quote:1. First we bombed the #$@% out of impoverished Afganistan to get Osama Bin Laden (incidentally the same Bin Laden who's family was flown out of the USA on 9/13/2001 by none other than the Bush administration on a commercial flight w/out ANY questioning about their relative). Hey, anyone know where Osama is?? Anyone care? As for Afganistan, who cares about it now? Now girls are free to go to school in Afganistan. Well, if there WERE any schools.

Sigh...the dangers of michael moore are made evident by idiotic posts like this. YOU SHOULD NEVER BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT THE LIBERAL MEDIA OR LIBERAL HOLLYWOOD DIRECTORS TELL YOU. Geez i get tired of telling people that. First of all we bombed afghanistan to get rid of the terrorists there and to install a democracy. I know mr moore would have you believe otherwise, but that has mostly occurred. It is a better place with an economy that is beginning to thrive and there are not quite as many terrorists running around there anymore. Secondly the bin laden family was flown out of the US by richard clarke. Do you remember him? He was the one who was bashing Bush about not doing enough to fight terrorists. Is it coming back? Bush had nothing to do with them leaving the country. You should really do a cursory fact check before posting such lunacy. There are more schools there now than there were before the war. Beyond that do you think that the people in general are in better or worse shape in Afghanistan. Stop listening to the big fat lying white man and come up with something original.


As for iraq, wait and see what comes of it all. In the long run we will find out what happened to the wmds. We already know he was a danger. If you dispute that you are an idiot. I know that people dont want to hear the truth, but here it is. The UN voted against the war because they were all being given BILLIONS of dollars in oil for food bribe money. I know the french and russians and germans and what they think is of vast importance to liberals but i personally dont care. They were profiting off of saddam and therefore were in no hurry to remove him from power. Isnt it funny to you guys that for YEARS he violated one resolution after another and even though their OWN intelligence agencies said he was a threat they were in no hurry to do anything about it. The media doesnt report much on things like the illegal selling of weapons and oil for food because it might open your eyes to the credibility problems of places like france and germany and therefore make you less likely to take their side over Americas.

Sorry slim, but we still ahead here.

lol. i will even add a post for ya

quote: I know mr moore would have you believe otherwise, but that has mostly occurred. It is a better place with an economy that is beginning to thrive and there are not quite as many terrorists running around there anymore.

"thrive" is a bit strong. We never had a particularly strong presence there, and currently the only reasonably lawful zone is around Kabul. The mountainous areas are mostly anarchic, and the crosspath migration of terrorists has heavily destabilized both sides of the Pakistani border.

Granted, I personally think Afghanistan is in better shape now than before the war. However, the regime currently in power could not survive without our / NATO backing, and whatever semblance of democracy we've installed has yet to stand the test of time (or the first free elections for that matter).

quote: The UN voted against the war because they were all being given BILLIONS of dollars in oil for food bribe money.

That's like saying we invaded Iraq to steal their oil
both statements are slightly truthful but mostly stupid


quote: We already know he was a danger. If you dispute that you are an idiot.

4 independent investigations (in chronological order : Israel (Parliamentary investigation of Mossad), USA (Senate 9/11 Commission), UK (Butler Review), Australia (Parliamentary report)) have concluded that the Iraq threat was vastly overstated, and that other threats have been overlooked. But what do they know.

quote: The media doesnt report much on things like the illegal selling of weapons and oil for food because it might open your eyes to the credibility problems of places like france and germany and therefore make you less likely to take their side over Americas.

I dont see where LAgirl said anything about taking anyone's "side". She referred to germany only when talking about hitler, and didnt mention france at all. Maybe you should stop cut n pasting a standard response whenever anyone brings up Iraq

hilarious...sup slim??

Well, I will now take a moment to add my little bit to this thread.

Frankly, I disagree with almost everything that is said here. I am an Independent and I've found many times in the past where my views don't mesh with anyone thoughts. Pieces, but never the whole thing.

Well, I guess saying that I disagree is too strong. I disagree with how most of the things said here were said and the underlying feelings put into the comments. For example:

I fully supported Bush when he was originally brought into office. I did NOT want to see Gore get into office. Not only did he have a habit of sticking his foot and everyone else's feet down his own throat, but shudder to think where we would be right now if the Censorship queen herself had gotten into office. (Those that are wondering what I mean, Tipper Gore has been heavy in the Censorship movements and has been a major player in a large amount of the major censorship bills to hit the government desks for voting over the last ten years. It terrifies me to think what she could have down with the clout of being First Lady.) Add to that the fact I don't think that he would have been able to adequately handle 9/11. I just don't think he could have.

However, even though that was the case then, it certainly isn't the case now. Bush is so 'Consistent' and 'Steadfast' that he refuses to take into consideration changing political climates. Not to mention the fact that every country out there with exception of Great Britain has one level or another of distaste with the US Government because of how things are being handled. And like it or not, anyone who bullies enough people will eventually get overwhelmed. It’s a statistical fact. Bullies eventually get taken down. Not to mention the fact that the major reasons I will NOT be voting for Bush this coming election has nothing to do with any of the wars or foreign military policy. Absolutely nothing. No, the reason I will be working hard to get Bush out of office is because, while I feel he was the right man to have in office at the time, he's reached the limit of what he can productively do. He -can't- fixed the Economy. He just doesn't know how to do it. Things are only getting worse. I want to see things locally getting fixed. I don't even see that in Bush's plans that he has been spouting. He is just focusing on staying the course in the Middle East. What good does that do if the Country falls apart do to internal negligence?

This brings me to the final spot. Do I think Kerry is the answer then? Do I feel that he will solve all our concerns? Absolutely not. I wouldn't even have those words leave my mouth. HOWEVER! I do think he is at least a step in the right direction. Trying to get us on better terms with the world. (Yes, this is important. Like it or not, if we piss off enough countries, there are enough of them to cause us some serious problems) and he's focusing a great deal on the internal status of things. And that’s what I want to hear. Those are serious problems that, if they don't get resolved, will cause our eventual end. Who needs to worry about Terrorism if there isn't a country anymore because we can't afford to feed our population and they all die off? [:D]

In the end, we will all vote who we think is best. I just hope people take a moment to stand back and decide which is more important to them. There is a lot more at stake that personal grudges and insults.

PS: In case anyone was confused. The US isn't a Democracy. They call it that, but in truth it’s a Capitalistic Republic. Look at the government structure and then actually read the definitions of a Republic and a Democracy. It’s just an amusing side note. [:)]

Sigh...I love it when people base their conclusions on what the media would like for you to believe.

Economy
Bush inherited a recession and in turn passed tax cuts to ME, the MIDDLE CLASS. The recession turns out to be one of the LIGHTEST recessions in history. Since the recession has been over the economy has been growing at a rapid pace. I know the NYTimes would have you believe otherwise, but it is doing well. There are bumps in the road no doubt, but it is now moving in the right direction. What people like you dont understand is that there has never been an event with the economic impact of 911. It takes time to overcome that. I would say the economic reports that have been hitting are very positive in almost all aspects. You are gonna cast a vote for a man who has no plan to fix anything. I want you to tell me his plan for the economy. Please enlighten us how he plans to fix it this week. Tax and Spend doesnt fix anything. I hate to disappoint you. Kerry is the MOST liberal candidate we have ever had. He has no plans to fix anything other than taxing you into oblivion in order to buy votes from the poor. By the way, what did you do with your income tax rebate?? I took a vacation with mine.

TERRORISM/WORLD VIEW
How can anyone in the US sit here and say that we should let France dictate what we do. Do you realize that France has the highest Muslim population of any European country? Who are we having problems with right now? I personally dont care a bit about what France thinks. The reason they are so steadfast in their opposition to Iraq is because THEY want a President who will make concessions to what THEY desire. It has nothing to do with whether or not they feel like the war is right or wrong. They simply dont think Bush cares about what they think. The support of ANY country who doesnt recognize EVIL (saddam or Hitler) and be willing to confront it is of little matter to me. I shudder to think of the good that bowing to the UN will do us or the people of Iraq. Those that were massacred in Sudan and Rwanda would have given anything to have a US led coalition rather than a UN led one.

I do agree that people should step back and take a long look at the issues. I hope you guys watch the debates and see how far out of the mainstream Kerry is. I understand that Bush is not perfect (spends far too much money in order to try to win votes) but to elect someone like Kerry will be disastrous.

BTW, only FOUR senators voted FOR the war in Iraq and then voted AGAINST funding for our troops...i will give you one guess who TWO of them were.

quote:Economy
Bush inherited a recession and in turn passed tax cuts to ME, the MIDDLE CLASS. The recession turns out to be one of the LIGHTEST recessions in history. Since the recession has been over the economy has been growing at a rapid pace.

First of all it should be pointed out his tax cuts have nothing to do with fiscal sense, and everything to do with harnessing votes. He was campaigning on the 'bigger-than-thou tax cuts' platform. Never mind that at the time tax cuts weren't necessary as the economy hadn't slumped : they were "necessary because of the surplus". Then once the economy started to slump, they were "necessary because of the recession". Fair enough : tax cuts during a recession are more often than not a good idea. However, he would like (and has tried) to make his tax cuts permanent. This is only dooable if he is willing to significantly cut government spending - which he has so far refused to do. Congress has just been petitioned for the 3rd time since 2000 to raise the debt ceiling. Bush's economic policy is not poised to reverse this trend, only enhance it.

quote: What people like you dont understand is that there has never been an event with the economic impact of 911.

I think 10/29, 1929 still outranks 9/11, 2001 purely in terms of economic impact both here and abroad. Don't you teach history?

quote: I would say the economic reports that have been hitting are very positive in almost all aspects.

Record deficit : not very positive
Rising inflation : not very positive
Balance of Payments deficit increasing : not very positive
Interest rates being forced to rise (after being artifically sunk for 3 years) : not very positive
Less than 1/4 of projected new jobs added this last month : positive, but also negative

The bottom line here is that you can't gauge the financial policies of the current administration based on short term returns. That tax cuts + increase in government spending helped boost the economy is not revolutionary, on the contrary it was to be expected.

The future is always uncertain, and if the terrorist threat was nonexistant I would say the long term is looking rather promising (provided Bush got some fiscal sense). The medium term is the one that's going to be bumpy - regardless who gets elected this November. Interest rates have been at record lows for the past 3 years, and they are being forced to rise (which will negatively affect growth). The rising deficit is also bad news for confidence in the dollar, which is essential to the American economy as we know it.

quote:You are gonna cast a vote for a man who has no plan to fix anything. I want you to tell me his plan for the economy. Please enlighten us how he plans to fix it this week. Tax and Spend doesnt fix anything.

If Kerry gets elected, we can expect his top-quartile-tax-rollbacks to go through - however with a Republican dominated house we can also expect some/many of his expenditures to get blocked. Conservatives will never act more conservative than when a Liberal is in the White House. In other words, Kerry is offering a better chance at fiscal responsibility than Bush.

quote: He has no plans to fix anything other than taxing you into oblivion in order to buy votes from the poor.

How melodramatic. He only plans to roll back the Bush tax cuts that affect top of top quartile earners. Hardly 'oblivion', and hardly affecting everyone.

quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector

Sigh...I love it when people base their conclusions on what the media would like for you to believe.

Economy
Bush inherited a recession and in turn passed tax cuts to ME, the MIDDLE CLASS. The recession turns out to be one of the LIGHTEST recessions in history. Since the recession has been over the economy has been growing at a rapid pace. I know the NYTimes would have you believe otherwise, but it is doing well. There are bumps in the road no doubt, but it is now moving in the right direction. What people like you dont understand is that there has never been an event with the economic impact of 911. It takes time to overcome that. I would say the economic reports that have been hitting are very positive in almost all aspects. You are gonna cast a vote for a man who has no plan to fix anything. I want you to tell me his plan for the economy. Please enlighten us how he plans to fix it this week. Tax and Spend doesnt fix anything. I hate to disappoint you. Kerry is the MOST liberal candidate we have ever had. He has no plans to fix anything other than taxing you into oblivion in order to buy votes from the poor. By the way, what did you do with your income tax rebate?? I took a vacation with mine.

TERRORISM/WORLD VIEW
How can anyone in the US sit here and say that we should let France dictate what we do. Do you realize that France has the highest Muslim population of any European country? Who are we having problems with right now? I personally dont care a bit about what France thinks. The reason they are so steadfast in their opposition to Iraq is because THEY want a President who will make concessions to what THEY desire. It has nothing to do with whether or not they feel like the war is right or wrong. They simply dont think Bush cares about what they think. The support of ANY country who doesnt recognize EVIL (saddam or Hitler) and be willing to confront it is of little matter to me. I shudder to think of the good that bowing to the UN will do us or the people of Iraq. Those that were massacred in Sudan and Rwanda would have given anything to have a US led coalition rather than a UN led one.

I do agree that people should step back and take a long look at the issues. I hope you guys watch the debates and see how far out of the mainstream Kerry is. I understand that Bush is not perfect (spends far too much money in order to try to win votes) but to elect someone like Kerry will be disastrous.

BTW, only FOUR senators voted FOR the war in Iraq and then voted AGAINST funding for our troops...i will give you one guess who TWO of them were.


Personally I find it terriby amusing that you spout a lot of 'You are so brainwashed you only listen to what the 'Liberal Media' tells you' comments. Frankly you have no idea where I get my information, nor do you really know my views on things outside of what I've spoken so far. And seeing as I've made one post, in the middle of the night while half asleep, its probably a sound thought that its not a complete picture, Wouldn't you agree?

What I'm saying is this, Do I think that Kerry is the answer to the problem? Absolutely not. Which I stated before, but in your hurry to 'Smack down the Liberal Machine' (Which is ironic as I'm not a part of it seeing as I'm a registered Independant who often has views that fall on both sides of the coin.) However, while I don't think that Kerry isthe answer, he is at least expressing the views I want to hear. It is saying the things that sound right to me. Will he follow through? Who knows?! You never know until they get into office. Regardless to if it is Bush or Kerry. But at least Kerry is saying the things I want to see done. Bush hasn't even tried to do that. He definately was good at what he did. Sticking to his guns and following through. But he has also managed to get almost the entire world pissed at us in the process. And he can't account for changing situations. Its just not in his nature. Thats the problem as I see it. And that is why its time to change. Even if Kerry isn't the final solution. He is at least taking the time to look at things and express the concerns people have been having.

And yea, yea. Liberal media. Whatever.

The simple fact is that there is a lot of information out there and a lot of events going on. Maybe Bush could do something good, but I doubt it.

http://www.swiftvets.com/

I found the short ad on this website, created by some of the Veterans who served with John Kerry to be startling, if true. Of course, these are predominantly Republican Partisan Politicians, so, you have to take what they say with a grain of salt.

quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector
However, I think our system of government is in very good working order. Half the people in the country that care to vote will not be happy about this election. I very seriously doubt if any of those law abiding citizens who vote for the losing candidate are gonna fall under extra scrutiny. I know that it will be a sad day for you when you realize that the government doesnt care about what you do or say, unless you have illegal intentions, and you were wrong about things. However, unfortunately for you, that day is coming.


It will be a very sad day indeed for people like you when you finally get around to questioning what your Government is doing, and find out it's far too late to do anything about it!

As far as us "getting along" just fine all these years. These statements show me the extent to which you have been brainwashed by the Conservative "machine." This Government has been corrupt for years and years. Here's just a small example.

The United States decided to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki a very long time AFTER Japan had expressed a desire to surrender. This is documented historical fact! Why would the Government lie to the American People and say that the bombs were necessary to bring a "quick end" to the war? Simple. The Government saw a chance to send a powerful message to the USSR! That is why the bombs were dropped!


http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/himalia2.htm

Bone, the Government has been lying to you since the day you were born. Carter went on Television and told everyone that the "gas shortages" were due to the "immediate depletion" of the world's oil supply! Yes, Bone, Carter was a Democrat, but if you think Reagan and Bush Senior were any less liars, you are just plain gullible and your head is in the sand.

Perhaps this is a good time to put in my three and a half cents.

PEROUTKA for President.

Who you ask? well unless you're a political diehard, most likley you haven't even thought of a third party, BUT we do have better options. Vote Constitution party in November. http://constitutionparty.com/

Once again, Ty I must confess economics is not the strongest part of my brain but let me see if i can be simple for you...

Dems equal TAX AND SPEND...it is inbred in them. They want to take money from the rich and give to the poor in order to buy votes. Agreed?

Republicans equal more of my hard earned money in my pocket. Agreed?

Now let me pick apart your argument once again.

quote:
First of all it should be pointed out his tax cuts have nothing to do with fiscal sense, and everything to do with harnessing votes. He was campaigning on the 'bigger-than-thou tax cuts' platform. Never mind that at the time tax cuts weren't necessary as the economy hadn't slumped : they were "necessary because of the surplus". Then once the economy started to slump, they were "necessary because of the recession". Fair enough : tax cuts during a recession are more often than not a good idea. However, he would like (and has tried) to make his tax cuts permanent. This is only dooable if he is willing to significantly cut government spending - which he has so far refused to do. Congress has just been petitioned for the 3rd time since 2000 to raise the debt ceiling. Bush's economic policy is not poised to reverse this trend, only enhance it.

Actually the economy had slumped. A recession was on its way and it very shortly after his inauguration and before 911. The tax cuts certainly helped that recession stay minor. What is wrong with making the tax cuts permanent. If you do your research the revenue growth of the US government is always higher following a large tax cut. (see the 20's, 60's and 80's) That is not to say that revenue doesnt increase when the tax rate is high, but simply that as you raise the tax rate on the upper echelon of earners you CREATE less top bracket payers. Refer back to the time period during and just after world war I when the numbers of earners in the highest bracket shrank dramatically which in turn slowed the rate of revenue growth for the government. I hope i made that clear. Finally the last point you make has to do with government spending. If that were really a concern you would NEVER vote democrat. I do agree that we are spending too much money. However, I would love to hear yours or the johns thoughts on where we CUT that spending out. 911 has caused much of this spending spree and will terrorism will continue to be a more expensive fight.

quote:
I think 10/29, 1929 still outranks 9/11, 2001 purely in terms of economic impact both here and abroad. Don't you teach history?


Yes I teach history and if you had paid attention in your history class you would surely understand that the stock market panic was ONE of many causes of the great depression. Yes, it had an impact, but nowhere near the scale of 911. However, if you want to lump all the events that caused the great depression (smoot-hawley, credit, speculation, and even the uneven distribution of wealth) into one then certainly it outweighs 911.

quote:
Record deficit : not very positive
Rising inflation : not very positive
Balance of Payments deficit increasing : not very positive
Interest rates being forced to rise (after being artifically sunk for 3 years) : not very positive
Less than 1/4 of projected new jobs added this last month : positive, but also negative


The deficit is again a direct result of 911. Surely you can see that fighting the war on terror is gonna cause us deficits for years to come. We have two choices...let them attack us here or fight them over there. This should be the main issue that decides your vote. Kerry is gonna handle it just like clinton did. "We better get permission before doing anything to those that want to see us dead." Bush doesnt care about permission. Finally, in my experience interest rates usually rise when the economy is recovering not when it is suffering. Perhaps I am wrong about this as economics is not my strong point.

quote:
How melodramatic. He only plans to roll back the Bush tax cuts that affect top of top quartile earners. Hardly 'oblivion', and hardly affecting everyone.


Sigh, another fooled sheep. Surely you dont REALLY believe that is his only intention. I suppose you believe that he can somehow force businesses to stay here too (much like he did his wifes). I suppose you also belive the dems ONLY want take away those automatic machine guns too. Dont be so gullible and please look at the history of the democratic party and understand that this one is FAR more liberal than the others have been. I cannot wait to see him try to pay for a war on terror AND pay for every homeless crackheads healthcare. It could be kinda comical.

quote:
Personally I find it terriby amusing that you spout a lot of 'You are so brainwashed you only listen to what the 'Liberal Media' tells you' comments. Frankly you have no idea where I get my information, nor do you really know my views on things outside of what I've spoken so far. And seeing as I've made one post, in the middle of the night while half asleep, its probably a sound thought that its not a complete picture, Wouldn't you agree?


Personally i find it amusing when people try to hide the fact that they are bleeding heart liberals and get their talking points from the media or from libby websites. Give me something original. At least Typhoon inserts some original comments into his arguments. As for your views, I have a pretty good idea. Federalized health care, yes to homosexual marriage, yes to gun control, no to military spending, no to "under God" in the pledge, yes to legalized abortion, and yes to a redistribution of wealth. I suppose you are also for reparations for the African-Americans because the white people used their ancestors as slaves? How close was i?

quote:
But he has also managed to get almost the entire world pissed at us in the process.

Again, instead of harping on a liberal talking point please tell me what should be done to fix this problem and WHY it should matter. Dont tell me that the world could get really mad at us and beat us up because we both know that wont happen. They rely too heavily on us and GB and I am not sure the rest of the world could take us out anyway.

quote:It will be a very sad day indeed for people like you when you finally get around to questioning what your Government is doing, and find out it's far too late to do anything about it!


Ok, I will bite. Tell me again exactly what is gonna happen and how Bush is like Hitler. I love the story.

quote:
The United States decided to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki a very long time AFTER Japan had expressed a desire to surrender. This is documented historical fact! Why would the Government lie to the American People and say that the bombs were necessary to bring a "quick end" to the war? Simple. The Government saw a chance to send a powerful message to the USSR! That is why the bombs were dropped!


Yep, we went ahead anyway. Yes, it is even in your present day history books that the USSR was sent a message with our dropping of the bomb. Yes, it even says that Japan was willing to surrender...WITH CONDITIONS. These conditions were not something that a losing enemy who had bombed the hell out of Pearl Harbor deserved. The japanese government was too "proud" to surrender unconditionally so we saved lives by killing them. I know you are another liberal but us conservatives believe a couple hundred thousand dead japanese civilians was better than the estimated up to ONE MILLION dead in an attempted invasion. Sorry, charlie. You dont hold any clout here with your conspiracy theories and doomsday prophecies. It is not gonna happen while I am alive and I am probably younger than you so you can stop stressing over the government knocking on your door to arrest you for sedition.


http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/himalia2.htm

Bone, the Government has been lying to you since the day you were born. Carter went on Television and told everyone that the "gas shortages" were due to the "immediate depletion" of the world's oil supply! Yes, Bone, Carter was a Democrat, but if you think Reagan and Bush Senior were any less liars, you are just plain gullible and your head is in the sand.





[/quote]