Ok, there has been an ongoing dispute between myself and several others concerning how offensive fighters operate. I've examined the formulas some present to predict how offensive fighters will act and they NEVER act that way.

Keep in mind, I'm TERRIBLE at math and I only know what my experience has been.

I have been assured by many the 58 million offensive fighters in a sector cannot pod a ship that holds 300k fighters, 12,000 shields, and gets 1.8 to one defensive odds. Indeed, I tested this out and I survived. Yet, I've also been told that if you put 7 planets in that same sector, all with in excess of 4 million ore, set at 1 percent sector, this same ship will STILL NOT GET PODDED.

Here's what happened last night at alien base. I entered a sector that had 463,000 offensive fighters and two planets. The planets were hitting at 25k sector quasar each.

The ship I was in had 200k fighters and 5000 shields, with 1.5 defensive odds.

I got podded. The quasars knocked me down to zero shields and 163,000 fighters, then the 463,000 offensive fighters podded me.

If I take the forumulas given to me, something does not compute here.

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord


Here's what happened last night at alien base. I entered a sector that had 463,000 offensive fighters and two planets. The planets were hitting at 25k sector quasar each.

The ship I was in had 200k fighters and 5000 shields, with 1.5 defensive odds.

I got podded. The quasars knocked me down to zero shields and 163,000 fighters, then the 463,000 offensive fighters podded me.

If I take the forumulas given to me, something does not compute here.


Quoted from TW-cabal:
Offensive Fig Odds*: 1:1
*NOTE: As of version .55, Offensive figs will calculate the number of figs required to destroy your ship (your max total shields and figs, not your current shields and figs as in previous versions) based on 1:1 odds, and then send 1.25 times that amount (or the remaining figs if it's less than that). If you are in a ship with 1:1.3 odds or better, your ship will survive the attack. Any figs that survive the attack or aren't used remain in the sector..

200k figs + 5k shields = 205k
205k * 1.25 = 256.25k off figs attack
256.25k / 1.5 (ship def odds) = 170.83k damage to ship
You would need 170.83k figs to survive the offensive figs; you had 163k

SGO,

Did we not explain it clearly enough over on twgs.org? Had you posted the exact figures that you posted here, we could have easily explained it to you just like arucard did. Instead you just rambled on about what Kemper3 said about offensive figs. True, if you enter a sector with only offensive figs, no mines, navhaz, q-cannons, if your in a ship with 1:1.3 or better def odds, you will not be podded. But once cannons, mines, or navhaz enter the equation, things change.


HHH

My question is "Were photons turned off"?

As Arucard quoted:

quote:
*NOTE: As of version .55, Offensive figs will calculate the number of figs required to destroy your ship (your max total shields and figs, not your current shields and figs as in previous versions)


It figures out how many off figs to send based on your max figs and shields, not your actual figs and shields if the game is .55 or above. So if you are in a ISS that has 1.5 odds with 2K figs and 3K shields, and you hit 10K off sector figs in TWGS .55 or above, guess what happens?

quote:Originally posted by Hunter Hearst Helmsley

SGO,

Did we not explain it clearly enough over on twgs.org? Had you posted the exact figures that you posted here, we could have easily explained it to you just like arucard did. Instead you just rambled on about what Kemper3 said about offensive figs. True, if you enter a sector with only offensive figs, no mines, navhaz, q-cannons, if your in a ship with 1:1.3 or better def odds, you will not be podded. But once cannons, mines, or navhaz enter the equation, things change.


HHH



Yes, I guess him and his Asehoo friend just cant get things correct.

Jeez. What they mean is that the cannons weakend you enough for the figs to finish you. You can't just take the one equation when several things are happening.

Yes there is a certain percent of max figs and shields that you need to survive an attack in .55 and above. If the qcannons and mines take away most of your figs and shields, then you are toast when the offensive figs hit you. As the game sends offensive figs based on your MAX FIGS and MAX SHEILDS for your ship and not what you have if it is TWGS .55 or higher. Key words here being "MAX", not what you have on you. So if you got a max of 50K figs and 3K shields in an ISS, and it has 1.5 odds, and the qcannons do 40K damage and the mines do 2K damage, the game still sends 66.25K figs at 1:1 odds to attack your ship if it is TWGS .55 or higher.

TWGS .54 or lower is another story.

quote:Originally posted by Rofellos

Jeez. What they mean is that the cannons weakend you enough for the figs to finish you. You can't just take the one equation when several things are happening.




I realize this, of course, however, there were two separate events that do not equate to me. Of course, we are talking two different ships, two different universes, however, originally I posted HERE (not twars.org) about the following (and I'm going by memory so excuse me if the figures aren't exactly the same as my original post some months back).

I had 7 planets in one sector, the six of them had 6 million ore, and one had 4.5 million ore, all set at (I believe) 1 percent sector, it might have been 2 percent, but as you will see in a moment the EXACT percentage is irrelevant because there were ALSO 58 MILLION offensive figs in the same sector.

The ships in question carried 300k figs, 12k shields and had 1.8 to one defensive odds. Two individuals in this type of ship attacked the sector and weren't podded, not ONCE!

I was told by numerous individuals here (including a tech support for eisonline) that these ships should NOT have been podded (even with all that ore shooting at them) because "they had over 1.2 defensive odds" or some such nonsense, and a formula was offered to prove it.

I went to a test server created ships exactly as I described then attempted to enter an identical sector, time after time (over 9 times) the ship I was in was destroyed.

Yet I was being assured that the ship should NOT be destroyed!

I said, ok, maybe my test was fouled and I didn't set the ships right or maybe the planets quasars had been turned off by mistake after I put them in place, and I dropped the entire issue.

Then, at Alien Base, I entered a sector that had 3 measly planets, all three hitting for about 25k damage in sector blast and a measley 400k offensive figs. This ship in question had (I think) 2 to 1 defensive odds or better, carried 200k figs and 5000 shields. I figured, heck if 7 planets loaded with 6 million ore and shooting 1 to 2 percent into the sector, and 58 million offensive figs is not enough to pod a ship with 1.8 defensive and 300k/16k protection, then I KNOW 3 planets, low on ore, and doing only 20 to 25k damage, and a mere 400k offensive figs is NOT going to pod me in this particular ship! I had Ae Soo stand by and watch and I went in there, and promptly came out in a pod, despit the technical support assuring me that if a ship has 1.2 defensive odds or better, 7 planets shooting ore and 58 million offensive fighters is NOT enough to pod it!

No the numbers are NOT exact, but look the PRINCIPLE HERE is the same. Someone somewhere is giving me bad information and the formulas and statements being made by the so called "experts" do NOT match what I am experiencing in real game play.

That's the only point I am trying to make, and NO I don't have forumulas, or capture files, or other such nonsense, I only know that it doesn't add up!

quote:That's the only point I am trying to make, and NO I don't have forumulas, or capture files, or other such nonsense, I only know that it doesn't add up!
Do you have any idea how insanely stupid that statement is? I've tried being polite here, I've tried answering your questions, but in return all I get is insults. So be it. You don't understand the formulas that you've been given as to how the offensive figs work. You don't have captures to show how it actually worked in your game. You're sitting here telling me and others they don't know what they're talking about when you manifestly don't have a ****ing clue, nor do you care to get one. You selectively read posts and then think you can intuitively come up with how things are going to behave. I'm putting this post here so anyone reading your posts in the future can understand how completely stupid you truly are. I come here to help people, and the thought that someone might come here, read what a moron like you posted, and then spread that bull**** really pisses me off. I'll give one last run down on exactly how it works, just for the people in the future who might read this. Don't bother responding, dumbass, because it's quite clear you have no interest in actually trying to understand the game.

Offensive figs attack with 1.25 * (max figs + max shields). They attack with 1:1 odds. The initial post here outlines the settings. The sector was entered in a ship that could take 205k damage (figs + shields). The planets did 42k damage. This left 163k figs on the ship. Now the sector figs attack. They send 1.25 * 205000 = 256250 figs at your ship attacking at 1:1 odds. The ship defends at 1.5:1 odds, meaning it can effecively defend against 163000 * 1.5 = 244500 figs. The difference here is 256250 figs sent, your ship defends against the first 244500 figs, meaning 256250 - 244500 = 11750 figs were left which killed the ship. THIS is how it works, every time. If you don't do the math, don't think you can just guess how it's going to come out. When you change cannon blasts, ship odds, and ship fig min/max, you have to rework it for those variables.

just a quick question of the past.. i am not doubting you harley, i know you are right, but way back in the day, didnt sector offensive fighters attack at .8:1? for some reason that sounds right to me (for back in the day, not now) just curious, thanks,
Slim

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

just a quick question of the past.. i am not doubting you harley, i know you are right, but way back in the day, didnt sector offensive fighters attack at .8:1? for some reason that sounds right to me (for back in the day, not now) just curious, thanks,
Slim



There have been many changes to offensive figs in the past..
It wasnt so many revisions ago when a ship with 0 fig & 0 sheild would be 100% safe hitting offensive figs (they would never go off)
The fighters did become more potent I belive (but this mod was done a while back).

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

just a quick question of the past.. i am not doubting you harley, i know you are right, but way back in the day, didnt sector offensive fighters attack at .8:1? for some reason that sounds right to me (for back in the day, not now) just curious, thanks,
Slim


If I read the TW-Cabal notice correctly, the current combat system for offensive figs was last changed in TWGS .55, so previous versions may have had different odds, sent fewer offensive figs, etc. Watch your version numbers and do the math.

I don't recall offensive figs attacking at .8:1 odds, but I've only played on TWGS versions since .39. Prior to .55, they would attack with 1.25 * current figs. It very well could have been different before that, too.

quote:Originally posted by Harley Nuss (teamEIS)

quote:That's the only point I am trying to make, and NO I don't have forumulas, or capture files, or other such nonsense, I only know that it doesn't add up!
Do you have any idea how insanely stupid that statement is? I've tried being polite here, I've tried answering your questions, but in return all I get is insults.



I'm reading this entire topic, and I'm scanning, looking for the insults, and I don't see any. I can't find a single insult aimed at you or anyone else. If there is one in these posts, quote it here now, otherwise, it's possible you owe me an apology.

quote:
So be it. You don't understand the formulas that you've been given as to how the offensive figs work. You don't have captures to show how it actually worked in your game. You're sitting here telling me and others they don't know what they're talking about when you manifestly don't have a ****ing clue, nor do you care to get one.

I just scanned my posts again, I don't see anywhere where I told anyone they don't know what they are talking about, in fact I don't see as I even call into question the validity of the formulas. Not really, I'm just trying to make a point from a lamen's view (which I openly admit that I am). No, have no desire to calculate equations and formulas to play this game, and you know what, there are a lot of other players like me. I don't think I should be berated for this, nor should I be called names and insulted (especially by a member of the support team of the company that makes the game). I'm wondering if JP would approve of this. We have one thing in common, I came here for help to understand something, and you came here supposedly to help. Yet, instead of help I receive unbelievable mistreatment! I'm personally apalled, and I believe others will be too!

quote:
You selectively read posts and then think you can intuitively come up with how things are going to behave. I'm putting this post here so anyone reading your posts in the future can understand how completely stupid you truly are. I come here to help people, and the thought that someone might come here, read what a moron like you posted, and then spread that bull**** really pisses me off. I'll give one last run down on exactly how it works, just for the people in the future who might read this. Don't bother responding, dumbass, because it's quite clear you have no interest in actually trying to understand the game.

My only point is this, and I've shared what I'm being told with others who are veteran players, and even though your formulas are exactly right and I would never attempt to dispute them, not in a million years, what I'm getting at is this.

I never "selectively" read any post you've made Harley. Originally, when this subject came up, I was stunned that I had set up a sector so that it would pod two people into oblivion for at least 3 days. There were others who were witness to the way the sectors were set up.
I'm being assured by those people that the sectors were indeed left the way I am saying here now. 7 planets, 6 with over 6 million ore and one with 4.5 million ore, set to 2 percent atmospheric (no it was not 1 percent, I went back and asked my former corp partners). So, they were set to 2 percent atmosphere. There were 58 million fighters in the sector, offensive. The ships that were used to invade had 1.8 defensive and 1.8 offensive, carried 300k figs and 12,000 shields. Photons were DISABLED. These two individuals not only took this sector in 30 minutes, but did so without getting podded once.

When I originally posted this scenario, you explained that there was nothing "necessarily" abnormal about them taking the sector without getting podded, and you offered the same formula you are offering here.

Those are the facts! In your post you dismissed the quasars entirely, and focused only on how the offensive figs would act, but to my lamen ears even that didn't sound right. I couldn't believe that 58 million figs alone would not pod that ship. Of course, you were absolutely right and I was totally wrong on that point.

Yet, the fact remains that the scenario I described here happened as I said (whether anyone believes me or not is irrelevant). Can we agree that in the above scenario, with defenses set the way I'm describing, the ships should have been podded numerous times? Why can't we agree on that? Why do you have to accuse me of being stupid, in error on the way the sectors were set, and berate me in public? Why can't you simply say, "they should have been podded IF the sectors were set the way you claim?" Then we can move on?

As for this new series of posts, here's why I wrote them, if anyone is curios!

You have a NEW player, who doesn't know the formulas (or an old player like me). He is in a ship with 1.8 defensive odds and hits a sector with 58 million figs (no quasars), and survives! He's like "wow this is a powerful ship." He notes to himself that the ship has 1.8 defensive odds.

Now, he's in a game with a ship that has 2.5 defensive odds. He sees a sector with 400k offensive fighters and 3 quasar planets, and wonders how strong the planets are. Someone says "I just went in there, they are each hitting for 25k damage." He says, heck, I was in a ship with less defensive odds just the other day and it survived an attack by a whopping 58 million offensive figs! This ship can take that.

He flies in there and exits in a pod, the 400k offensive figs have finished him off after receiving just 21 to 22 k damage from each quasar.

Can ANY OF YOU SEE why that person would be sitting there in his pod going "what the heck is going on?"

So what's my point? I have no doubt that the offensive fighters behave exactly as you have described. I have no doubt the formulas work. What I am saying is that "perhaps" and just "perhaps" the formulas by which offensive fighters work are flawed (just a little) because in one scenario man I flew into 2 BILLION offensive fighters and survived! In another case I died on 1 million!

Realistically, I'm amazed by this, and here's why! If, as a pilot I fly into enemy territory and come up against 250 enemy fighter jets, and they get a bead on me. Does it seem likely that only a certain percentage of them are going to attack depending on my ship's odds of making it out?

I mean look people, you are flying into a sector of 2 BILLION FIGHTERS! Only a small percentage of them attack you? They are offensive which means "attack immediately." What? Are the rest of those billions of fighters out to lunch or taking a crap or something?

I'm just saying, the way they attack (or I should say the way MOST of them DON'T attack) is the most illogical thing I've ever seen in my life.

Hey, it's just an opinion! Now, I don't need a formula to form this opinion! It just makes no sense that a guy flies into a sector with 58 million offensive fighters, and he's only got 300k fighters on him, and he comes out alive!

That's like me stumbling into a city in Iraq by myself, and there are 2 million people living in that city armed to the teeth, and I manage to escape ALIVE?

Geez, that seems kind of silly to me, but like I said, it's just MY opinion. You can say 'well that's because you don't understand the formulas!" Yada yada yada! I don't care about them. The formulas are WRONG. Those 58 million fighters should attack until the person is dead plain and simple.

DO YOU GET IT NOW???????????




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