Well, thats a scary point Traitor. It certainly could get to that point, but I hope it never does. Again it seems more of a matter of perspective though. If a script has bad logic and gets you killed, thats too bad. I think that intentionally manipulating loopholes to feed bad commands to a bot is in a different class though.

I wasn't gonna post again.. but what the heck so here goes

What about smack talk over fed-com or private hails? Trying to trick an opposing player or corp into visiting a sector or performing some action. In effect - "spoofing" the actual player(s)? This has also been done for years and while it may be devious, its been an accepted tactic as well. How is spoofing a player any different that spoofing a script? Or is this now a "bug" in the player's logic that's being exploited and shouldn't be used?

I neither share information nor *spoof*, if the latter means busting garbage robots (which I could do). I certainly do use unsolicited information given to me by third parties, not being suicidal.

quote:Originally posted by Psion

quote:Originally posted by Bethel Hues
What about us people that don't know how to code a script? And there are plenty of us out there. Are we supposed to study for months so we can finally figure out scripts and how to make them?
It really doesn't take months of study to learn to write basic scripts. It takes months of study to learn the game well enough to write complex scripts. Big difference. If you've never tried scripting before, I suggest you give it a shot. Regardless, people with little to no scripting ability are among the least likely to spoof, for obvious reasons.
quote:Originally posted by ghoury
jhereg is the man.. dont talk crap to this man.
Maybe you should read the thread closer before posting? I was (and am) sharply critical of something Jhereg did, but am hardly talking crap to him. I think Jhereg is an excellent player and a very nice guy. He oftens helps me out with game or scripting questions.
quote:Originally posted by RammaR
There's going to be a wide division of opinion on this subject just like there is on using bots for anything. So lets agree to disagree.
Done then. Like with Traitor, I can see what you're saying, I just feel otherwise. This is really more a matter of personal opinion than anything else. No real right or wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Kavanagh
Busting an opponent's script by taking advantage of it's architecture is not even remotely comparable with bug use. If they did not make it "bombproof", let them eat the consequences.

Not even remotely similar? A bug is a bug, a loophole is a loophole. Regardless of whether or not you think spoofing is a legit tactic, I think that bug use and exploiting a script's weaknesses via spoofing is remarkably similar. That is actually the biggest reason I'm so against spoofing.
quote:Originally posted by Kavanagh
Is the following info sharing and wrong?

Corp A and B have, say, 80% of game assets. One of the lessor corps, C, finds A, tells B, in the certain knowledge that B will hit A, thereby reducing both A and B corp strength. C is now relatively stronger. Smart move for C, I'd say. Megacorping? Nope. Should B ignore the info, wait for C to tell A instead? Hell no.
IMHO, yes it's info sharing, and yes its wrong. Is it a good tactic? Sure, makes perfect sense. Let your two enemies fight each other. As long as the server doesn't prohibit info sharing, knock yourself out. But just because something is not against the rules doesn't mean that we should all run right out and do it - there are still underlying ethics. My ethics keep me from info sharing or spoofing, yours don't. Does it matter? Not really, except that I'm not likely to corp with you for personal reasons. I strongly dislike these tactics, I feel they take away from the game, and I choose not to corp with (or where possible play against) people who use those sorts of tactics.
quote:Originally posted by Kavanagh
Macros dont accept inputs, not sure where you are coming from.
What happened was that a ship name was used to trick a bot into performing a CBY macro. So in this case, a script to run macros DID accept input.

RammaR, if you can trick someone into CBYing using smack talk, more power to you! heh As human beings we don't have bugs in the programmatical sense, and any bad info passed out is misdirection, not spoofing. A human could not be tricked into self destructing or hanging by a ship name, planet name, beacon, etc. If they could, then they're stupid enough that you have to wonder how they find their way home at night.

Kav, if you don't spoof or info share, then good for you. I wish more players felt the same way, it would make for cleaner (and probably more enjoyable) games.

umm, a macro is a string of characters. Scripts can send strings of characters, why would a script invite then invoke a macro, instead of just sending the string? If any script writer really writes crap like that, they deserve to get smoked.


quote:Originally posted by Kavanagh
Macros dont accept inputs, not sure where you are coming from.
What happened was that a ship name was used to trick a bot into performing a CBY macro. So in this case, a script to run macros DID accept input.
[/quote]

Perhaps I explained it wrong. The script referred to for this particular incident of CBYage was Oz's stbot. The bot DOES require that players login to the bot to use it, only allows logins from corpmates and only over SS. The problem as I understand it is that these checks do not apply to the player running the bot. The bot automatically assumes that you are cleared to order it around. I won't post specifics because I don't want to see this bug commonly exploited (though Oz is apparently already working on a fix). One of the many functions of the bot is to perform macros on command. Granted this is not a "true" macro, but a sequence of keys that the bot can be ordered to send, it amounts to the same thing though. The bot was spoofed into believing that the player had sent it a "macro" to CBY. Does that clear things up for you?

I just received a phone call. Hold on.........



Mr Horse just called to let me know......

please leave me alone. I'm dead already.......please stop beating me....

hehe

we need a little humor here today

I'm with Vader , ROTFL good one vader

Bah, Vader -- You're just trying to spoof us into being quiet!
hehehe

Argg... Pages and pages of a bunch of senseless bs.... What is happening. Why is tradewars turning all candy @ss? Use this bug, not this bug, wait that isn't a bug, well we can use it. ... Whatever happened to alls fair in love and Tradewar?

I mean come on.... This sounds like someone(s) got outsmarted and their feelings are hurt... lol. suck it up. If the game states dont use this or dont use that then dont.

On an ending note, To the victor goes the spoils , as is history, as is Tradewars.

--LD--

WTF did you come from?
quote:Whatever happened to alls fair in love and Tradewar?
So duping and TWGS bug use are OK to use?
quote:This sounds like someone(s) got outsmarted and their feelings are hurt
Reread the posts if thats what you think. In the specific, an afk fedsafe player got CBYed at SD. In general, its about ethics and the standards by which we play this GAME.
quote:On an ending note, To the victor goes the spoils
Wow, nice cliche.
quote:as is history, as is Tradewars.
As is history, as is Tradewars? So history is a text based telnet game? If you have something relevant to add to this thread, please do. If not, don't waste my time with pointless posts. There is the infamous Loki thread for that.

i <3 nerd fights

Lol... I was kinda thinking your posts were pointless Psion. Its taken you 2 pages of posts to repeat your same OPINION. Guess that would refer back to vaders post about beating a dead horse. As many times as u have posted this same "ethical" gameplay issue you should run for office. Whats ethical about running scripts while u are away from the keys? You arent even playing, its playing itself... come on man...

--LD--

BTW, Good job Jhereg... Woulda loved to see their faces and response after you caused them to cby... lmao...

--LD--

I would like to offer my opinion on this. If you don't like it, tought

quote:
I made a stupid macro mistake the other day and Jhereg #sd'd# me for it. I haven't complained once, it was my mistake and he took advantage of it. But the difference is that spoofing takes advantage not of a mistake the player made but one the scripter did.


So it's not a mistake to run a script with serious security flaws? Personally, I would consider that a pretty darn big mistake.


quote:
quote:Exploiting bugs within the TWGS or TW program is cheating. Script bugs are different from game bugs.
Again, how so? I honestly don't see how it makes a difference where the bug lies. Using a TWGS bug is using a bug. Using a script bug is using a bug.

It is acceptable to spoof a script because that specific script is not inherent to the game. If there is a TWGS bug, regardless of what you do, it can be exploited. If there is a bug in a script, all you have to do is not run it to avoid exploitation.

quote:
quote:Scripts are not an inherent part of the game, they are merely tools. You are not REQUIRED to use them.
Technically true. But when was the last time you played a serious game against competent opponents and didn't use a single script for anything? At least a few scripts are realistically required for competitive play.

Scripts probably are required for competative play. I would like to add a small clause onto that, though. Scripts that are secure from outside abuse are required for competative play. Make no mistake here, a script that can be spoofed is a script that is messed up. It is entirely possible to make a script that can't be spoofed. Failure to do so is just laziness or lack of ability. If you're lazy or lack ability, you should expect others to take advantage of it, not complain that it isn't fair.



quote:
Again, I disagree here. If I were unethical enough to do such a thing, I would be the one to blame, not the unwitting end user.

If you choose to run a script you didn't write, you're stating implicitly that you trust the script author not to have done anything bad to the code. If you trust someone who you shouldn't have, a large portion of the blame rests on you.

quote:
I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my poll question though. Would you like to see spoofing become a common tactic in every game?



I see nothing wrong with that. Personally, I think it would be pretty funny, if only because I've taken a lot of time to make sure my scripts don't have holes in them.


Finally, there is one other point I want to address. It has been said that you shouldn't take advantage of something that a script wasn't meant to do. That is, if a script is meant to do something, don't try to circumvent it. I expect anyone who plays a game against me to concede immediately, as I will be running a script that is meant to beat all of you, and I wouldn't want you to subvert the intentions of my script