's a serious mistake to do half measures.

Does any remember 1979 to 1983, i do i was there, far as in concerned
the middle east, which been fighting with themselfs and others for 1000snds of years, so all you kids who read news papers,read books
watch TV, get off you young butts, buy a plane ticket go there and live it for a few years, then you will know the real truth, you cant read about,or see on TV, and im sure you will sing a new and diff tune than the one your singing now, and when you get back to the States i know the first thing you will do is kiss the dirt the second you get off the plane! and say glad im home!!!

lol zilla im not sure what to make of that jumbled mess you just presented us with.. i was born in 1979 so i dont really remember much but what side are u on exactly in this thread, it was unclear from your post hehe