RexxCrow - Also as Harley said, don't take any of the posts as flaming. It is just that for a simple game, there are a lot of things to learn. It appears pretty simple just looking at the commands and when using a helper that does a lot of the work such as PPTing or simple cashing for reds. In reality, we can know all of the commands and still not be considered a good player.

You said something about people with several years of experience considering themselves newbies, but that is because the more we learn, the more we realize that we really weren't that knowledgable about the game. Someone always seems to do something that makes you wonder how they did what they did - I had a player escape my ptorp hit in an unlimited game - I was slow getting into the sector and he evidently exited the game and came back in and was able to xport away before I hit him (I had an IG on my ship). I was not aware that you could do that - vaguely remember reading something about it but did not know for sure.

[edit] Almost forgot - the player that escaped the ptorp, told me how he did it.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Ok ok, thats correct you would want to include all of FedSpace as part of your gridding to have a good setup on the MSL's, just as you would want to grid several sectors out around Sol, so as to keep other players from warping over your grid, (otherwise they might as well colo from their home sector as they are no longer saving on fuel.) For me I just automatically associate FedSpace as being akin to the MSL's, which I believe I have already elaborated on prior to this post, anyways. Hence gridding the MLS's w/o including FedSpace is pointless in itself.

" Before you leave, the salesperson reminds you to move the ship out of FedSpace as soon as possible, since the Feds will repossess any unmanned ships left there overnight (no littering!)"
That comment without further explantation is meaningless to a new player, as they are not yet familiar with terms, times, and such.

Now, I am not to sure how much more plain one has to make it about planets being parked in the MSLs. The MSLs are not the only way to get to Dock or Terra, they are paths as documented above.
Again were is this pointed out to players within the game?

With do respect to TW-Cabal and Traitor, he nor his site are not in partnership with EIS. As well his site is not mentioned within the contents of the game or game files. Personally for me it was a few months before I even hear mention of his site. His site is outstanding and that is what EIS itself really needs to do, i.e. if you visit the home page on this site all the links have remained under construction for how long 2-years or so? What is up with that?

Rexx, I don't know what to tell you except that this game is something that you either have the desire to learn or you don't. Talking to players is how I learned about a lot of things including tw-cabal the first time. If you aren't playing with newbies or people who are complete pains, they will help you out with locations for information. You have also said this game is not that complex, therefore I would assume that a newbie should not take long to figure it out? (yes I disagree with that).

As far as TW-Cabal not being in partership with EIS, that is true, but many programming books are also not in partership with Microsoft and they provide more/better information than MS does. I do agree the links on EIS should be updated and since TW-Cabal seems to be the best information site around, one of those links needs to point there.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

quote:Originally posted by Promethius

Rexx, I don't know what to tell you except that this game is something that you either have the desire to learn or you don't.

I think this statement is the defnining one here. Most of us players who have played "2-10" years as rexx put it, spent quite a good ammount of times perfecting our "tricks". And how did we learn them? Most of us learned by trial and error. You ask any great player when did they learn the most in the game, and most i'd say would say from dieing. Dieing and losing stuff is part of the game. Unless a friend brought us to the game we've all lost a ship in fed, blind warped, etc etc... thats how you learn.

So the bottom line truly is [and in the past people seemed to have more patience] if you have the desire to learn you'll learn by trial and error. Hell its even easier today since in most games most people will tell you what you need to know if you ask.

-LT

lol

I found the Cabal before I had ever found EIS most all the info I have ever needed about this game is there.

Rexx, your whining about something that does not exist there is no lack of information in the TW community if you want to learn something you just need to look for it just like anything else in this world if you want to know about cars you need look for the information to teach you about cars I’m not completely sure but I think they start teaching this in the 4th grade by using an encyclopedia to do research to write papers just now days we have a different tool called the internet and Google when I fist started playing that’s what I did researched and read all the info I could. The only tricks that are withheld from the general TW community are bugs and I feel it should be that way so that like the AI planet framing bug they don’t get used by every low life cheating player out there.

As for changing the game lets make a comparison lets say you like to play Risk a simple board game based on strategy and someone comes a long and changes the rules of the game so now it’s a cross between D&D and Risk what fun would that be for the person who likes to play Risk and also after changing it its no longer really Risk its become something completely different in reality Tradewars is a lot like Risk if your were to make some of the changes you are asking for it would no longer be Tradewars.

Ok,
quote:Originally posted by RexxCrow
Well, it seems that you did not get the drift of my statement. The reason they are "tricks" is because there is no definitive player documentation available for new players, thus what is really just simply the normal way to play the game now becomes "tricks". This is because the only way to find out (other then being told by another player) the pros and cons of a common command is a given situation is to take a chance and test it yourself. This leaves new players to become victims of happenstance. Learning the game is one thing, realizing the consquences of an unfamiliar command and its action as a result of having no prior (or very limited/outdated) guidance available is another.

Heh, imagine how learning this game was before I started my site.

Every game I've ever learned how to play had some kind of learning curve. TW happens to have a very steep learning curve. Most new or returning players assume that since this is a simple text based game, that learning it would also be simple. That is not the case, and people who don't figure that out end up quitting or losing.
quote:
Originally posted by RexxCrow
No, see you are listening to what I am saying but you are not hearing me. Ok look perfect example there is nothing that says when you purchase a ship at dock and that if extern occurs while you are doing this that ship will be repossed, you are left to learn that the hard way. There is nothing telling you that you should not build a planet in open space. There is nothing defining what is considered open-space, bubbles, dead-ends, one-ways, backdoors, black-holes, etc. There is nothing telling you that you should ZTM or what ZTM means, does, or is used for.

There is no documention telling you to not leave planets in the MSL's during extern or they will be penalized; hell, there is no documention even telling you what the MSL's are or how to find them! As well there is no warning given that extern is about to occur or even what time that it occur, no reminder nothing, all of that you are also left on your own to figure out. These are all things I feel are very relevant facts and should be explained in detail to new players. The only warning you get througout the game is the armament and towing warning when parking in FedSpace to logoff.

True, there isn't anything in the game itself that explains those. That's why I made my site. Most of that information IS on tw-cabal. You just have to dig, and draw inferences from the other data on the site. And, more importantly, you have to ask other players. MOST players are happy to answer any questions.
quote:
Originally posted by RexxCrow
You, Harley take advantage of this information because this type of information has long been trivial to you. Learning the game is about learning actual strategy now about learning the basic commands and actions of the game. If it was not for Traitor's site, the newer players of this game would be permanently crippled!

Of all the people on this board to say that too, I can't believe you picked Harley. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. He learned almost everything he knows about TW on his own, or from other players, just like I did. If you are willing to put the work in, you can become an elite without ever looking at my site.
quote:
Originally posted by RexxCrow
I find it sad that those that have been around for a while, sit around talking about how there are no more good players, new players poss no challange, then wonder why that is. I also find it sad that players sit around chatting about how they have been playing for 2-10 years and still consider themselves to be a newbian, the game is not really that complex. It is only maintainted as such do to the lack of availability of basic gaming information to the average player.

I find it sad that people can't be bothered to learn on their own. I find it sad that new players fail to recognize how complex this game is. If it's "not really that complex" then why haven't you mastered it already? You have MORE access to information than either me or Harley (Kemper3) ever had while we were learning the game. We asked questions and we experimented. We died a lot. I just happened to write most of the stuff I learned down.
quote:
Originally posted by RexxCrow
You are not trying to flame me, yet you make statements such as: "It seems like it is always those who don't understand the game in it's current form who think it needs to be changed. Why is that?" Hey, in the future don't bother doing me any favors, my friend.

The game looks and feels a lot like it did 10-15 years ago. And for the most part, it still is the same game. What's changed is that after 10-15 years, people have refined the tactics and strategy to the point where if you aren't playing at that level, you will lose to those that do. We can show you the door, but you have to choose to go through it.
quote:
Originally posted by RexxCrow
So what are you saying cause I disagree with you about the use of MSL's that I "do not know the game"? Personally I feel that this game is suffering largely do to you, JP looks to you for the majority of his ideas and you only want to swear by TW just has it is now and has been since is conception. You have learned it they way it is now, you are good at it the way it is now, and you want to stay with it the way it is now. So what about other people that come along with new ideas and suggestings? Hey, what do they know anyways!

Well, I don't know about Harley, but I welcome fresh ideas. However, I also know that some ideas are very bad. If the person making the suggestion doesn't have a clear sense of game balance then what they percive as a minor change can have a huge impact. I've been through several of those 'bad ideas' (things that got changed, and WHOOPS! got changed again) and I firmly believe that no changes should be made without very careful consideration by the community.
quote:
Originally posted by RexxCrow
Afterall, why else would the Feds keep them cleared, this serves as a balance for all the players in the game, otherwise you just could lockup the game by dumping all kinds of stuff into the sectors to keep them the MSL's along with FedSpace pretty much all to yourself.

Um...actually, it's the opposite. You fill the sectors AROUND the MSL's and Fed. You want to keep your enemies trapped in Fed and the MSL's and you want to have the REST of the universe to yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by RexxCrow
With do respect to TW-Cabal and Traitor, he nor his site are not in partnership with EIS. As well his site is not mentioned within the contents of the game or game files. Personally for me it was a few months before I even hear mention of his site. His site is outstanding and that is what EIS itself really needs to do, i.e. if you visit the home page on this site all the links have remained under construction for how long 2-years or so? What is up with that?
[snarky response]
Well, it IS called The Cabal's SECRET Hideout. [:D]
[/snarky response]

First off, EIS is a one man operation. It's not like Blizzard, there are no tech writers on staff at EIS. It's ONE person, and maybe a few UNPAID volunteers. Second, http://www.tw-cabal.com is a fansite. I don't get paid for it. I don't get anything out of it but work, more work, and some small measure of pride. I pay for it out of pocket, I don't have ads nor do I take donations. I don't have a forum. EIS is my site's forum as far as I'm concerned. I have talked to JP about doing a few projects, and I even have a few started. But real life keeps getting in the way, and unless I have a reason to make it higher priority, (i.e. $$) those will be completed as I have time.

However, there is nothing stopping you from doing the same. Ultimately, that's how tw-cabal got it's start. I got pissed off that some elite-hard-ass-beeyatch (Hekate, aka Pheo6e) kicked my corps teeth in during our first encounter. Like all n00bs, I whined over Fed at her. She said something like "you can learn, or you can whine". I complained that there were no on-line resources around to learn from. She said, in classic Hekky form, "Shrug. Then DO something about it." Heh.

I am always open to submissions too. If you want something to go up on tw-cabal, post it here, we'll pick it apart, and eventually add it.

I've got an update in the works now, but R/L is giving me fits, so no time to really work on it at home except on the weekends. Was gonna post something this weekend, but then my mom got ticker problems, and I had to fly out of town (she all bettah now, mostly) and then... shrug. You get the idea.

If you think JP's got it any better... heh.

First off I am not whinning. I am engaging in a valid discussion if you think otherwise, then allow me to clarify. Whining would be if I was just making opinionative statements based on something that had happened to me. Nothing has happened to me, I am not making opinionative statements. Ergo I am not whining. What I am doing is engaging in a discussion where as I am offering causes and effects and probable and respectable solutions.

My suggestions would not turn TW into Risk, D&D, AD&D, Magica or whatever the hell warped anology you are trying to point out. What it would do it make a game of TW better by implementing added options, notice the word OPTIONS, now please for the love of goodness, truly stop and try to contemplate it's meaning. Thank you.

Ok, so what you are saying is that the game should be left alone and new players should continue to depend on other players to learn the basic form of play. So hence, all new players will thereby become a level player as compaired to the player they are learning from. So if I hook up with Kemper I am all set, yet if I hook up with anybody else I will never be able to compete at the level of that other new player learing everything from Kemper. That to me is just stupid and dumb. The information is there, it is known, it should be made openly available to all players alike. There is no valid reason for it to be made a secret.

Perfect example, why is it when TW first came nobody new what it was they were suppose to actually do within the game? They only had very limited knowledge about planets, ships, aliens, space exploration, etc. Because there was nothing telling them about this. The majority of players were not even aware of many things within the game. There was absolutely no guidance for them, other then other players.

No the game is not complex, it is just random and adaptable to help obtain a certain effect. What makes the game complex is the fact that it is rittled with bugs that make the many of the basic game actions useless. Which in reality makes the game limited in its options, which is why it then becomes complex.

Traitor, are you not also a one man band? You seem to be doing just fine to me.

Rexx, you are beginning to remind me a lot of another user that posted some time back with the initials SGO.

I am curious, however as to the bugs you are talking about that make many of the basic game actions useless. In one sentence you say "the game is not complex" and the following sentence "What makes the game complex". I fail to comprehend how limited options = becoming more complex.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Shoot Prome, I was thinking of someone else.

Me too Prome, thinking of someone else.



(some call it whine, some call it a valid discussion)

REXX - Have you ever read the in game help? I personally haven't ever read the whole thing, but I am under the impression that it could do with a serious updating. Please feel free to do so and we can see if John will add it to the game. Assuming it is accurate and contains all the information that you think players should have, that should solve that problem. I am willing to do some basic content editting on whatever you come up for in regards to accuracy.

I do not consider bugs apart of the intented game play do you? They are meant to be fixed when they are found, not left in the game until a new major version edit comes out, i.e. the photon bug,the FO bug, the message notification bug, the alien planet bug.

These bugs take away your available options so thus the game becomes complex because if the opposing player knows about these bugs, they easily be exploited. So that leaves you to scratch you head, because you are now defenseless when going against such exploits. Then what you going to do, come here and post about it so that people can mock them for making such a claim, as it can't be proven anyways, since even the capture files are also easily manipulable.

Oh yea there we go, lets all start compairing me to others, unscrupulous.

I have already started such a project. Although nobody has been very willing to assist me. Only poke fun at me... that is no suprise however as most are unfamiliar with the full functions of the editors anyways.

Also another project I have been working on is reworking all of the ANSI screens, I am almost finished with those, however I ran into a problem when running them through SWATH, seems it does not like messing with ASCII, so I am going to have to do a final touchup on them all. I figure they should be GTG, within a week, hopefully. I have been waiting for JP to confirm the ownership of TW, but have not heard back from him yet.

If you are talking about the photoning of fed, that was fixed sometime back. The aliens filling planets I would have to agree that it is a bug, but then so was megarob at one time from what I understand.

The message notification and FO? bug, I am not sure what you are talking about there. If someone sees something they feel is a bug in the game, it is usually brought out in the forums. The photoning of Fed was brought out - people then duplicated it and it was fixed.

Ok, comparing you to SGO might not have been fair, but you show the same sort of insistence.

Now for poking fun at you - no. Trying to see your point of view and discussing where that would take the game and disagreeing with you - yes. You have brought up some valid points and some I feel are questionable in their effects on the game.

The ANSI screens are modified in some games and I doubt if you run into any problems unless you added something that would confuse ownership of the software.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

quote:Originally posted by RexxCrow

I do not consider bugs apart of the intented game play do you? They are meant to be fixed when they are found, not left in the game until a new major version edit comes out, i.e. the photon bug,the FO bug, the message notification bug, the alien planet bug.


Photon bug, FO bug, message notification bug? I'm not familiar with any of these.

quote:
These bugs take away your available options so thus the game becomes complex because if the opposing player knows about these bugs, they easily be exploited. So that leaves you to scratch you head, because you are now defenseless when going against such exploits. Then what you going to do, come here and post about it so that people can mock them for making such a claim, as it can't be proven anyways, since even the capture files are also easily manipulable.


You make a mistake here. People are generally not mocked when they ask about a potential bug. What normally happens, though, is someone comes in here and starts claiming "So and so is cheating, he is using a bug." At which point it turns into an argument and then a flame war regarding whether or not that person is using a bug... or sometimes as to whether or not a certain thing is a bug.

quote:
I have already started such a project. Although nobody has been very willing to assist me. Only poke fun at me... that is no suprise however as most are unfamiliar with the full functions of the editors anyways.


When you give accurate help, no one makes fun of you for it. When you want to make changes, people might disagree. You need to realize that just because you think something is a good idea doesn't make it so. Even if it IS a good idea, there will still be people who disagree. However, in regards to adding accurate, detailed documentation to the game, I don't think anyone is justified in making fun of you. However, there have been projects to do just that for longer than I've been playing this game, and they always fail when the authors realize the scope of what they're trying to do. I sincerely hope you achieve success in it, but I am going to remain skeptical until I actually see it.

quote:
Also another project I have been working on is reworking all of the ANSI screens, I am almost finished with those, however I ran into a problem when running them through SWATH, seems it does not like messing with ASCII, so I am going to have to do a final touchup on them all. I figure they should be GTG, within a week, hopefully. I have been waiting for JP to confirm the ownership of TW, but have not heard back from him yet.[/beige]


Just out of curiosity, why are you reworking the ansi screens?

..
I'm going to post my reply someplace else