quote:Originally posted by Zoso

I don't want to re-ignite a long debate regarding spoofing, as it seems all sides seem content with what has already been posted, but allow me to ask this question to those that believe spoofing is a legitimate tactic.
What would be the difference between me foiling a macro that your running (AFK or not) into causing you to macro CBY (by guessing your bot name) and me guessing your game password, logging in as you and manually CBYing?
In theory they are one in the same, by making the conscious decision to try and "Break" or "Guess" a security feature in either your script or the game itself, have I not crossed from being creative to cheating?
This one is probably off base a bit, but the idea is the same. How pissed would you be if i "Spoofed" your ATM password and withdrew all of your funds? Do you think i would get away by saying that the Bank's Internal Security is flawed and that it's their fault and not mine? The very essence of Security checks within scripts are their to keep out those that would exploit them.
I just don't see how anyone could justify a pre-meditated breach of known security features and feel that the are in the right?

Zoso
BTW - I'm not knocking anyone's ability to play the game, But I question the lack of better judgement.


I think a lot has to do with control. You have no control over someone trying to hack your game password. You can set a complex password, but you have no actual control over what they're doing or what security features are in place. When you run a script, you have absolute control over every aspect of it, including the decision to run it. With absolute control comes absolute responsibility. If you're unwilling to accept the responsibility of running a script, don't run it.

Well said harley... The game was made to be won.

Not at all Harley, I appreciate your viewpoint. Its seems I'm in the minority here, but oh well. Like I said earlier, I can't make anyone stop spoofing and even if I could, I wouldn't. As far as subverting the "intention" of the script, that was not the impression I meant to give. Perhaps a better phrasing would be subverting the functionality? Though I'm not sure that quite converys what I'm after either. Oh well. Thanks for the RELEVANT post *ahem lucky dog ahem* And if you ever get that "win the game" script working, let me know so I know which corp to join

Psion,
You're being a pretty good sport for being in the minority. If our paths cross in a non-tournament, you don't have to worry about me hacking your scripts. (unless it would be funny... [:D])

Happy Hunting!

I try Its just a game, its something I do for fun. No sense in letting my hobbies get me riled up, that would make it too much like work, heh. When it quits being fun, I'll quit. And regardless of whether we cross paths in a tournament or not, and regardless of whether it would be funny you don't have to worry about me trying to hack your scripts either! Thanks for posting, and while I haven't changed my mind, you, RammaR, Kavanagh, Harley et al have definately made me think about the issue in ways I hadn't before. I'm kinda thinking that pretty much everything that needs to be said has already been said though, and it's pry time to take Vader's advice and let this die. I think a lot of good arguments both for and against spoofing have been made, and we should just leave it up to the peanut gallery to make their own decisions as to what is and what isn't a valid tactic.

well after reading this over the past couple days, guess i'll throw my 2 in,
1) Run any script at ur own risk...
2) Everyone sees a good script they try to fund a way to beat it or outsmart it.
3) a bug in the game design is totally different from a script
4) Beatin a Bot script, Good Work, will teach them to be at the keys, instead of lettin someone else control them.
5) and Beatin a script once, no matter how done, normally makes the new version better.
6) hats off to Oz for doin it so fast and posting the link in forums.
7) right or wrong doesn't matter, beating a script is as much part of the game now as beatin a player is.
Personally when i use scripts i'm at the keys unless its defensive and i've only played with the bot scripts, don't like someone having that much control over me.

ok maybe the horse is down now...lol, i'll quit beatin it.
heh.. and also.. tell a noob that cby is a cheat code...i've seen it done

Please keep beating it... I can get more for it at the glue factory.

quote:Originally posted by Psion

I try Its just a game, its something I do for fun. No sense in letting my hobbies get me riled up, that would make it too much like work, heh. When it quits being fun, I'll quit. And regardless of whether we cross paths in a tournament or not, and regardless of whether it would be funny you don't have to worry about me trying to hack your scripts either! Thanks for posting, and while I haven't changed my mind, you, RammaR, Kavanagh, Harley et al have definately made me think about the issue in ways I hadn't before. I'm kinda thinking that pretty much everything that needs to be said has already been said though, and it's pry time to take Vader's advice and let this die. I think a lot of good arguments both for and against spoofing have been made, and we should just leave it up to the peanut gallery to make their own decisions as to what is and what isn't a valid tactic.


Having waded through all of the posts in this thread (without having been involved in the game where it appears someone made another player cby using a bug or 'feature' in Oz's bot [which has been corrected now])I would say it comes down to a matter of ethics. If one must use the bug/spoof to win then go ahead and dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back for 'GREAT' playing...I for one won't try stopping you but will always view you with susp*cion in any future games. IMHO...the difference between exploiting a bug or spoofing someone is about the same as a lady 'being pregnant' or 'in a family way'. Sigh...why is it usually the big games that bring out the instinct to win at any cost using any tactic? I know...it is 'TradeWARS' and I still like to believe there are ethical players in the game else I'd have been long gone! Just my 2 cents!

Well since i am the lucky one that they tried this on i thought i would say my 2 cents worth I agree with a lot of points made on both sides of the topic here or maybe 3 or 4 sides and I wish to say that I was never mad about it or to upset as it was just a game. I do feel it not the best tactic to use but i can understand it being use in a major game. I would just hope that people are not going to try these types of tactic in regular games. It will just chase away players and we don't need anymore of that. I guess i am just to much of a nice guy to ever want to try anything like that. Its to me just like scanning for someones ss channel. A lot of people do it or used to but again to me that is not ethical (opinion) and i would never try it.

I don't think we will ever all agree on certain things and woud be real boring if we did. So go play the game and if you don't like what you see move on to the next game there are many great servers out there and games to be played.

Thanks for your time

River Rat

Well said River Rat. There is one more core idea, if I can articulate it.

I enjoy Tradewars because I like trying to out-think & out-play my opponents. My idea of out-playing them is using my turns more efficiently, making more cash than the other corps, and using these resources to hunt them down and take their stuff. That is what I consider the win condition... not just taking their stuff, not just out-cashing them, but all of the above. I don't want to trick them into making mistakes, like "Use that CBY cheat code." I don't want to share their base location so someone else will fight my battles. There are real battles in real life that must be fought tooth and nail, victory at all costs. But to me, that doesn't apply here. I want the victory as much as the next guy, but I want it when my opponent is at their best. I want to know that the top of my game is better than the top of their game, and this is why I forego these grey-area tactics.

Could we win by employing SubSpace scanners and exploiting script weaknesses that cause opponents to CBY? Yes. But for me, and many of you, the real question is whether or not we can win without such tactics. Can we win if our opponent is not crippled in any way, when they are at their best? I encourage you to let this thought govern your actions.

And Jhereg, I commend your sentiment, and hope others will follow.

+EP+

ok
now i get to talk
a few quotes:

"I only consider things bugs when they circumvent the mechanics of the game, not the tactics or tools of the players."

how do you circumvent the mechanics of the game? code is code. if you can do it, it is part of the game mechanics. its a bug if it was a JP screw up that he intends to fix/fixed.
so until JP was aware, it wasn't a bug. does that make it right?

"It’s not a bug unless JP calls it one."

if JP says using ANY script is a bug... do you think people will stop using scripts? i doubt it.

"I would say it comes down to a matter of ethics. If one must use the bug/spoof to win then go ahead and dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back for 'GREAT' playing..."

exactly.
i dont care if its a bug or not, if its spoofing or not, whether this or that is "intended" blah blah
the point is, its unethical. its just a straight ****head thing to do.
(similar to jher's corp hailing my corpies to screw up saveme while we are gridding)(and yes, they did, havok and black fox)
so that means instead of trying to photon/kill you i should just hail spam your corp and then photon and kill you?
sorry if i think that is just wrong.
im sorry im not some uber computer geek.
if i am required to have a masters degree in computer programming and absolutely NO ethics whatsoever to win a game.. well, i guess i won't be winning any games anytime soon.
i could care less if its a major or just a regular game, because, its just a game! its meant for people to have FUN. at all times. sure, be competitive, sure use scripts, but if you have to use every dirty trick in the book just to do it, does that really make you the winner? you arent the best twars player or the best twars corp, you are just the one who knows the most twgs/script bugs and exploits them mercilessly.
i most certainly wont be playing in anything considered "major" for a long long time. i don't like cussing out people i like
also, using a bot we arent allowed to do cause we'll get cby'd... so is it better to just log straight in and run their turns? or play them by proxy so the IP is different? that way we wont get spoofed.
i've noticed the scripters/elites usually take one side of this arguement, and the non-elite/non-scripters usually side on the other. im thinking there is more than a coorilation there.

if you were at a bar, and a guy spilt your drink, would you punch him in the nuts? i hope not (if you are male) because you know that is just wrong. sure, you might punch him in the face or stomach or anywhere else, but in the back of your mind, a voice should say "dont hit him in the nuts".
its called your conscience.
i've noticed the "better" player you are, the less you feel heed to listen to that voice.

you claim to not want to drive away players, but driven away they will be.
what exactly makes a game a "major".
just cause its a certain edit?
whooptie doo, someone is running a certain "edit", i better do everything i can do to win, because if i dont, i will die.
oh wait, its STILL just a regular game, just some people for some reason, take it more serious.
i fail to understand why
but of course,
ill never be elite
maybe thats not a bad thing.

Slim

dont worry slim, you're 1337

Welcome back from you short absence Slim [:P]

Wow, go and move away to Rural-in-the-middle-of-nowhere-america and get connected back at least partially to Tradewars to find all this? I picked a bad time to lose internet connections. I can't wait till I get dialup working <pout> and talk to y'all on ICQ to find out what I am missing.

However, Psion is not in the total Minority. I agree with him for the most part. Just my coke cents =) Now back to figuring out why my phone lines don't work in my new place. <sigh>

thank god slim wrote that cause he saved me a long post! ty slim i totally agree,

lol am i the only one who could care less if i lose?? for me its about the day to day fun and combat of the game,, if at the end Jh has more uso's than us im aslmost sure i wont kill myself

this type of bs drives people away from game and should not be used,