Since the thread is getting to long im posting this on a new one.
Kasey wrote:
Well I got news for you, it's these scripts that make it so you don't have to play 24/7 and allow you to have a life outside of tradewars. Many of the scripts run while AFK, so it is possible to have a life and have fun playing tradewars. At least know what you are talking about before you attack us. We are all adults and have all been playing since the early days of tradewars, it's just we have changed with the game where you have not. That's your choice but don't freak out because we have evolved with the game you have not. It is fine by me that you play on your own server with all the others that hate change. I could care less, but post it before other people waste their time and accidently begin a game there.

Jschrey wrote:
Wow what a thread:-)
But seriously, I must agree with a lot that has been said from Solon. I am sitting in Germany and would love to get the Game better known here in the old countries. But everytime I find somebody who is willing to try it (that is rather hard,because of the language problem)they tell me thats no fun, and that they are not gonna waste their time playing against a lot of roboters/scipts. Trade wars is not a scriptwriting convention. It could be a lot more fun I think if one would make it harder for scripties and redplayers. I dont yet know this server from solon, but I am going to try it out to get my own impression
When I was in my twentys we had a slogan "make love not war"
So all of you- have a nice new year anyway

Kasey wrote:
I can see your point, but there is not a script for strategy or organizing a team of players. The mundane tasks of the game have been scripted for as long as I have been playing.. roughly 10 years. PPT, SST, SDT, Moving product, exploring, colonizing, creating macros, capping ships, etc were all features available in old helper programs like TWHelper and Twar. The scripts used today are just improved versions of the old stuff. Not everyone back in the old days of tradewars had helpers but they were available to anyone that wanted to fork out the cash to get one. Same still holds true today, you get the good helpers and scripts if you are willing to pay for them or you can take the time to try and write your own. Scripts don't work all the time, in fact, I'm sure everyone has heard the excuse when getting killed "my script messed up". So they can be detrimental as well. I don't write scripts. I just use the ones that I have either paid to use or downloaded free ones off the internet. But I have them because I wanted to improve my gaming experience, took the time to find them, and now I enjoy the game alot more because of them. I still die, lose, etc.. they do not win a game for you. But they make the time you spend playing the game more efficient and less tedious. I applaud those who can write scripts, because it is not easy. I find that many players are willing to share scripts and tell you where to get some, because even the good players want a challenge. What fun is it to play where there is no challenge. Scripts did not ruin the game, they just changed it and improved it so you don't have to spend 24/7 playing. When I returned to the game after a 3 year break, it was like learning a whole new game. I'm sure many people don't agree with me, and that is fine, but don't knock it until you have tried it.
Happy New Year.

Mythrandir wrote:
Why don't you teach them how MOST PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME, jschrey? A lot of people have started and thrived in the current TW world.
"Booo-hooo!!! I can't play against people using scripts cuz I'm too stubborn or stupid to learn!"
Stupid luddites.

Jschrey wrote:
You are making it a bit easy for yourselves Mythrandir. If one has known the Game for a while he can make the switch from Tradewar to Scriptwar if he wants. I have programmed some years ago quite a lot in turbopascal and it wouldnt be so hard to start writing scripts I think. Basicly they are just macros. But why should I do that ? I enjoy playing without scripts. OK everybody uses a Helper, but there is a limit to what a helper does, and besides people know what a helper can and what not.
But there are some people, that dont really want to play Tradewar, they are just testing scripts and getting kicks out of that. Both sides have a point. But maybe they should not have to play together in the same game.
Just a thought

Draconis wrote:
I'm actually curious (probably should start a new thread, but oh well), where do you feel the line should be drawn between "Helper" and "too much script". For example, if you use a helper to fill figs in space, is that cool? Or to do PPT? If PPT what about red functions? This is is no way an attack, I'm just curious. I've seen the sentiment expressed before, but usually people answer with "advanced scripts" well, most red functions are that. I would be completely cool to play in a complete non helper, non script, non macro game. But from what I have found is that even people who say "no scripts" usually mean, my macros are okay, and what my helper does is okay.

Jschrey:
Your right, its quite hard to get the right edge to this matter.
What I think about this is:
If a good player (or a corp) gets in on a game very early (some wait of this chance, and get in, the Minute its opened) and if he (or they) execute their various scripts, they will have the Game in the hands on the end of the first day (or even sooner)
Conceive of a real newbe getting in this game, he does not have a chance at all and will be dead or worse within short time. If he experiences this on his first Games he will never play this Game again ever.
So I think its about fairness.
When you get in a Game you should have the same chance as some other player. That means the Sysop should make clear at the beginning of the Game if, and when- which Helpers and scripts are permitted and where the player can get them. There should be links to all the scripts that may be used in the Game and expulsions when excluded scripts are used. Sure, the experienced players will always have an Edge, - thats okay- even a Newbe knows that experience counts and will most likely win, but he has a (small but real) chance

Helpers are ok, I use them too (swath) but every player should know about them and have access to the same tools, and I mean real access, not dead links etc.
What would you think of a duell where one combatant uses a sword, the other an MG ?

Well,

I honestly feel that tradewars is based on how you use your assets, as well as how you get them. It really doesn't matter if everyone used scripts to attack, since there are scripts to defend as well.

I think the problem is the 'new oldschool' players need a re-education of the game, to catch up on what they missed. As well as the 'newbies'.. Chances are that would solve alot of the problems currently seen when people refer to scripts- Some people talk like scripts RUN and RUIN the game, well- I've never experienced this. Even the most automated scripts have issues- **IF** I had the time, I would play each and every single turn by hand, however, I don't have 5 hours to play 750 turns

As to a duel with a sword against an MG- Haven't you ever tried taking an L6 with an ISS and a photon? Happens everyday.

A player cannot be judged by the scripts he uses, only by the skill required for the player to do what he/she has done. You can be the best scriptwriter in the game, but if you do not know how to play, neither will your scripts- and vice versa- The entire subject of scripting pretty well boils down to, who is the best player, with or without scripts, it doesn't matter.

Look at Hellcat-
He was awesome, nomatter what he did. He played by hand, while most people were using TWAR, ATTAC, SWATH, and eventually TWX. He still did amazingly well. (as an aggressor)

You don't need better scripts to survive, you need to know how to play.

Graz

Jschrey, here is an original ideal: "Why don't you register TWGS and run your own server over in Germany and close the game and create accounts for those wanting to learn how to play?" Either that or talk to a GameOp to do it for you, a game, just for people you are training to play Tradewars by hand. Don't create accounts for anyone else, just the people you are training.

Grazhoppa, I am one of those veteran players from the 1980's and 1990's who became a newbie again and missed out. I am relearning the game again, and learning how scripts work. Of course you know that as you offered to teach me, as did many others. I am still improving my game. If I didn't have college and family matters, I'd have more time to play and learn more.

The problem is not scripting. It's those who refuse, based upon...? I'm not even sure what...to use the new style (scripts incl.) available. Newbie gets killed? heh, well, darn. Imagine that. Experienced players killing inexperienced ones. Why don't we all pretend to be newbs, make the same mistakes, and everyone will be happy? Woot! Yeehaa! No skill needed, come play!

Newbies should step it up... if they don't want to play, or are "discouraged" by better players, good riddance! Scripts/helpers/advice is readily available for those intersted. The others? Heh. They wouldn't put in the time to play all turns by hand, anyway.

Step off your soapbox, jschrey, and take a look at the game.

http://www.swath.net
http://www.twxproxy.com
http://www.tw-cabal.com
etc.
etc.
etc.

The info is there. Use it.

Script Kiddies get laid out by Griddlers

WE HAVE EXPLOSIVES

Res Judicata

You also fuse more than anyone I know

<G>

I think what it is, is that the newbies that are being trained are trained to play by hand. Now way can they compete against someone running scripts unless they get a ton of experience playing by hand. I imagine they are PPT without gaining experience and trying to guess at the best price, and then not making as many credits as someone with a PPT script. Then they don't even learn how to play red yet, and someone comes in a SSM/SST script and then a SDT script and gains a ton of credits and then dominates the game and kills all the newbies. Well within the rules of the game, the scripter has the advantage of knowing how to run scripts and make the most out of their turns.

Like I said, if newbies are giving up too easily, get them a private game to play in that only other newbies are allowed in. Then after they learn how to play by hand, teach them scripting. Mythrandir gave you good links for SWATH and TWX and the TW-CABAL hints and tips. Pass them on.

I think Hellcat is a she.
http://tradewars.fament.com/Cruncher/Hellcat.htm
You be the judge.

Sorry, he's a guy

I know, I ruined your wet dream

He's still a guy.

Graz

hC is your daddy, he got your SHE hangin sucka

Can't always tell by the picture.

Of course I wouldn't use my real picture either. Some people say I look like Clark Gabel, but I never noticed that before. I'd rather use a white haired man with a scared face and eye-patch, something that looks like a Space Pirate.

Well, since everyone calls you OB, you could:

A. Use a picture of a Tooth Brush

B. Use a picture of a Tampon

C. Use a picture of a white haired man, witha patch over one eye, a tampon in the other, and a toothbrush sticking out of his mouth, since you are, the 'total' package

Just playin w/ya

Graz

That was really funny. You also forgot OB/GYN:)

There are OB Associations:
http://www.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de/staff/tpreibis/usco.html

In College we are learning Organizational Behavior, another OB.

Screw the Newbies.. If they want to learn, they will, if they don't, they die and quit. I have enough oldbies to deal with. Survival of the fittest seems to be the law of the universe. Imagine a lion teaching an antelope how not to be eaten. Give the antelope their own plains to frolic in so they don't give up.. laff.

When I first learned, it was on BBSes, before TW2002 was made. It was back when TW was written in MS BASIC. I got destroyed, but I learned from it. I talked to friends and got them to join and help out. I got them hooked. When TW2002 came out, I talked SYSOPS into running it, and maybe if they could afford it, register it. Some SYSOPS had me teach them how to play in a private game that only I and they had access to. It was one at a time so it was game mail and BBS mail to instruct them. They watched me play when I was online and took notes. Knowing how to play helped them host the games better and see what the other players were doing. If they played in their own public games, they got accused of cheating, so they set up private games to learn, and then played on other BBSes.

In some BBSes that I was the SYSOP on, I set up private games and only allowed newbies who wanted to learn to have access to them. They would attack each other, invade each other's planets, etc.

It was like a learning simulation, once they got into a real game they did better than they did before.

Imagine a lion teaching an antelop to roar and charge and dodge in their own plains. Gives them a better fighting chance against other lions.