Well, I lied. I'm back.

My original post was NOT meant as a flame. My original post was not meant to be "against unlimited turn games."

I used a helper, SWATH. Used TWAR briefly. Hell, I even used TWHelper long long ago.

I'm not against helpers. I'm not even against macros. I'm still undecided against full-on scripts because you can bot the whole Darn game.

What I AM against (and what caused my discontinuence of play) is the prevailing attitudes and "tactics" which can only be accomplished via these scripts (fighter nets mine nets, triggered-instakill-scripts-via-plantary-twarp, etc.)

At some point you stop playing against people and you start running scripts to kill their scripts. That's not Tradewars to me.

I'm not against the stupid griefing tactics - not only am I used to it but I'll admit to doing a little of it myself.

However, the thread was "Is Tradewars dying" and my answer is: yes. I stated various reasons for my opinion and offered, not so subtly, a few ways to help games be less...what's the right word...."newbie unfriendly."

In my cited game...it's basically over. Why? Because people were already running around with 200k figs, 92mil+ priced ships, 40+ planets in the world, all the colonists were gone and people were laying out huge single-toll-fighter nets.

There's no opportunity for anyone to come in and "play." Why is that? Because of some (IMO) poor TEdits and the prevailing mentality of "rush rush rush" coupled with scripts (not just macros.)

So what happens? You've just locked out EVERYONE who wasn't there from the get-go. You now have a game with, max, 10 people in it with no hope of ever growing that game. 10 people may be a success by some measure, but it sucks compared to the old 40 player days.

TWS is dying because of complex scripts coupled with a plethora (excess) of resources and, primarily, because the existing playerbase LIKES it that way.

New players, returning players, casual players, etc are not suited for these games. Thus, you have a cadre of people who're playing and a set who are not. The above players try to find a game, but it's all zerg-rush-script mentality. The other games are dead because, well, everyone's in zerg-rush-script mentality in zerg-rush-script games.

As people eventually burn out, there's no new blood to replace them and, in time, TWS will die. At some point you do have to cater the newer crowd, and not use the griefing tactics or the ultimate grifing tactic is turned back on you: no one will play and you yourself are denied the ability to play.

-Szii

As a quick aside - the unlim game I was in..I had a good chunk of colonists, a nice hidey hole, 4 planets (2 H, 1 Terran, 1 water-based), citidels built and a QC coming up in 1 day. Couple of ships, a small chunk of fighters and mines, yadda yadda. I said I was rusty, not incompetent.

I had a good niche and walked away from it. In fact, I gave it to the dominating group. I, as a solo player, would have been beaten in time. The tri-scripting group that snagged almost all of the colonists would have won eventually. (TWARP colonization of planets x 3 on 250 hold ships = lots of colonists fast.)

In part Szii is correct, it is what many player are looking for. But as I know I mentioned before, what people are bring their corps to play in low turn games? I rarely see more than a few people in a low turn game. If the player base wants a longer running, good enjoyable game, they need to join these games, most of them are posted ahead of time.

Jhereg

Put a lower turn limit on a game and the colos won't go so fast. Put a lower turn limit on a game and people won't have "200k figs, 92mil+ priced ships" any time soon. I don't understand why people would expect a game with UNLIMITED turns to be any different. When there is no limit on the turns, the person that wins is the person who can achieve the most tasks in the shortest amount of time. If there is a turn limit, it comes down to who can achieve the most in the fewest turns.

I agree with Draconis. Low turn games are out there. Learn what boards put em up and watch for em. Lots of great games with good edits out there if you are attentive.

quote:Originally posted by szii
--- Clipped Buncha Crap---


I get the idea your either 14, or suffer from something that doesnt allow you to think..

Harley done told you what your problem is ..

Your like the guy who says "Those Shoes are too expensve, bastard nike" then turn around and pay the clerk for the shoes..

OPS run what players want to play.

OPS generally host Standard Turn, Unlimited, High Turn, and sometimes Verry Low Turn games.

OPS look at what the players play.

You play'd in a UNLIMITED Turn game.

You added +1 to the demand of "UNLIMITED" and gave a -1 to the "TURN LIMITED" Games.

Is TW Going Dead.. Yeh.. Hell yeh.. Duh

Is TW Going Dead cause of people not able to actually think about the games (like you) .. JEAP ..

You used TW-ATS .. Good Golley Ms Molly.. That's like one of the first distributed apps that started this move into data management and scripting.

Scripts Spoil the game eh .. Darn .. Dont look in the mirror..

That's 2 ways you killed this game you love, and -2 ways you helped the game you love..

-=<<Beware Of De0Dokktor>>=-

Wow DW that was deep.

But I really do think he has a good point here its not really the helpers and scripts that are killing tradewars but it is the unlimited games that these new and returning people are getting in to there thinking I can build me a base this game will last a few months and I’ll have fun. When in reality unlimited games are a death mach type of game that was not meant to run longer then a few days.

Yea tradewars is probably dieing. And yea the game is in a lull right now. But I feel that the death of tradewars will be caused by newbie’s playing unlimited games and thinking they are going to have a 3 month long build up only to be pissed off because some guy with a helper won it 2 days after the open. Then they throw a tantrum quitting the game never to return because of something they don’t fully understand. or at least one of the reasons tradewars is dieing

ok, without getting banned this time.
#1.read http://www.tw-cabal.com (you sound like a newb, unlim or otherwise)
#2.play in low turn games
#3.make friends
#4.corp together
#5.start playing competitively
#6.don't play unlims

Slim

I realize this thread is a tad dated, but I don't come here too often anymore and I wanted to get this $.02 out. I know some people don't agree and I'll probably get flamed, but go into it with the realization that this is my opinion and nothing more. If you still feel like flaming me then go right ahead, it's a free country.

Is TW dying? I don't know. Personally though, I can see the trend that TW and the community is seemingly taking, and like some others I don't particularly care for it. Admins pay good money for their product, but players seem to have little to no respect for that at all. *Certain* players (I won't name anyone, you know who you are and so does everyone else) seem to have this mentality that they, in whole, comprise the community, and that the gameops owe them some debt of gratitude for the privilege of playing on their system. Nobody seems to really acknowledge the fact that without gameops paying the reg fees and setting up a free system, "the community" would have little to do save twiddling their collective thumbs.

After a rather unsavory experience trying to put up my TWGS, it's now down and probably for good. I have precious little free time these days because of graduate school, and I'd much rather spend it with people I care about in RL than putting up a server for people that in all likelihood would probably just end up accusing me of cheating or complaining about the configuration of the games on my server instead of appreciating that I put the time, effort and money into establishing a free server in the first place. [V]

I have to wonder out loud about how many times the average player these days has complained about or criticized a game server (or admin thereof) out there, and then how many times that same person has ever thanked the admin of a system he plays on for making it available.

Something for certain people to think about. [B)]

Tradewars dieing of course, what doesn't die prolly should. But will it die in the next 10 years, prolly not. For every 100 newbies that come in prolly 1-5 stay to learn the game. Competitiveness will go down unless servers go down and more respectable edits for different user types, Unlimited turn games are about speed, speed, and speed, how do you get speed, macro string, how do you do that? Script very very fast. Unlims aren't killing the game, the inassability of info on how to get better is. It's there but it's not super easy to find. People want instant gratification now a days. It's sad but the instant gratification younger players turn them away from games they have to invest time in and when they invest time can't invest as much time as they want so they get bored of waiting and move on. You'll get a bunch of hardcore gamers playing tradewars in 10 years or so before it dies off completely but there are younger gamers, such as myself interested in games that incorporate time as an resource just like in economics. Time and Money, very much like real life. You'll get an interseted few young group of players every year but it will eventually die, just like everything else.

I made a post about this very topic on my website http://www.thestardock.com today...

Is Tradewars Dying?
An archived article from the past, originally posted by tradewars.org, back in 04-21-1998!
http://www.thestardock.com/content.cgi?id=102

This is nothing more than history repeating itself.

Is TW dying? Heck, I didn't know it was even still alive (until about 15 minutes ago)! About 10 years ago I left TW (for what I thought would be a short amount of time) and buried my nose in another text-based game called Major MUD (medieval setting). While the two games are completely different, they do have one thing in common. The game has been "ruined" for many by scripting. Character progression no longer takes much physical work, if any. All the monotonous tasks are handled by scripts, so all that people have to do is tell their computer how to play the game for them. It's taken a lot of the fun out of the game for me, because people no longer need to know how to walk certain places by hand, they tell the computer where they want to go and, unless they die, they are there in 5-10 mins. That's why I started doing a little research on TradeWars. I remember years ago, staring at my screen late at night, waiting for an invasion I had gotten word of. I remember everytime I fought someone, my hands would shake from the adrenaline rush I was getting. The thought that weeks or even months of work were at stake was what provided the excitement. I remember writing my own scripts and then watching TWHelper become the norm, which is around the time I quit.

It's sad to see this problem plaguing text-based games. I guess you have to look at it from both perspectives though. While it has ruined the games for some, it has opened the door for others who don't have the time required to stay competitive in a game. It's unfortunate for the die-hards who know the game like the back of their hand, but it's probably the only thing keeping newcomers interested.

Anyway, it's good to see there's people still playing text-based games. I believe them to be just as enjoyable as the graphical MMORPGs out there. Who knows, maybe someday I'll join a TW game just for the heck of it. Come to think of it, I'd better not, I waste enough time playing the other game.

Ill have my server up soon, as far as im concerned, im going to steal ALL your players, just a friendly warning[:D]

quote:Originally posted by gatewaysysop

I realize this thread is a tad dated, but I don't come here too often anymore and I wanted to get this $.02 out. I know some people don't agree and I'll probably get flamed, but go into it with the realization that this is my opinion and nothing more. If you still feel like flaming me then go right ahead, it's a free country.

Is TW dying? I don't know. Personally though, I can see the trend that TW and the community is seemingly taking, and like some others I don't particularly care for it. Admins pay good money for their product, but players seem to have little to no respect for that at all. *Certain* players (I won't name anyone, you know who you are and so does everyone else) seem to have this mentality that they, in whole, comprise the community, and that the gameops owe them some debt of gratitude for the privilege of playing on their system. Nobody seems to really acknowledge the fact that without gameops paying the reg fees and setting up a free system, "the community" would have little to do save twiddling their collective thumbs.

After a rather unsavory experience trying to put up my TWGS, it's now down and probably for good. I have precious little free time these days because of graduate school, and I'd much rather spend it with people I care about in RL than putting up a server for people that in all likelihood would probably just end up accusing me of cheating or complaining about the configuration of the games on my server instead of appreciating that I put the time, effort and money into establishing a free server in the first place.

I have to wonder out loud about how many times the average player these days has complained about or criticized a game server (or admin thereof) out there, and then how many times that same person has ever thanked the admin of a system he plays on for making it available.

Something for certain people to think about.


So far the players on my server have been very appreciative in the fact I offer them a good place to play the game. And they let me know about it, and if there are any bugs that they find, they let me know about it but don't complain about it. In all the server and the players will do well if there is some good communication between the players and the Sysop, I try to maintain a good relatioinship with my players, and also ask them what they would like to play, and listen to their input. and bang games accordingly, Right now I will be ganging some more new games for my server. and replacing some of the older games with something different. Some at the request of the players and some by my own. As for Trade Wars dying, history repeats itself, it will die out for a while and reemerge strong for a while then lull again, and so forth. As to when it will actually die out completely, who knows? I have been gone from the game for a long time and have returned. Eventhough some of the playing styles and mind set have changed, and I have to relearn my way of thinking of playing the game again, I will not give up on the game I Love so easily. And I feel there are others out there who feel the same.

As for Godzilla, Hope you can share players. [:P] Since I have opened my server for business I have had a good following of players. You should do well as long as you keep on top of things, sometimes it is rough for me with me going to college and working too. But it is a labor of love for me.

Vulcan

TW has been dying for what??? since 89 when i first started playing... everyone says text based games are dying...fact is..no they arent...they will always be here, there will always be servers to play on...and there will always be people looking to play....example?

checkers, in its day you die if you lose...lol major event hell there are still tourneys and get togethers, how old is that game? fact is...you dont like the way it goes then find a differant server, find a differant ggroup to play with, find differant edits...my server i have a bit for all...unlims low turns 5k turns, pretty much whatever your looking for...i have a group of people thats played my no edit game forever, they log on do what they have to go...chat and do whatever...unlims well thats a differant crowd..they want edits, something differant.

the point im trying to make is find your cup of tea, trade wars will always be here..find you edits...find your game