I have several things to address so either read or stop now. I know my opinion will not count for much, but here it is anyway.

1. EIS keeps referring to these few elite players as not being of much importance. This begs me to ask you: Who is giving you input? If those top 25 players dont really matter, who does? You say you took people's opinions into consideration, yet you wont say who gave you input. Can you possibly clarify who is more qualified to give input than those top 25 players?

2. Suppose the above is true and you guys have taken massive amounts of responses from players who are fully FOR these changes. What is gonna be the result of you forcing changes on those top 25? I can see ALL of the top servers closing down because of a lack of interest in the evolved game by the sysops (those same elite that dont really matter). Why would you make unpopular decisions without listening to the people who actually bought the software? Many of these people who are siding with you guys will NOT be around in a year whether or not you change things. Why would they carry more weight than someone like CK who has been here for years?

3. What do the changes do that is gonna increase popularity? How is making you unable to communicate from certain prompts gonna bring players back to the game? You asked about how many servers have a user base of 25 players. I agree there are not many, but compare the number of places you can play at now with the number you could play at when there were servers with many players. I would bet there were less places to play then than there are now.

4. I agree that scripting has completely changed the game, but how do you decide what is ok to script and what is not ok? I, for one, will NEVER play in a game again where i have to ppt by hand. So, in the future is it gonna be ok to ppt with a script, but not bwarp attack?

Finally, the bottom line is this. People today are not gonna come to TW in droves no matter what changes you make to basic game play. Its' time has passed and there will probably never be games with 200 people in them again. When I used to play TW when I was a kid it was because it was cooler than any game out there. Now, a text based game will never fill that role. Bottom line is that the changes you guys have made (in spite of the protests from the CURRENT most faithful people playing the game) will have no impact on helping the game in popularity and will do nothing to keep those newbs you are trying to appease from leaving anyway (Most of these people who are speaking out in the forums dont know what most of the changes do anyway). Nor will it bring those OG's back to the game. IMO it will only drive more people away.

quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector


I have several things to address so either read or stop now. I know my opinion will not count for much, but here it is anyway.

1. EIS keeps referring to these few elite players as not being of much importance. This begs me to ask you: Who is giving you input? If those top 25 players don't really matter, who does? You say you took people's opinions into consideration, yet you won't say who gave you input. Can you possibly clarify who is more qualified to give input than those top 25 players?

No one has ever said the few "elite" players were not important, nor did anyone say their opinions were not important. I believe they over estimated their importance and when they realized that things were changing regardless, instead of trying to have input into the changes they took the approach of, "any change to game play is bad and you suck for doing it". As far as who has input and who doesn't, and who they are I can tell you that most are former players/sysops/gameops but a few are current players of these 25 you are referring too, unless JP is just lying and I have known the man for almost 8 years and nothing in that time has given me any reason to doubt when he tells me he received an email from so and so that he did. Now if these people would rather have their input anonymously that's up to them.

quote:2. Suppose the above is true and you guys have taken massive amounts of responses from players who are fully FOR these changes. What is going to be the result of you forcing changes on those top 25? I can see ALL of the top servers closing down because of a lack of interest in the evolved game by the sysops (those same elite that don't really matter). Why would you make unpopular decisions without listening to the people who actually bought the software? Many of these people who are siding with you guys will NOT be around in a year whether or not you change things. Why would they carry more weight than someone like CK who has been here for years?


I certainly would hate to see all of the top servers for v3 close down, but I am confident it won't happen. There will still be plenty of places to find a Trade Wars game even after the final version is released. The sheer number of TWGS out there is unbelievable and when Jumpgate is finished in a month or so people are going to realize that the amount of systems you are talking about are a very small percentage of the TWGS out there.

I don't think JP is making overall bad decisions, and certainly he isn't making any without listening to the people who bought the software, quite the contrary, if anyone has a stronger voice its those that have shelled out the money to support Trade Wars. That being said, this is not a battle where sides should be drawn, it's been decided that Trade Wars 2002 v3 will return to its roots before final release, those roots being a Good vs. Evil strategy game that more resembles chess then checkers. This goal has been stated many times and those that want to help towards that goal are welcome to, those that have the feeling that any fixes towards that goal are unnecessary or inherently wrong, the opinion is noted and once again the fixes are going in.

quote:3. What do the changes do that is going to increase popularity? How is making you unable to communicate from certain prompts going to bring players back to the game? You asked about how many servers have a user base of 25 players. I agree there are not many, but compare the number of places you can play at now with the number you could play at when there were servers with many players. I would bet there were less places to play then than there are now.

These fixes aren't intended to widen the fan base, they are as stated above and many times to release a final version that meets JP's goal.

quote:4. I agree that scripting has completely changed the game, but how do you decide what is ok to script and what is not ok? I, for one, will NEVER play in a game again where I have to ppt by hand. So, in the future is it going to be ok to ppt with a script, but not bwarp attack?

I don't think any scripts will be removed or are even being attempted to from v3 and certainly not mundane things like PPT or colonizing, what is being done is trying to even out the difference between connections. The prompt thing boggles my mind that people have latched onto this as some sort of attempted dagger towards script users, its really just this; There are a great deal of fixes coming before the final release and they are done in stages, the globals were being fixed and this fix to non-interactive prompts (which was intended to be optional, and will be) was in the same area of the code that was already being worked on and was included with this group of releases. The interactive/non-interactive prompt fix is a miniscule part of the over all fixes that are coming to achieve the previously stated goal.

quote:Finally, the bottom line is this. People today are not going to come to TW in droves no matter what changes you make to basic game play. Its' time has passed and there will probably never be games with 200 people in them again. When I used to play TW when I was a kid it was because it was cooler than any game out there. Now, a text based game will never fill that role. Bottom line is that the changes you guys have made (in spite of the protests from the CURRENT most faithful people playing the game) will have no impact on helping the game in popularity and will do nothing to keep those newbs you are trying to appease from leaving anyway (Most of these people who are speaking out in the forums don't know what most of the changes do anyway). Nor will it bring those OG's back to the game. IMO it will only drive more people away.

No one thinks that people will come to v3 in droves no matter what is done, meaning if it's fixed to be a more classic Trade Wars game, or if it's left as is. That is the primary reason for JP's decision to return the version to its roots. I am not sure where the idea came from that JP is trying to add new players to v3, I know I have stated over and over again his desire was not to try and get massive amounts of new players into v3.

My 1 bottom line is this, I don't want to see anyone leave (well almost anyone [:D]), I no reservations about the fact that I agree with JP on getting the game back to it's multiplayer evil vs. good roots. I also happen to think that Trade Wars IS still the coolest game out there, I know it's the only one I still play that I own from 15 years ago. I have a shelf full of big time graphic games that are less then 6 months old that haven't been played in 2 or over a year old that haven't been played in recent memory, I am not alone in this. So using your above statement, if we have to lose a few people that don't think that Trade Wars is the best game of all time to satisfy a few that do, I say go with the people that love the game as a whole and not just the last 2 years of it.

Thank you BC for your constructive comments I look forward to seeing more from you.

quote:
As far as who has input and who doesn't, and who they are I can tell you that most are former players/sysops/gameops


so your saying he receives most of his input from "has-beens" and sysops....looks like he would want the majority of input to come form active players - not this group you mentioned- just my opinion - flame away

quote:Originally posted by big12ozHOG

quote:
As far as who has input and who doesn't, and who they are I can tell you that most are former players/sysops/gameops


so your saying he receives most of his input from "has-beens" and sysops....looks like he would want the majority of input to come form active players - not this group you mentioned- just my opinion - flame away


This is the TWGS SysOp / GameOp Forum so you don't have to worry about being flamed. In response to your comment I suggest you read the sticky topic posted at the top of this forum, then come back here and re-read the 2nd part of my reply above, because it answers this comment, and then the next time you post in this forum include the name and system you are registered as a SysOp / GameOp.

one more comment, for those of you that think that no one at EIS cares about "current players" or is just trying to kill scripting, currently JP is working with a current scripting author on putting in place special globals specifically for his scripts to interact more efficiently with the game. Does this sound like he is trying to kill scripts? I am not going to post the name because like those people that don't want to come forward and acknowledge they asked for these fixes for the game this person may also have some reason he doesn't want it publicly known. Suffice to say that even though there are daily posts about how EIS is trying to kill scripting or trying to run off these "elite" players it couldn't be further from the truth, in fact JP is working extra hard to try and please as many as possible.

Well the way I think it is JP has to listen to everyone, and then decide what is best for the game. 25 players is a small group next to the bulk of other Players and GameOps out there. With the same argument why should JP listen to just 25 people and not the rest? Still he can take into consideration what the 25 people have said. Apparently he must have listened to some peope as .57 came out really fast to address the problems people had with .56, which I guessed/predicted that it would do in my previous posts about .56 before. But then what do I know, I'm just a newbie.

Yes, Orion, listen to everyone, but I believe that those top 25 should have a bit more input in changes as they WILL be here in a year. Many of the newer players will NOT be in a year no matter what is done. TW is a game that you have to LOVE to continue to play with the many different options of multiplayer games out. I dont think this will necessarily drive all of those top 25 players out, but already I have heard retirement talk from a few people who have had a huge impact on TW. That part scares me.

How do you know that the newbies will be disposable players in a year? Also how can you say what they think should not be considered. Maybe they can contribute something that would help keep newbies staying in the game. I am a newbie and I am still playing the game despite being outfigged, outcashed, and outcolonized in many games I played in. I think it has been a year or so since I started playing again, but I do not have the exact date. Yes I do love the game and want to learn more about it.

Keep in mind that I do not speak for EIS, but I can guess what they are trying to do. So take this paragraph with a grain of salt as I try to deduce what EIS is doing. While the 25 players may know more than the newbies about the game, JP is trying to please a majority of people. Statistically the newbies are more than the experts. Also remember that EIS has to sell registrations to make money, and the newbies are a potential to register TWGS to run their own servers or play on their own private servers. Without new registrations, how can EIS make money? The 25 experts no doubt already registered TWGS to test scripts out on and such. EIS can make no more money off them unless they released new plug-ins that need registration or offered a new feature of TWGS that needs registration. So try and see it from JP's point of view, he has to cater to the market that will buy his product, in order to sell more of it. That market is of course people who are mostly new to TWGS and/or have not registered it before. If EIS loses 25 experts, they will at least gain 25 more newbies registering TWGS. Newbies have the potential to become experts given the right training, teachers/mentors, and experience.

I am sure that the experts have helped a lot in finding bugs in the game, etc. Those bugs have been addressed, but the changes made to address those bugs have changed the way some things work in the game. So they cannot have their cake and eat it too. I am sure JP is doing his best to fix the bugs and try to keep the game playable as it was previously as much as possible. The fact that .57 was released so soon after .56 shows that he is listening to the experts complaining and making changes as needed.

So this shows that JP is listening to both newbies and experts alike.

EIS is not forcing the experts to retire, that is 100% the decision of the experts. They can still play in .55 servers and not have to deal with .56 or .57 at all. I am sure that many GameOps that do not like .56/.57 changes and will stick with .55 and advertise that fact.

Yes it scares me too that the 25 experts who contributed a lot to the game talk about retiring. I know that they can adapt to the new changes and rewrite scripts to work with the new changes, but they would rather quit than change? I am trying to figure the logic of it all out here, as it does not make sense to me. I have to change a lot of what I thought the game was like, and I have to change for a lot of other stuff to start playing better. Now I have to learn the changes in .56/.57 and how I can adapt to the changes. I do not see it as a big deal, all part of the learning process. No disrespect meant to the 25 experts of course.

Changes happens in everyday life. I am a computer expert, I've studied computers for the past twenty years. I have been a beta tester to Microsoft and helped find bugs in their programs. If I would say to Microsoft "Quit changing your framework and the way your operating system works, or I will retire." do you think they would go back to the way a previous operating system or framework worked? What if I got 24 other experts saying the same thing? What if I got 100,000 experts saying this? Unlike Microsoft, EIS has not changed Tradewars that drastically as Windows has changed, nor has EIS charged money for upgrades like Microsoft has. So in the computer field I have to learn to change and learn all over again. Because I did not learn Dotnet, my skills are no longer marketable as a programmer to most organizations. I learned a little bit, but I decided to help out with family issues, and deal with my illnesses than take the time to learn Dotnet. Because I did not change, I lost my job. I was told I did not live up to my potential as a programmer and that my services were no longer required. The computer jobs are going to India, so I have to change again and learn something new. I am going to college to learn business management, which also deals with change.

So change happens and it is unavoidable.

I think after much discussion it is fairly obvious what EIS is trying to do.

Gypsy has stated "it's been decided that Trade Wars 2002 v3 will return to its roots before final release, those roots being a Good vs. Evil strategy game that more resembles chess then checkers." From what i can tell, the input that they receive from the anonymous players/sysops is input on how best to modify the current version to reach that goal.

From all 'verbal' indicators that we have received from EIS, the changes are driven by the vision for the game, not by the desire to expand the market (with respect to v3.xx). Quite frankly, I think EIS is quite aware that the market for v3 will not grow or shrink appreciably regardless of the changes they make to this version. Shrug.

So, I have to disagree with you here Orion. I don't think EIS is trying to cater to the newbies specifically. Don't get me wrong tho - I think the changes WILL help newbies, but I doubt that is the end goal. The main dispute if you wish to call it that was basically a difference in opinion as to the qualifications of the people suggesting the specific implementations for change.

Yes, Gypsy. I do have a registered and paid for version of TWGS and the Gold add-on. No, I do not put it out publicly, I use it solely for testing theories, analyzing edits, and testing scripts.

Orion, you missed my point. Yes, consider what newbs think but I think gearing changes to them is a mistake as MOST of the newbs will not be around in a year no matter what. These 25 people I am referring to will be here. I dont think you TRULY grasp all that goes into the game for these type players. While I in no way consider myself an expert at TW or one of the better players out there, let me tell you my daily routine.

I teach so I check in on games by telnetting out during the day. While I cant play most times I can take a good look at what is going on and therefore call corpies during passing periods to get them to take care of stuff if need be. I go home at lunch so I can do whatever needs to be done on the game. After practice I head home and usually spend about two hours doing TW related stuff (working on scripts, messing with my server, visiting with Alexio aboiut possible scripts, etc). I then spend some time with my wife when she arrives home from work and once she goes to bed I head back to the computer to check on games. If tern is at midnight I am usually awake for that so that I dont miss something. I go to bed with the expectation of receiving a call from my brother who usually pulls late night duty on most games. I wake up in the morning and head to the computer to make sure nothing has happened. I get ready for work and check one last time. I then repeat the process. This by no means is EVERYDAY, but is most days. AND this is for regular games, not tournies. The time intensifies when tourneys are going on. How many newbs can say they invest that much time in the game? Furthermore, there are LOTS of peeps who invest WAY more than I do in the game. Why should their opinion not count more than a newb? Get my drift?

Finally, for you to be playing for a year and NOT be using the advanced scripts that are available and NOT understand the impact of removing messages from certain prompts make me believe you dont invest nearly the time or energy that the elites do. That is why they are up in arms about changes that dont cater to what they think the game should be like.

quote:Originally posted by Didaskalos

I think after much discussion it is fairly obvious what EIS is trying to do.

Gypsy has stated "it's been decided that Trade Wars 2002 v3 will return to its roots before final release, those roots being a Good vs. Evil strategy game that more resembles chess then checkers." From what i can tell, the input that they receive from the anonymous players/sysops is input on how best to modify the current version to reach that goal.

From all 'verbal' indicators that we have received from EIS, the changes are driven by the vision for the game, not by the desire to expand the market (with respect to v3.xx). Quite frankly, I think EIS is quite aware that the market for v3 will not grow or shrink appreciably regardless of the changes they make to this version. Shrug.

So, I have to disagree with you here Orion. I don't think EIS is trying to cater to the newbies specifically. Don't get me wrong tho - I think the changes WILL help newbies, but I doubt that is the end goal. The main dispute if you wish to call it that was basically a difference in opinion as to the qualifications of the people suggesting the specific implementations for change.



You nailed it, this is exactly the plan.

It's not about qualifications though, JP is not taking advise from some 2 month players and disregarding that of a 3 year vet, it is that some people don't want to see it fixed in this direction, so they have no relevant input, their qualifications have no bearing.

maybe the confusion was due to the fact some people thought it was an IF, when really was/is a HOW. The fixes to more classic game play ARE coming, no one around it so those opinions like "just fix the current bugs and don't change anything else", "if it ain't broke don't fix it", "these changes will ruin the way the game is played today", ect., ect. are invalid because the fact of the matter in the view of the owner of the game it is broke, and ruining the way the game is played today isn't as important as returning to the way the game is SUPPOSE to be played. So when these options are dismissed whether it be by "elite" players or newbies it's because the question wasn't IF the game play would be changed, it was HOW can it be fixed to best reflect the original design.

All that aside, some if not most of the fixes will also be options and this is being done strictly to satisfy these minority of players who play ultra competitive games, but don't look for any fundamental game mechanics to be options, Game mechanics that are contrary to the original design of the game, like good vs evil and abilities to dump huge amounts of experience and alignment at will to name a few, are going to be a things of the past (actually a thing of 3.11.x). Still you have a choice, don't upgrade.

quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector

Orion, you missed my point. Yes, consider what newbs think but I think gearing changes to them is a mistake as MOST of the newbs will not be around in a year no matter what. These 25 people I am referring to will be here. I dont think you TRULY grasp all that goes into the game for these type players. While I in no way consider myself an expert at TW or one of the better players out there, let me tell you my daily routine.

I teach so I check in on games by telnetting out during the day. While I cant play most times I can take a good look at what is going on and therefore call corpies during passing periods to get them to take care of stuff if need be. I go home at lunch so I can do whatever needs to be done on the game. After practice I head home and usually spend about two hours doing TW related stuff (working on scripts, messing with my server, visiting with Alexio aboiut possible scripts, etc). I then spend some time with my wife when she arrives home from work and once she goes to bed I head back to the computer to check on games. If tern is at midnight I am usually awake for that so that I dont miss something. I go to bed with the expectation of receiving a call from my brother who usually pulls late night duty on most games. I wake up in the morning and head to the computer to make sure nothing has happened. I get ready for work and check one last time. I then repeat the process. This by no means is EVERYDAY, but is most days. AND this is for regular games, not tournies. The time intensifies when tourneys are going on. How many newbs can say they invest that much time in the game? Furthermore, there are LOTS of peeps who invest WAY more than I do in the game. Why should their opinion not count more than a newb? Get my drift?

Finally, for you to be playing for a year and NOT be using the advanced scripts that are available and NOT understand the impact of removing messages from certain prompts make me believe you dont invest nearly the time or energy that the elites do. That is why they are up in arms about changes that dont cater to what they think the game should be like.


You are correct, I place family time, college work, and other things as a higher priority than time spent researching Tradewars. I almost missed a wake of a relative to attend one of Grazhoppa's class sessions but he talked some sense into me to go and skip class as family is more important and I can always learn later. So excuse me for not sacrificing family time, college time, and personal time for furthering my TW knowledge and abilities.

Yes there are people who like you spend a lot of time invested in the game, some that even spend more time. I've known some players to be online 24 hours or more at a time and wonder how they ever find the time to sleep or eat or go to the bathroom.

I want you to understand that it is only a game, and that nobody but JP seems to have the power to make changes to it. We can suggest all we want, but JP has final say. Based on my experience as a programmer and the short time it took to get .57 out, I'd say JP was working overtime to do it. Did any of the expert players even stop to thank him for working so hard to fix some of the issues the expert players had with .56? I thank him for the hard work he did in getting .57 out right now if I didn't do so before.

I for one don't understand what all the hubbub is about. ANY program worth it's salt will have updates to make it better. I do own TWGS and soon will be opening it up for players. Elite players are welcomed but I think my games are more for newbie and decent to good players who enjoy a fairly long lasting game. Keep up the great work JP and don't worry about the grumbles. Most people may resist change but those same people will figure out how to use the changes to their advantage.

If anyone wants to check out what I have, go to 68.209.109.249 port 2002 and check them out. Only 2 games for now a 5k and 20k but more will come in time.