Ok, there has been a lot of contravercy surrounding my posts since I came back to these forums. I originally left them years ago for the same reason. So evidently the problem lies with me.

Rick Mead has been saying it all along.

I simply don't take the time to get all my facts straight, and while my points are usually valid, because I don't slow down and get it all right, so that I can explain my point, I end up sounding like an idiot!

I further compound things by being combative and impatient when people don't understand my poorly written arguments.

I apologize.

I am going to endeavor to not do this in the future. I think I'll ask more questions first, and make sure I've got it all straight.

I would like to especially apologize for the contravercy over offensive fighters. The problem there was two fold.

1. I've never understood how they work, they seemed odd to me.

2. I didn't take the time to scrutinize and clearly grasp the formula that was presented to me on how offensive fighters work.

Offensive fighters launch 1.25 times the fighters and shields that a ship is carrying!

I get that now

Ok, now I'm on a train of thought and maybe you gurus can help me work it out.

An ISS enters the sector. The original ISS (stock) carried 50,000 figs and 2000 shields at a defensive odds of 1.5 to 1.

The offensive fighters detect that an ISS has entered the sector. Do the offensive fighters actually LOOK at the ship, and detect how many fighters and shields it's carrying? Do the offensive fighters look at the ship odds? OR, does it just launch a wave at whatever ship that enters and stop at 1.25 times the ships compliment?

I believe that is how it works, if I'm wrong please explain it further. For now I'm going on that assumption.

I believe that the 1.25 figure in the formula was arrived at because the strongest ship in the universe (the ISS) had 1.5 to one odds!
(of course the battleship hat 1.6 but it only carried 10k figs and the marauder had 2.0 but only carried 250 fighters).

Since then, ships have been edited to carry 400,000 fighters and 16,000 shields and carry a defensive capability of 8 to 1.

I honestly don't think that those who created the attack formula of the offensive fighters ever envisioned such a thing.

Whew, now I got my point across.

If I am wrong about anything I've said here do not be afraid to correct me and I promise I will listen and not come out banging.

One thing you all have to understand about me, however, is this:

If I come out and say "well if that's true than why does this happen or that happen" I'm not challenging what you said, I'm simply trying to understand how what you said applies to my personal experience, so that I can UTILIZE what you said in the game.

Ok, enough of this "book." I know I'm gonna rile some people on this again, I just know it, but I honestly did not intend to do that at all.

They will attack at 1.25 X the ships MAX compliment...it doesn't matter what is actually on the ship.

Now given the fighters WEAK offensive capability that may or may not be enough to actually destroy your ship. THAT depends on how WEAK your ships defensive odds are and how much protection you actually have.

heh...i said protection...

hehe sgo, u still dont got it.
here it is for you, maybe i can break it down better

sector 123 has 1million offensive fighters
your ship has 2.0 odds (defensive)
your ship can have a MAX of 10k figs and 10k shields
you have 10k figs and no shields
you warp into sector 123
you are dead. why? because offensive fighters attack at 1.25 your MAX compliment. it doesnt look at what you have, just what kind of ship and how much it CAN hold. it assumes you have 1.0 odds so it goes over the top with 1.25 the amount of figs that it would take to #SD# you at 1.0 def odds.
you had 10k figs at 2.0 def odds. so you can take 20k damage
the offensive figs see that you can hold 10k figs and 10k shields so it attacks with (10k + 10k)x1.25=25k fighters
25k > 10k figs at 2.0 def odds (20k) so you get podded
if you warp in with:
SAME ship
SAME def odds
10k figs
2501 shields
you live
(10k + 2501)x2.0=25002
25002 >25k damage the figs will do to THAT ship

capeesh?
i think that should be simple to follow no personal attacks just help

Slim

(yes there is the little random variable that if you go in with 10k figs and 2501 shields you might still get popped, but as i dont know how to implement the random formula into this equation (nor do i care to) i will ignore it and keep it simple to understand.)
if anyone (IE:EIS) wishes to continue and maybe shed light on the actual random variable in there (heh, doubt it, not sure many know or care, and probably dont want to get back into talking about offensive figs)
i just thought i would post this as i left it out at first, but figured SOMEONE would feel the need to point out that YES according to the ACTUAL 100% formula, if you go in with ...2501 shields you can still die. i just wanted to keep it simple and understandable.

Slim

quote:Originally posted by PHX

They will attack at 1.25 X the ships MAX compliment...it doesn't matter what is actually on the ship.

Now given the fighters WEAK offensive capability that may or may not be enough to actually destroy your ship. THAT depends on how WEAK your ships defensive odds are and how much protection you actually have.

heh...i said protection...



Ok, I'm not trying to be combative on this really I'm not, but are sure the offensive fighters know how many fighters and shields your ship can hold and attack accordingly? Because it "seems" like that would require a degree of artificial intelligence, whereby it goes to the ship's stats as listed in the game dat as you enter and determines how many fighters and shields your ship should be carrying at max!

Now, here's the million dollar questions.

If it works that way, and it can look at the ship stats? Why have the offensive fighters use a preset formula of 1.25, and why have them assume you have 1:1 odds? Why doesn't it also look at the ship odds while it's looking at the max amount of figs and shields, and calculate that into the equation when it's attacking? That's what a player does isn't it, when they are attacking you?

because they are just sector fighters not ship fighters they are stupid they now what your max compliment is because it is made at beggining of game..now if you edited it in middle of game i guess you could see if it checks just at beggingin or each time

Slim

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

because they are just sector fighters not ship fighters they are stupid they now what your max compliment is because it is made at beggining of game..now if you edited it in middle of game i guess you could see if it checks just at beggingin or each time

Slim


Well, see slim, that doesn't quite explain it, but that's cool. I'd like to quote Harley Nuss here a bit. He said the offensive fighters attack according to how many max shields and fighters you are "carrying" not how many you can carry.

quote:Originally Posted By Harley Nuss In "Offensive Fighters Gone Amock"
I don't recall offensive figs attacking at .8:1 odds, but I've only played on TWGS versions since .39. Prior to .55, they would attack with 1.25 * current figs. It very well could have been different before that, too.

Here's another quote where Harley states the defensive odds of the ship DO matter:

quote:Originally posted by Harely Nuss in "Beware of cheating systems"
Were the defensive odds 1.8:1? It's the defensive odds that matter. Even in older versions of twgs, before the change in offensive fig behavior, you would survive that. Of course, this assumes that the ship held 400k figs and 12k shields and that you actually HAD 400k figs and 12k shields on it. If you entered a sector with just offensive fighters under these conditions, you would survive. If you didn't, then one of the above conditions was not met.

I can't seem to nail this down because I'm getting conflicting information. Others have quoted the Cabal formula as saying the fighters attack at 1.25* the MAX a ship can HOLD (figs+shields), yet others have suggested that the defensive odds of the ship come into play as to whether the ship should survive.

No wonder I'm confused

I believe that it's possible the figs do attack with 1.25* the max capability of figs and shields. The explanation "well sector figs are stupid," really doesn't explain it. Especially since the docs themselves say that offensive fighters attack according to what your ship is CARRYING not according to what it CAN carry.

quote:From the game Docs
<F> Take or Leave Fighters. This enables you to deploy your
fighters. You will have several options so you can
customize your defenses. You can leave fighters as
either Personal so they recognize only you as an ally or
you can leave them as Corporate so any member of your
corporation will be treated with respect. Fighters can
be Offensive, Defensive or Toll. Defensive fighters
defend your territory. They bar opponents from entering
a sector and will fight when attacked. Offensive
fighters will send out an attack group on any poor soul
who happens into their sector. The size of the attack
group depends on the fighter support escorting the
intruder. After the initial attack, offensive fighters
fall back to defend their territory. Toll fighters
simply stop the casual passers-by and ask them for money
to help with your cause. The number of Toll Fighters
deployed will determine the amount of the toll charged.
Toll fighters, as all other fighters, will fight back if
attacked.

Orion Blastar posted that "all a ship needs is greater than 1.25 odds to survive,"

quote:Originally posted by Orion Blastar in "Beware of cheating systems"
His statement that he had a 1.8 odds ship that was destroyed by off sector figs is flawed logic based on what we know about the game now. MBBS cannot change the behavior of off sector figs. So they behave the same in a MBBS or Non-MBBS game. If the ship has 1.3 or over def odds, it will survive the off sector figs by themselves. If he claimed to have set up a game where a 1.8 def odds ship did not survive the off sector figs, then that is a fallacy. The only capture he did show was showing Baltar and company getting blasted by qcannon blasts, not off sector figs. Therefore we can safely say that it was not the off sector figs that did in the players and anyone in a 1.3 def odds or above ship can survive the off sector figs by themselves.



Of course we know that a ship needs more than greater than 1.3 def odds to survive offensive fighters, otherwise it could enter the sector with zero figs and shields and survive

So, I guess it all comes down to how we word things, really.

Yet the question remains, if a ship's defensive odds have nothing to do with it, why was such an issue made of the defensive odds my ship was carrying when I entered a sector that had offensive fighters on it?

The bottom line, here Slim, I guess, is that I'm baffled by using a preset 1.25* (max defenses) preset formula at 1:1 odds if the offensive fighters are capable of "looking" at the ship and what it is capable of carrying.

sigh. SGO it is what it is, which is as we explained it. There is no AI involved...just simple math. Yes the fighters probably see a ship, find out what kind it is and do the math. This is called programming.

If your defensive odds are high enough (over 1.25) you will most likely still survive the attack. Because by default all sector fighters only get 1.0 offensive capability.

If I have 10 apples and slim takes 2 apples how many figs does it take to pod SGO ?

sigh. You're not really understanding the quotes I gave. Part of it is I tried to give too much information at once. Prior to tw 3.11.55, offensive fighters attacked with 1.25 * current shields + figs. However, in 3.11.55, this was changed. That means in 3.11.55 and later versions, offensive fighters will attack with 1.25 * max shields + figs. When a ship enters, the dat files are queried, it finds out the max fig + shields of the ship that enters, multiplies it by 1.25, then sends that many figs. They attack at 1:1 odds. From the offensive figs standpoint, that is it. If a ship with .5:1 odds that carries 500 figs and 500 shields max enters, the offensive figs will attack with 1250 figs. If a ship with 8:1 odds that carries 500 figs and 500 shields max enters, the offensive figs will attack with 1250 figs. If a ship with 3:1 odds, that carries 500 figs and 500 shields max enters and it currently only has 5 figs and 10 shields, the offensive figs will attack with 1250 figs. They're fired like someone in a 1:1 odd ship firing 1250 figs at you. If it only takes 200 to kill the ship, the rest remain. If the 1250 doesn't destroy the ship, no more attack. That's all there is to how the offensive figs themselves act.

Now, there is more to whether or not your survive. Note, this is NOT offensive fig behavior, but math that determines if you can survive the figs being sent at you. This is where defensive odds come into play. Lets say you're in a maxed ship with 1.2:1 defensive odds, it holds 500 figs and 500 shields. As you saw before, if your ship holds 500 figs and 500 shields, there will be 1250 figs fired at you. You have 1000 defenders (500 shields + 500 figs) * 1.2 odds = 1200 defense rating. 1250 figs * 1.0 odds = 1250 attack rating. The attack rating is 50 more than your defense rating, so you will be podded. Lets take the exact same scenario and increase your odds to 1.3:1. Lets say you're in a maxed ship with 1.3:1 defensive odds, it holds 500 figs and 500 shields. As you saw before, if your ship holds 500 figs and 500 shields, there will be 1250 figs fired at you. You have 1000 defenders (500 shields + 500 figs) * 1.3 odds = 1300 defense rating. 1250 figs * 1.0 odds = 1250 attack rating. The attack rating is 50 less than your defense rating, so you will not be podded.

Does this make sense?

Harley I understand it PERFECTLY now. Thank you. So I guess 50 million offensive fighters is serious overkill and a waste of resources, except to keep mothers out.

Why the original programmers chose to do it this way (the 1.25 instead of having the figs check the dat files for the entering ship odds) is, well, as was said, it is what is is, but you still have to wonder what they were thinking. (Unless of course, I'm right and they went with the 1.25 odds because at the time ship defensive odds were not programmable and editable by the sysop and they were written in stone, so why not use a number that is written in stone?)

Shrug, who knows.

I am going to sit here and MEMORIZE that explanation Harley so that it gets ingrained into this big thick cranium of mine and we never have this problem again

Tw55.. you brought tears to my eyes
sgo, i said what kemp said he just repeated himself 3 times while i repeated myself only twice.. i think we found out another mathmatical formula today heh.
and when i refered to sector figs as "Stupid" i meant they are not AI, they can not change, that is how they are programmed. its like being able to change what you can do on the stardock, you can't.

Slim

Well I get things wrong too, so don't worry about it.

I should have said a ship with max figs and shields with 1.3 defensive odds or better will survive. My mistake, I apparently either forgot to say that, or didn't understand it myself at the time. I apologize for that.

Max figs you ship can hold are what the offensive sector figs used to figure out how much to send to your ship. I guess I figured you already understood that, but apparently you did not. I apologize for that too. It was not a math problem, but a reading comprehension problem in this case. Don't worry, I suffer from that too due to my many illnesses that I cannot count on one hand, but two. Hence my disability status.

quote:Originally posted by Tradewarrior55

If I have 10 apples and slim takes 2 apples how many figs does it take to pod SGO ?


If SGO does not have enough figs and/or shields, 1.25 times the max capacity figs his ship can hold, minus the figs and shields he has times the defensive odds of his ship. In other words, SGO pods himself on offensive figs if he does not have enough figs and/or shields on his ship.

In an ISS with 1.5 Odds, and 50,000 max figs, and 2000 max shields, and SGO has 10,000 figs and 2000 shields. 62500 figs attack, 18000 figs plus or minus a random factor, take out SGO's ship, leaving 44500 plus or minus a random factor left over as overkill. If SGO had 40,000 figs and 2000 shields, or more, he might have survived. Did I do it right, professor?

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar
In other words, SGO pods himself on offensive figs if he does not have enough figs and/or shields on his ship.


Actually, heh, my "complaint" as it were, or why I started this, was because I wasn't getting podded by 50 million figs (or because someone else didn't get podded either way). It was not because I was getting podded, I know better (instintively) to not enter a sector with a lot of offensive figs deployed without getting the strongest ship in the game and fully loading it, and while I'm at it I bring a photon with me

I just know that offensive fighters in a sector over which sits 5 to 7 shielded planets, shooting ore into the sector has always podded me.

In the scenario that brought all this up I had planets in a sector set to kill the ship all by themselves without offensive figs, then I put offensive figs there in case they were fool enough to try again.

Not only did they take the sector, they didn't even get podded.

Later I figured that as long as it's possible my corp partners somehow reset the canons when I wasn't looking, and dropped it.

The offensive fig "argument" came as a spawn of that earlier situation.