quote:Originally posted by Jasper

quote:

I don't see how one could conclude that this is merely a gameop throwing his weight around and "accusing good players of cheating."

Again just my opinion, nothing more.


Thowing his weight around? Vader acted fairly, and in a most profesional manner. After consulting everyone involved, he made a rational, sane, and reasonable decision. I was in that game, AND I was consulted. I have NO problem with Yader's handling of the entire affair.

Jasper


Maybe I'm missing something here, or perhaps you missed something [?] You quoted me as saying "I don't see how one could conclude that this is merely a gameop throwing his weight around." I wasn't defaming the gameop in any way. I wasn't even talking about him specifically, but instead talking in general about people making remarks to the tune of what you (incorrectly) attribute to me.

All I was saying was that it's NOT some gameop throwing his weight around if people are accused of cheating for doing this, because it seems to me that everyone knows that this is wrong and that they shouldn't be doing it. I was saying the gameop would be justified in calling this cheating, that was my whole point.

I hope this clears things up. I really don't understand where you're coming from here, but then it's 2am so ...

quote:

I don't see how one could conclude that this is merely a gameop throwing his weight around and "accusing good players of cheating."

Again just my opinion, nothing more.


Thowing his weight around? Vader acted fairly, and in a most profesional manner. After consulting everyone involved, he made a rational, sane, and reasonable decision. I was in that game, AND I was consulted. I have NO problem with Yader's handling of the entire affair.

Jasper
quote:

Maybe I'm missing something here, or perhaps you missed something [?] You quoted me as saying "I don't see how one could conclude that this is merely a gameop throwing his weight around." I wasn't defaming the gameop in any way. I wasn't even talking about him specifically, but instead talking in general about people making remarks to the tune of what you (incorrectly) attribute to me.

All I was saying was that it's NOT some gameop throwing his weight around if people are accused of cheating for doing this, because it seems to me that everyone knows that this is wrong and that they shouldn't be doing it. I was saying the gameop would be justified in calling this cheating, that was my whole point.

I hope this clears things up. I really don't understand where you're coming from here, but then it's 2am so ...



Your reply to me was obviously in rebuttle. By stating "it's NOT some gameop throwing his weight around", you are implying I meant that very thing. That is not true. Vader is a great gameop and is highly respected by me and I'm sure many others.

Jasper

quote:Originally posted by Jasper
Mega rob not an exploit? Seems to me it is. It sure beats the exp = amount that can be robbed formula. I'm sure in some MBBS game in years past, a sysop caught a certain player mega robbing and banned him for cheating. Now my memory isn't the greatest, but I think you guys tried to remove it once and there was a clamore for its return.
Are you saying that the first time the MBBS version was compiled you actually put the mega rob in as an undocumented feature?

Please explain to me again how its not an exploit and circumvision of the basic rules of the game

Note I said if this is not the direction you want tw to go in, you'll change it. As stated, you have fixed already...

Jasper



The MBBS code was written from the ground up for the MBBS system and was written to be multiplayer, it was not based on the DOOR code it's not even in the same language. The MBBS version was not written by Martech it was written by HVS and EIS doesn't even have the source for the MBBS version now, so as to whether Mega Rob was intentionally added or not you will need to find a HVS representative and ask them, it was however in every version of MBBS and it was widely reported and never corrected if it wasn't intentional.

Mega Rob was never apart of the Martech version of Trade Wars, of which is the base of the game played today so no it wasn't removed once. When v3 and TWGS began taking over as the preferred version of multiplayer Trade Wars MBBS players asked for quite a few things to be changed to more closely resemble the MBBS version, EIS felt that as a base the game play should remain true to the original DOOR version of Trade Wars but added MBBS Mode to try and satisfy the MBBS players.

When MBBS Mode was being designed quite a few tactics that were available to MBBS players that weren't in the DOOR version were brought forward, there were two main tactics that were asked to be included that were by far the most popular among these MBBS players, being 0 Turn colonizing and Mega Rob. Before inclusion in MBBS mode these tactics were discussed to decide the validity of them in respects to balanced game play and basic game principles. Mega Rob did not meet the exploit definition for a few reasons first before v3 of TW the rob and steal factors were never officially released they were known by trial an error what the best range of EXP * Z and EXP / Z but the bust code was also different and other factors were involved in the frequency of busting then this range and a simple mathematical variable, second you still randomly busted about the same rate as you did within the "optimum" variable range and third it doesn't circumvent a basic premise of the game, robbing is a part of the game and if busted you are still penalized on the same scale.

By contrast 0 turn colonizing met exactly the definition of an exploit in that it circumvented a basic premise of the game being that you could move an in game asset with out turn penalty, that in doing so a message even was displayed that this was occurring (1 turn deducted, you have 0 remaining) and you got something for nothing. Because of this the tactic was deemed an exploit and this was not included in MBBS mode. Many such MBBS tactics fell into this category but these were the most popular two and demonstrate that popularity of a tactic has nothing really to do with what is considered an exploit and either removed or not included by EIS, and what is considered a viable tactic and the difference between the two.

Now as to your comment that at some point a sysop some where probably caught a player Mega Robbing and banned them, I have no doubt it may have occurred, I have heard of Sysop's banning people for using scripts, I myself was once thrown off a BBS for using SST and making money too fast. Does that mean that these things are cheating? On those BBS's I guess they were since the Sysop deemed them to be so and BBS's weren't for the most part Democratic, nor are rules of play the same from place to place, but they certainly were not the norm nor were they considered by the vast majority of Sysop's and players to be cheating. To try and compare these things with something so universally regarded as cheating is ridicules.

quote:Originally posted by Jasper

quote:

I don't see how one could conclude that this is merely a gameop throwing his weight around and "accusing good players of cheating."

Again just my opinion, nothing more.


Thowing his weight around? Vader acted fairly, and in a most profesional manner. After consulting everyone involved, he made a rational, sane, and reasonable decision. I was in that game, AND I was consulted. I have NO problem with Yader's handling of the entire affair.

Jasper
quote:

Maybe I'm missing something here, or perhaps you missed something [?] You quoted me as saying "I don't see how one could conclude that this is merely a gameop throwing his weight around." I wasn't defaming the gameop in any way. I wasn't even talking about him specifically, but instead talking in general about people making remarks to the tune of what you (incorrectly) attribute to me.

All I was saying was that it's NOT some gameop throwing his weight around if people are accused of cheating for doing this, because it seems to me that everyone knows that this is wrong and that they shouldn't be doing it. I was saying the gameop would be justified in calling this cheating, that was my whole point.

I hope this clears things up. I really don't understand where you're coming from here, but then it's 2am so ...



Your reply to me was obviously in rebuttle. By stating "it's NOT some gameop throwing his weight around", you are implying I meant that very thing. That is not true. Vader is a great gameop and is highly respected by me and I'm sure many others.

Jasper


Sigh. I don't understand where the inconsistency is here but I think I'll just make this last comment and then I'm done with this thread. I am NOT talking about Vader or any specific sysop. You quoted me as saying this very thing. I was making a commment about what you said earlier, which (I presumed) was also NOT about a specific sysop, but just a general comment you were making using this case as an example.

You said, and I quote, "What oz did was wrong, only because gameop said this tactic is unacceptable."

That's what I was responding to, the last part in italics. I wasn't talking about a specific gameop. I was just saying that in THIS case it was something everyone knew was wrong and that it was not something as simple as some gameop "calling it cheating because that was his personal take" or something like that.

Again. Nothing to do with Vader. Had everything to do with the italics up there, that's it. If anything I'd say the comment by you actually was implying something about Vader, but that's semantics and I don't think anyone really cares at this point, including me.

Please tell me this clears things up. If not I'm sorry but that's the best I can do. [B)]

quote:

Please tell me this clears things up. (snip)... I'm sorry ...


Apology accepted

Jasper

quote:


The MBBS code was written from the ground up for the MBBS system and was written to be multiplayer, it was not based on the DOOR code it's not even in the same language. The MBBS version was not written by Martech it was written by HVS and EIS doesn't even have the source for the MBBS version now, so as to whether Mega Rob was intentionally added or not you will need to find a HVS representative and ask them, it was however in every version of MBBS and it was widely reported and never corrected if it wasn't intentional.

Mega Rob was never apart of the Martech version of Trade Wars, of which is the base of the game played today so no it wasn't removed once. When v3 and TWGS began taking over as the preferred version of multiplayer Trade Wars MBBS players asked for quite a few things to be changed to more closely resemble the MBBS version, EIS felt that as a base the game play should remain true to the original DOOR version of Trade Wars but added MBBS Mode to try and satisfy the MBBS players.

When MBBS Mode was being designed quite a few tactics that were available to MBBS players that weren't in the DOOR version were brought forward, there were two main tactics that were asked to be included that were by far the most popular among these MBBS players, being 0 Turn colonizing and Mega Rob. Before inclusion in MBBS mode these tactics were discussed to decide the validity of them in respects to balanced game play and basic game principles. Mega Rob did not meet the exploit definition for a few reasons first before v3 of TW the rob and steal factors were never officially released they were known by trial an error what the best range of EXP * Z and EXP / Z but the bust code was also different and other factors were involved in the frequency of busting then this range and a simple mathematical variable, second you still randomly busted about the same rate as you did within the "optimum" variable range and third it doesn't circumvent a basic premise of the game, robbing is a part of the game and if busted you are still penalized on the same scale.

By contrast 0 turn colonizing met exactly the definition of an exploit in that it circumvented a basic premise of the game being that you could move an in game asset with out turn penalty, that in doing so a message even was displayed that this was occurring (1 turn deducted, you have 0 remaining) and you got something for nothing. Because of this the tactic was deemed an exploit and this was not included in MBBS mode. Many such MBBS tactics fell into this category but these were the most popular two and demonstrate that popularity of a tactic has nothing really to do with what is considered an exploit and either removed or not included by EIS, and what is considered a viable tactic and the difference between the two.


Your reply is logical, concise and lucid. I stand corrected

quote:


Now as to your comment that at some point a sysop some where probably caught a player Mega Robbing and banned them, I have no doubt it may have occurred, I have heard of Sysop's banning people for using scripts, I myself was once thrown off a BBS for using SST and making money too fast. Does that mean that these things are cheating? On those BBS's I guess they were since the Sysop deemed them to be so and BBS's weren't for the most part Democratic, nor are rules of play the same from place to place, but they certainly were not the norm nor were they considered by the vast majority of Sysop's and players to be cheating. To try and compare these things with something so universally regarded as cheating is ridicules.


I don't think comparing the two are ridicules. There are gameops that NEVER run MBBS games, they think mega robbing IS cheating

What if many peeps decided to use this (photoning fed) as a common practice. How would it change gameplay?

I bet there are players trying to figure how to defend against it right now. I can imagine a tourny where say after 24 hrs photoning fed is allowed. Thereby eliminating ANY safe place for players.

You guys would put in such a provision if there were enough requests for it.

quote:
I don't think comparing the two are ridicules. There are gameops that NEVER run MBBS games, they think mega robbing IS cheating

What if many peeps decided to use this (photoning fed) as a common practice. How would it change gameplay?

I bet there are players trying to figure how to defend against it right now. I can imagine a tourny where say after 24 hrs photoning fed is allowed. Thereby eliminating ANY safe place for players.

You guys would put in such a provision if there were enough requests for it.



What would be the point of fed space? Photoning it eliminates the usefullness of Fed except for the player that wants to sit there with 50k figs on an ISS who tries to attack someone at SD or coming off of Terra - thinking of the mixed corps with their blues always fed safe.

I doubt if photoning fed will ever be common since we have seen the reaction of most players during the threads on the subject. The reaction is the same as to the idiot that made all of the dupe accounts on Alien Base who, in my opinion, has the maturity level of a 2 yr old.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

quote:

What would be the point of fed space? Photoning it eliminates the usefullness ...


Exactly the point. This might be an interesting twist to add to a tournement. Just something to think about...

quote:

I doubt if photoning fed will ever be common since we have seen the reaction of most players during the threads on the subject.




I agree totally. Fedspace is a sacred part of the game. It is essential to have safe areas for players. Taking away Fedspace would be a fudamental and drastic change to TW. I do NOT want this to happen.

Jasper

quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (teamEIS)

[quote]Originally posted by Jasper
To try and compare these things with something so universally regarded as cheating is ridicules. [/white]


I must say Rick, your explanation of things concerning Mega Rob is by far the BEST explanation I've ever heard! I asked JP way back when he was getting ready to implement the MBBS Mode if he was going to put the "Mega Rob Bug" into it. He said almost the exact same you said here (but in a shorter version). According to JP, he researched it thoroughly and even Gary Martin was insistent that Mega Rob was NEVER a bug, and that it was intentional. I believe this to be the case.

Now, one thing I must say, because this feature did not exist in the Doors version of Twars, MOST (who weren't as knowledgeable as you are) absolutely considered it a bug! I personally was banned from 3 servers that I can remember for using it, and I think there was more than that. The reason I bring this up is, you shouldn't be too hard on people who compare it to other bugs, because, really there has never been a concise public explanation of Mega Rob, where it came from, why it exists, and why it is not a bug (until now of course).

In the long run, Mega Rob benefits Good corps as well as Evil, and that is because it is an integral part of "Mega Corping" whereby the goods buy product off their ports and sell them, then pass on the ports to the Evils who get the good's money back! It was an ingenius feature to the game, and I was pleased to see it incorporated into the Gold versions! I was sad to see Zero Turn Moving go away, because it was a great feature for Evils who couldn't get colonists. They could move the little cols they had from planet to planet for upgrade without using turns.

I just wanted to applaude your explanation, it certainly cleared things up in my mind as well.

Just, remember Rick, Mega Rob was considered a bug by many, many people for a long time. It's going to take a while to stamp that out.

I don't think it will be an issue much longer. After checking the release history of TWGS (finally) the Photon Fed Bug was corrected in v.57 and is no longer exploitable. Any servers running games under earlier releases though will still allow that "FEATURE".

quote:Originally posted by Promethius

quote:
I don't think comparing the two are ridicules. There are gameops that NEVER run MBBS games, they think mega robbing IS cheating

What if many peeps decided to use this (photoning fed) as a common practice. How would it change gameplay?

I bet there are players trying to figure how to defend against it right now. I can imagine a tourny where say after 24 hrs photoning fed is allowed. Thereby eliminating ANY safe place for players.

You guys would put in such a provision if there were enough requests for it.



What would be the point of fed space? Photoning it eliminates the usefullness of Fed except for the player that wants to sit there with 50k figs on an ISS who tries to attack someone at SD or coming off of Terra - thinking of the mixed corps with their blues always fed safe.

I doubt if photoning fed will ever be common since we have seen the reaction of most players during the threads on the subject. The reaction is the same as to the idiot that made all of the dupe accounts on Alien Base who, in my opinion, has the maturity level of a 2 yr old.