I may be mistaken, Abraxus correct me if I am wrong. I think Abraxus was upset at how the Beta team change was handled. Then, he was further upset that there were not already plans in place to get the bug information from the beta team to the Sysops. Then, he was further upset at how he was treated by Gypsy and Hekate. I think that is the crux of his issue.

Col Sanders

"Jedi do not concern me" -The Sith

quote:
quote:
WOW, 215,000 doesn't quite reach my 240,000. Systems Analyst, WOW at my last gig a "systems analyst" was a desktop boy. I graduated to servers years ago. Maybe you should take the SA's advice and mind your manners.



I manage the Application DEV and CPCMECH teams, the DBA's and SYSADMIN's report to me. so while you are looking for your next gig maybe calling the Systems (notice that's plural) Analyst a desktop boy isn't the quickest way up the ladder...


Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS




WOW. Desktop boy.

quote:
quote:
WOW, 215,000 doesn't quite reach my 240,000. Systems Analyst, WOW at my last gig a "systems analyst" was a desktop boy. I graduated to servers years ago. Maybe you should take the SA's advice and mind your manners.



I manage the Application DEV and CPCMECH teams, the DBA's and SYSADMIN's report to me. so while you are looking for your next gig maybe calling the Systems (notice that's plural) Analyst a desktop boy isn't the quickest way up the ladder...


Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS




FYI, John and I appear to have come to an amicable solution. A simple answer to a small problem. I will be glad to remain an EIS customer going forward.

-Aitvo

quote:
I may be mistaken, Abraxus correct me if I am wrong. I think Abraxus was upset at how the Beta team change was handled. Then, he was further upset that there were not already plans in place to get the bug information from the beta team to the Sysops. Then, he was further upset at how he was treated by Gypsy and Hekate. I think that is the crux of his issue.



I don't normally don't do this but since some people in this discussion are basing their posts on information I assume obtained from a webpage with partial clips I will post the only 2 emails I have sent on this subject, So that you can read all the quotes in their complete context. Any other quotes attributed to me concerning this matter are untrue, as i said these are the only 2 emails i have sent, and the were both to Abraxus.


======== Original Message ===========

From: Gypsy
To: rockies1@everestkc.net
Subject: Beta Team Request
Date sent: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:03:53 -0500

I am sorry to hear that you have found the process for joining the Beta Team unsatisfactory. I would like to try and help clarify a few things for you so that you may better understand the process and the reason for it. First let me make clear that in no way am I over ruling or circumventing the process that Hekate (our Lead Beta Tester) has came up with in an effort to get us the best possible beta testing team. I stand behind Hekate 100%, but sometimes communication is lost in the email world to misunderstandings.

The reason why the beta team is closed and invite only is partly because we have had problems in the past with some beta testers "lurking" the forum with the only intention of finding bugs to exploit in game play. This is definitely not the reason we have the beta team. It is also a direct response to former members of the beta team who enjoyed being listed as a beta tester (you can see the names in the ABOUT section under help) but did very little testing, or none at all.

Hekate was asked to take over the beta team and organize it to a point of other game's beta teams. She got the directive to have a smaller more selective team directly from me, so if there is any blame for the selective (and therefore exclusive) nature of the new
team organization it is mine. I made this requirement not only with the goal in mind to eliminate the problems from the original beta team, as stated above, but to prepare for the next task of the beta team, which will be to test the next release. It's no secret that v3 is nearing a final release, and that EIS has plans to make a new release of the classic game. The beta team that is put together
for the final testing of v3 will be the front runners for the team that continues on to test the next version and any versions that will follow. This is the process by which nearly all game companies conduct beta testing.

It is our intention that the beta team has quality people with a good deal of experience in all aspects of game play as well as operator experience. What that means is not only do we want experienced players, but experienced SysOps/GameOps as well. It is not always the case that a great player is also a great operator, or vice-versa. We need every function of TWGS and Trade Wars tested, and although the v3 testing is winding down, the next task of the beta team will make this imperative.

The application/questionnaire is a tool that the Lead Beta tester uses to get a better idea of where your individual skills are best utilized, if at all. I understand of course that many people have time constraints, and that they may find filling out the application/questionnaire both an annoyance and waste of time. As I am sure you would agree, if someone hasn't the time to fill
out a small form, they surely haven't the time to dedicate to beta testing. One of the main things a beta tester must do is follow instructions to achieve a common goal, by not filling out the form it says you are not capable (or unwilling) to follow simple
instruction, this is also not what we are looking for.

I would like to also assure you that this is not an attempt to limit the beta team to "high profile" people nor is it a popularity contest. teamEIS in no way has any intention of "locking out" certain people. If your experience and qualifications merit acceptance you
will be asked to join, regardless of your name or personnel issues with any member of the beta team. We only ask that you remain professional and extend the same courtesy to other members of the team that is expected of you.

I have the utmost confidence in Hekate and Rave's ability to select an impartial and qualified team. I am sure if you take the time to fill out the requested form that your application will be judged fairly. If however you still feel after following the process put
forth by the Lead Beta Tester that your denial of access to the beta team is unrelated to your qualifications, please let
me know and I will review the matter further.

I hope this email clears up some misunderstandings, and I wish you the best of luck if you still choose to participate in the Beta Team

Rick Mead (teamEIS)
Project Manager

===========================================================


===============Reply To Reply of Original Message==============

From: Gypsy
To: "Erickson, Morgan"
Subject: Re: Beta Test Team
Date sent: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:37:56 -0500

I don't have an abundance of time to spend on these types of issues, but because you are a TWGS owner I will make one final effort to help you understand. I will respond throughout.


On 6 Mar 2002 at 13:34, Erickson, Morgan wrote:


> Despite your assurance that nobody would be locked out of the Beta > Test Team "...regardless of your name or personnel issues with
> any member of the beta team" it appears that Hekate has taken the > liberty of doing just that.
>
> Taken from her post at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tradewars ... sage/19709 :
>
> "...and now as of today and seeing his website - he will NOT be a
> member of the beta test team any time in the future."
>
> She does not like the fact that someone would question how she has > set something up and has decided that my exercising my freedom of > speech is grounds for preventing me from accessing the BTT.


I too was directed to your website this afternoon and while it is true you are expressing your opinion and you have every right to do so, I think you are being very combative about this issue. I think at this point you would be little else then a distraction to the process. I find it astonishing that people continue to claim that some "elite" group is holding them down all the while they publicly degrade and attack these same people that they claim are so rude and cliquish. Have you ever considered that had you made an attempted to show the courtesy and respect you wanted in return that would be a better road to travel then lashing out at them? It is not my intention to give you a lesson on the golden rule, but after reading what your website had to say this afternoon I think you may need a refresher course.


> I never once asked to join with the promise that I would actively
> pursue bugs, setting up game scenario after scenario, testing from
> dusk 'til dawn.


You were sent the application because you were on the beta team list, period. No one asked you to test from dusk till dawn or setup game scenario after game scenario, it is required that you do actively pursue bugs, there is no other reason for the beta team.


> What I asked for was access to the information that will allow me
> as a SysOp to keep my games as clean as possible. How can I
> answer a player's question if the information that may answer it
> is locked away inside of an invite-only forum? I can't.
> Therefore, my answer to the player would be "sorry, I don't know
> if that is a bug or not" and they walk away angry. Enough players > walk away angry, and TW has no player base.


EIS offers more then adequate support for sysops; the tech support forum has a plethora of information about all aspects of the game and any issues with it. If you don't have an answer it is from lack of looking, not from lack of information. There are a multitude of experienced sysops and players who actively help less experienced sysops, like yourself. All you need do is ask for the help in the form of a post in the tech support forum.


> My original response to Hekate's application e-mail was simply a
> statement of my belief that those who pay should know what is and
> is not a bug. There was no personal attack, there was no foul
> language, and there was no tone of anger. Her response: "so you
> think your just above everyone else?"


1st let me be clear, paying for a game or anything gives you no other rights then those specified at purchase. EIS is very forth coming about the beta state of the game it has never made any promises of extraordinary support. And still the support offered to owners of TWGS is very comparable and even exceeds most other software packages.

As far as your and Hekate's exchanges, I am not sure how it got to the point it is now, but I can say with certainty that yes you do believe you don't need to follow the same process everyone else does, you stated yourself you should be automatically included because you bought the game. I am sorry that is not now nor will it be the case.


> How does my statement of "It seems to me that anyone willing to
> pay for TWGS should automatically be a member of the Beta Test
> Team." become me saying I'm better than anyone else? It doesn't. > It simply says that everyone who has a registered copy of TWGS
> about 1,000 according to JP
> http://www.eisonline.com/twforum/topic. ... IC_ID=1438 )
> should know what could be a bug in their games.



As stated before there are plenty of avenues for sysops to acquire the knowledge they are looking for. Great effort has been put into the tech support that EIS offers. It is a quality offering and anyone who agrees to purchase a BETA piece of software (in the agreement) should be happy that it is so well supported. The function of the beta team is not to inform sysops of what bugs are in the current or previous versions, its function is to pursue game flaws and bring them to the attention of the programmers, If a sysop has a question who is not on the beta team they simply need to post that question in the tech support forum (or do a search as its probably already been covered) and the information is available.


> When a bug exists in the game, nobody says "that EIS wrote a crappy > game" they say "that SysOp sure runs a crappy game."


> I think players can tell the difference between a Sysop who
> actively works to offer the best playing atmosphere possibly and > a lazy Sysop who just places the game up and makes no effort to
> improve the atmosphere, be it with edits or looking for
> information to share with users about current issues.


> I'm looking for a way to get that fixed. If you want to post
> symptoms of bugs, but not necessarily their cause, I'm fine with
> that, but don't make this an all-or-nothing issue. EIS owes their > paying customers at least that much.


This is already taking place everyday, in the tech support forum. You are confusing the 2 issues. EIS has far exceeded what it "owes" its paying customers. The support offered by EIS rivals mega corporation software sites that are far less willing and eager to support their customer base then EIS is.


> If JP doesn't want to allow that information out that's one
> thing,


It is true that we don't want all of the information in the beta forum posted to the public, that's why it's a closed forum. The development forum is closed as well as a matter of fact there are numerous locked and hidden areas in the support forums, and purchasing TWGS doesn't have anything to do with access to any of them. The support that is offered is in my opinion some of the best in the field


> but as it stands now, it's just a player with a chip on her
> shoulder on a power trip.


It's not a player with a chip on her shoulder on a power trips, it's a person, like you or I who has DONATED her time to give YOU a better product. For this you have decided to reward her by publicly ridiculing her on your web site, and once again it's you right to do so. As an American your right to be rude is very secure. This one comment answers your invitation quite well, and it has been noted. Our request that you join the beta team is respectfully withdrawn. And with that the issue is closed, at least as far as I am concerned.

Enjoy your TWGS system; we hope to be able to continue to offer you a quality product in the future.

Rick Mead (teamEIS)
Project Manager
======================================================



Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS

quote:
I may be mistaken, Abraxus correct me if I am wrong. I think Abraxus was upset at how the Beta team change was handled. Then, he was further upset that there were not already plans in place to get the bug information from the beta team to the Sysops. Then, he was further upset at how he was treated by Gypsy and Hekate. I think that is the crux of his issue.

Col Sanders

"Jedi do not concern me" -The Sith


I was not upset at how the BTT change was handled. All I said was that all SysOps should already be considered part of the BTT and should be granted access to the information concerning bugs so they can keep a game clean. I WAS upset that Hekate took that and managed to make it into me saying I was better than everyone else. Any conversation with her after that was her being extremely defensive.

Gypsy jumped into that conversation and said that nobody would be locked out of the BTT due to personal problems with any member of the BTT, but then proceeded to lock me out anyway.

Someone created a new forum for SysOps, which is great, but it still doesn't provide the info I was after: bug info.

Sure someone can get the bug info and utilize it on a server, but if the SysOp also knows about the bug, they can be on guard and watch for abuse of it. That's what I'm looking for and I don't think the SysOp forum will provide enough of that.

I find it unfortunate that no member of teamEIS has been able to discuss this in an manner that is consistant and reasonable. One member jumps into defensive/accusatory mode and the other says one thing and does another.

I don't believe I've said anything that was vulgar, untrue, or in anyway a personal attack. If I had, I can understand being banned from any forum or team. To the contrary, I've posted only factual information as far as I know, doing my best to keep the tone civil, while still trying to convey my displeasure.

Was I wrong to post any of the posts about this on my web page? Perhaps. Was I wrong to defend my belief that the SysOps should have the info they need to keep their games as clean as possible? Absolutely not. Was Hekate wrong to accuse me of being better than everyone else? Yes. Was Gyspy wrong to say nobody would be locked out then proceed to lock me out? Yes.

If you didn't want me as a member of the team, simply reject the application. Don't throw accusations. Don't lie.

This all could have been avoided had 1) Hekate sent the application to all previous Beta testers (Those in the Help/About), 2) Hekate not snapped an accusation back that was unfounded, and 3) Gypsy not lied.

To me, the biggest issue here is #2. If she would have offered an explanation instead of a personal attack, I would have let it drop.

Now there are more players here and the topic has gone into further personal attacks from both teamEIS and others not involved in the initial conversation.

I don't think that this issue can be resolved. teamEIS has all the cards and to share any of them would be to admit they were wrong, something TW players are not fond of doing.

Furthermore, teamEIS is comfortable with the loss of a small number of customers in order to keep those cards.

Funny thing is, the teamEIS members with the cards are not the ones with a financial stake in the product.


[url="http://alphaprime.mine.nu"]Stardock Alpha-Prime[/url]

quote:

Was Hekate wrong to accuse me of being better than everyone else? Yes. Was Gyspy wrong to say nobody would be locked out then proceed to lock me out? Yes.



This is where I became involved, as it was very disturbing. Hekate, is too quick to attack people. Gypsy, while I apologise for calling you an Butthole the other day after reading your last posts, I must say that this is really what burned me up the most. It really does appear that you said one thing, yet did another.

-Aitvo

You keep saying I lied to you... by saying you wouldn't be locked out because of personal issues what i said was this:


I would like to also assure you that this is not an attempt to limit the beta team to "high profile" people nor is it a popularity contest. teamEIS in no way has any intention of "locking out" certain people. If your experience and qualifications merit acceptance you will be asked to join, regardless of your name or personnel issues with any member of the beta team. We only ask that you remain professional and extend the same courtesy to other members of the team that is expected of you.


To my knowledge you still haven't completed a questionaire, yet you continue to say I have "locked" you out of the beta forum. It was quite obvious after your reply that the lead beta tester was simply "a player with a chip on her shoulder" that you clearly didn't want to work with the beta team, so the request that you join was withdrawn, because we surely wouldn't want to infringe on your sensibilities.

You say this would all have been avoided had Hekate sent the request to everyone listed on the about/help well she sent them to everyone she had an email address for as far as I know. You say it could have been avoided had she not gotten defensive when you stated that you shouldn’t have to fill out the questionnaire, you should automatically be included because you own TWGS, or if I had not lied to you... Well I think it would have been avoided had you just filled out the questionnaire.

It’s all a mute point now anyway, because of the headache and numerous emails being sent to JP by 1 or 2 people the official beta team is on the verge of being dismantled and the forum removed. This was a tool to make finding bugs in the game for JP to fix quicker and more efficient, but a few of you have turned it into a status thing, and that’s not what it was intended to be. And he is quite understandably upset that it’s turned out this way. So what has been accomplished?


Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS

It looks like Gyspy did make a good effort, but there was still the issue of communication, where Abraxus had felt he was locked out, and Gypsy claimed he was not. After reading what Gypsy posted, I must say I see his point now. Nobody was locked out, there was simply a reorganization of the Beta team, and as such, new criteria to see who would be a memeber of it. Abraxus signaled he did not want to participate but refusing to fill out the questionnaire. I think his criticism started out the wrong way. What he says he wanted was access to the bug information presented in the Beta team so he can police his server. That request right there I think has been granted by establishing the Sysop Forum. It seems clear that Abraxus does not intent to "beta test", but simply wants information, which is fine, and I agree he should have access to. So it should be available in the Sysop Forum and then the issue is resolved. At least the important part to me is resolved. There still may be some lingering personality issues, but folks, we don't all have to love each other, as long as we can work together for the betterment of the game. As for JP thinking of disbanding everything, I think that would be a huge mistake... While this whole event may have been painful, it was also constructive in my view, as the location of different sets of information, whether it be bugs, or what have you is more clearly defined and, and an organization such as the Beta Team exists, which I totally support. I think Hekate will do a fine job with the technical side of the Beta Team stuff, and I hope to be able to contribute alot. Anyway, I will agree with Gypsy now, as far as I understand it, the issue looks closed. Abraxus has access to the Sysop forum, all we on the Beta Team need to do, is work with Hekate, to try and get some sort of plan put together on a schedule, or method, or format of a way to report bugs and such to sysops. These are really just analagous to procedures that any corporate IT department faces... I think we are up to the challenge.

"Jedi do not concern me" -The Sith

quote:

You keep saying I lied to you... by saying you wouldn't be locked out because of personal issues what i said was this:


I would like to also assure you that this is not an attempt to limit the beta team to "high profile" people nor is it a popularity contest. teamEIS in no way has any intention of "locking out" certain people. If your experience and qualifications merit acceptance you will be asked to join, regardless of your name or personnel issues with any member of the beta team. We only ask that you remain professional and extend the same courtesy to other members of the team that is expected of you.


To my knowledge you still haven't completed a questionaire, yet you continue to say I have "locked" you out of the beta forum. It was quite obvious after your reply that the lead beta tester was simply "a player with a chip on her shoulder" that you clearly didn't want to work with the beta team, so the request that you join was withdrawn, because we surely wouldn't want to infringe on your sensibilities.

You say this would all have been avoided had Hekate sent the request to everyone listed on the about/help well she sent them to everyone she had an email address for as far as I know. You say it could have been avoided had she not gotten defensive when you stated that you shouldn’t have to fill out the questionnaire, you should automatically be included because you own TWGS, or if I had not lied to you... Well I think it would have been avoided had you just filled out the questionnaire.

It’s all a mute point now anyway, because of the headache and numerous emails being sent to JP by 1 or 2 people the official beta team is on the verge of being dismantled and the forum removed. This was a tool to make finding bugs in the game for JP to fix quicker and more efficient, but a few of you have turned it into a status thing, and that’s not what it was intended to be. And he is quite understandably upset that it’s turned out this way. So what has been accomplished?


Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS



The lie occurs when you say nobody will be locked out, Hekate states I won't be allowed on the BTT (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tradewars ... sage/19709) and you back her, "Our request that you join the beta team is respectfully withdrawn."

I did not fill out a questionnaire after that because the Lead Beta Tester, Hekate, made it crystal clear that I was not welcome. How would filling one out after that help any? Do you honestly think that I would get fair consideration? Not a chance... Her mind was already made up.

All I did to Hekate was state an opinion. She turned it back at me in the form of a personal attack. She could have easily returned an opposite opinion without the personal attack, but she chose not to.

I find it hard to believe that JP is that upset over this. He's made no effort to verify if any of this is true, at least not with me.

Maybe it wasn't intended to be a status thing, but when a no name questions a big name and the big name gets pissy for no real reason, it's clearly evident that there is still an upper-class and a lower-class in the TW universe. I guess the upper-class simply isn't used to the lower-class fighting back so hard.


[url="http://alphaprime.mine.nu"]Stardock Alpha-Prime[/url]

Oh how nothing ever changes.

Its all about the few in power trying to keep it that way.

The funny thing is you state that the beta testers recieved an email. Its funny that I a former beta tester AND game op never got an invitation to the new beta team.

I have always provided the bug information directly to JP as I don't trust anyone when it comes to bugs, b/c I have seen some exploitation of bug use.

The old beta team was unorganized and that is why I personally quit testing the game.

If you want to state that you send emails to all the testers then you better make sure you do what you say. Help us all if you don't, which wouldn't be the first time.

Visit The Deep South
Telnet://thedeepsouth.yi.org:23
http://thedeepsouth.cjb.net/

quote:
I may be mistaken, Abraxus correct me if I am wrong. I think Abraxus was upset at how the Beta team change was handled. Then, he was further upset that there were not already plans in place to get the bug information from the beta team to the Sysops. Then, he was further upset at how he was treated by Gypsy and Hekate. I think that is the crux of his issue.

Col Sanders

"Jedi do not concern me" -The Sith


But you get more flys with honey then vinagar. Insulting someone just because "Your the customer" is not the way to handle issues or problems. Plus I don't think he is the only customer.

~~LordLythus~~

quote:
The lie occurs when you say nobody will be locked out, Hekate states I won't be allowed on the BTT (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tradewars ... sage/19709) and you back her, "Our request that you join the beta team is respectfully withdrawn."



The simple fact of the matter is the process didn't keep you off the BETA team, you acting like a jerk did. Had you filled out the questionnaire and simply sent it back in you would have be on the beta team. Your reaction and subsequent actions to the invitation are the reasons you aren't on the team.

You still don't get it, you want to continue the arguing. What you are basically doing is akin to bitching cause you don't have happiness and it was guaranteed to you in the constitution. Well I got news for you happiness wasn't guaranteed, the pursuit of it was. If you re-read my email to you, and have even a grade 1 reading comprehension you will see that. The process didn't attempt to keep you off the beta team, YOU WERE ASKED TO JOIN, you choose not to pursue happiness, and now cause you are unhappy you want to blame someone besides yourself.


quote:
I did not fill out a questionnaire after that because the Lead Beta Tester, Hekate, made it crystal clear that I was not welcome. How would filling one out after that help any? Do you honestly think that I would get fair consideration? Not a chance... Her mind was already made up.



This is true, you are not welcome now. You have shown that you have no intention of helping the beta team out, refused to follow team procedures, you have made backhanded remarks about the person running the team and continue to insult her character (see above), called me a liar to suit your needs, continually state that the people on the BETA team are elitist (thats what you are saying right? that only the "high class" players are able to join?) does that sound like a person that would make a good team member?

Membership on the Beta team is not guaranteed, application to it is. You weren't, and still aren't, being stopped from joining the BETA team because of your name of personal issues with the BETA team again, YOU WERE ASKED TO JOIN.


quote:
All I did to Hekate was state an opinion. She turned it back at me in the form of a personal attack. She could have easily returned an opposite opinion without the personal attack, but she chose not to.



She asked if you thought you were better then everyone else since you refused to fill out the questionnaire, and at the end of that reply she still told you to fill out the questionnaire. You obviosly do think you are better then the other BETA team members, many of which also own TWGS and all of which filled out the questionaire. You were looking for an excuse to drag this all to this level and she gave you one, the dreaded "you think you are better then everyone else" personal attack. I got news for you the insults you have directed at her character just in this post alone are worse then the true statement she made.


quote:
I find it hard to believe that JP is that upset over this. He's made no effort to verify if any of this is true, at least not with me.


Maybe since you are a TWGS owner you think you should have access to the private team areas on the site to? Believe what you want, the reason he is going to dismantle the beta team has nothing to do with your not getting on the BETA team, it has to do with repeatedly being disturbed and bothered about the subject from a person who has no involvement in it. What does he need to verify with you? That you aren't on the BETA team? That you aren't going to be? He already knew that.


quote:
Maybe it wasn't intended to be a status thing, but when a no name questions a big name and the big name gets pissy for no real reason, it's clearly evident that there is still an upper-class and a lower-class in the TW universe. I guess the upper-class simply isn't used to the lower-class fighting back so hard.



Look guy, I am sorry you were unpopular in school... I am sorry you didn't get to marry the prom queen... I am sorry you were never invited to any of the cool kid's parties... I am sorry you are a nameless face in the things you do. But you know what? It's not my fault you are a low class person or player, that’s your fault.



Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS