First of all I have not played on the new revision yet so bear with me a little here, this common sense question needs no specific revision to be asked. For those that like to hit 1234 enter and wait at Y/N for a fighter hit in sector 1234 and hit the Y key, isnt that the same as writinig a macro that says 1234^MY and assigning it to say F12 and just hitting the F12 key. Either way it requires the use of a living human being hitting only 1 key to achieve the same result since macros are sent in only 1 packet just like the Y key would. Now those who say you have fighter lock decay that can keep you locked long enough to hit the key is ridiculous to begin with. For the majority of "good, as in well written" scripts out there, if it takes you that long to hit 1 key the enemy is already gone anyway. Thats not even taking into consideration people using things like Cherokees lawnmower script which you dont have a hope in hell of catching even in Rev .55 by prelocking a sector and sitting at the Y/N prompt. The people you are attacking successfully with this tactic are the ones with poor scripts, bad macros or no macros, slow playing at keys, someone who makes an honest mistake in game play, or too new to the game to know better. To me it says that anyone with any skill can outrun your prelock anyway. Personally I use macros to kill fighters in sectors when people are on line. Its easy to make them burn up photons and turns and fuel by doing a macro in to kill the fighter then twarp a few sectors away and watch the logs, I just wish it would say something like <<Doctor Who>> just tried to photon Boss and missed. I play at keys all the time and I know the value of good scripts and good macros but I dont live by them or I would always be #SD#. It doesnt sound like the new changes will affect my game play one bit. Just my opinion. Flame on.

Actually this is good for DROP Team, DROP will by pass most all the new Crippling 'changes' to twgs, and allow for MORE CASH diverted to PROGRAMMERS LOL.....wanna play TW the way it was meant to be played? BIG QUESTION.....

Do you wanna use DROP its Free...wanna play with drop and be competitive, PAY FOR MODULES...
hehe.

Funny Drop and Ck's combat scripts prolly make more Profit then JP does on TWGS.....
Shrug...

I had no clue about Pwarping with no ORE, sad peeps cheat so much....
The photon bug that was nasty, as it had more impact on ruining the game.

I wonder why we cant fix bugs with out changing the game so much.

I am mostly a macro user, and this change effects most of my game play.
When at keys, with time to CHAT, I have time to LOCK...ya I will sit on a WARP LOCK for hours, hoping for a bite Orginally I had thought you could not 'stay alive' on y/n prompts, at least we can remain active while inactive.....

Now when you talk about 'restricting' or 'supressing' game messages, then I get worried.

So for now I leave you all to battle this out...
My 'temp' slogan....

http://www.twsyndicate.com/twgs56.htm

hehe


Res Judicata

Just wanted to poke my head in and say that I'm not ignoring these posts. I've just been too busy the last few days to participate in the debate.

People need to realize that this is how new changes are tested. I put out a new revision and then wait for feedback. To employ some of the sarcasm that has been used in this thread so far, I suppose I could make the change, sit and look at the screen for awhile, and then decide if it's thumbs up or thumbs down. But since TW development is a one-man effort, I need to rely on this community for playtesting and feedback. And I do try to listen to what is said and make my decisions based on that. But realize that input comes not only from players, but from gameops. Gameops don't care if the top players remain competitive. They want the game to be appealing to the "mediocre masses". In their eyes, scripters are what is killing this game.

That said, this fix isn't intended to eradicate scripting. I have other changes I'm considering for that (and they should be configurable so that gameops can have games that are for scripters and non-scripters). Let me see if I can adequately explain the point behind this change... One of the main reasons for bugs and exploits in TW is that players tend to be very good at doing things that the designers never anticipated. It has been frustrating for me over the years to go through this game point by point, fixing each new exploit that comes up. After each new revision, someone discovers something new. I would like to see development completed on this game, and if that trend continues, it will never be completed. So my hope is that by decreasing the complexity, in this case by significantly reducing the number of prompts at which a player can issue interactive globals, I will decrease the number of new, as yet unknown or unreported bugs. If I had a complete list of these bugs I could consider fixing them one at a time. But the reality is that most of them won't be reported until I'm unavailable for a fix. So yes, this is a band-aid, and I don't claim that it will be 100% effective. I do believe it will improve the bug situation.

The question has been raised as to why receiving messages should be included in this change. The point has been made that there are other ways to communicate, that in-TW messages are just a convenience. Well, as it pertains to the kinds of exploits I'm talking about here, the key to these exploits is synchronization. It is often necessary for one player session to sit at a prompt and then wait for some trigger before continuing. In some cases, timing isn't critical. In others, it is. My point is that by simplifying the kinds of interactions that are possible at these prompts, I greatly decrease the number of problems I'm likely to see.

I would also like to point out that a major part of the problem in resolving exploits and bugs in TW is the players themselves. They are often reluctant to report them. The players who use these bugs are easily the most qualified to make a report with the detail necessary for me to make the fix. In an earlier message, Cherokee rattled off several bugs that I have heard nothing about. I'm sure they'd be easy to fix, but I'm not getting the details on them.

I've come to accept this kind of attitude from the players. Without direct knowledge of the bugs in use, my only alternative is this kind of blanket attempt to remove entire categories of bugs.

In closing, I want to point out that change is not a popular thing in TW, yet the game is constantly evolving. And I'm not even the primary force behind that evolution. The players evolve the game by constantly making it do things it was not designed to do. In a way, that's a major part of the charm of this game. But it has been a constant effort to attempt to keep the game at least somewhat playable, and not merely a playground for bullies. In the two years since my last revision, the broad consensus is that the game is broken, and will die if changes are not made. I have two paths I can take to address this. One is to create a new version that resolves these problems with major gameplay changes. This is what I'm talking about for v4. The other is to attempt to return classic TW to the gameplay state of a few years ago, before it became "broken". The factors that have most contributed to the demise of the game are 24/7 Internet connections and scripting. Anything I can do to combat those problems without significantly changing the core gameplay I will consider. The changes I'm proposing, while perhaps not "realistic" (as if the game was a snap-shot of life to begin with), will bring the game closer to its roots. There are competing influences here, both to keep the game the same and to keep improving it. Classic TW only appeals to a small group of people, and primarily because they're nostalgic for the game they grew up playing. The current game no longer appeals to those people, and if that's the case, then I'm not sure there's any reason to keep it intact.

quote:Originally posted by John Pritchett (EIS)

In the two years since my last revision, the broad consensus is that the game is broken, and will die if changes are not made.

Truer words have not been spoken in this thread. Obviously, to all but a small few, the game is dying and our player base is shrinking. Will this fix that? Who the heck knows. But, something has to be done. Maybe 2 paths are what is needed. A nostalgia game and the current game with bug fixes. Hard to say. I'm so glad I'm not you John. But, you have my support and I hope that something CAN be done. TW is too great a game to just die and disappear altogether.

I'll take that as JP asking me to make another post...

I do not have a complete understanding of all of the bugs I mentioned earlier, but I do understand a few of them. It is my understanding that Doctor Who has explained most if not all of them in previous private communication to you, probably quite a long time ago though. I am certain he is willing to share the exact details with you. Send him an email. You'll find no one more knowledgeable about these bugs, nor anyone more interested in getting these bugs fixed, than he is.

I think the biggest thing "breaking the game" is honesty, integrity, respect, and common sense. Like John said, people actually find ways to make the game do what it wasnt intended to do to begin with, this is exploiting unexpected or overlooked programming problems. If people were more honest and respectful of other players and JP as well then they would have the integrity to report problems like that instead of exploiting them to their own advantage. Common sense says that people cant keep their mouth shut on a discovered bug and soon everyone is using it, like the bug for photoning fed is now being used on my server and as of about 2 weeks ago nobody knew about it. In closing, quit whining and crying about a few, in my opinion minor, changes. If people were honest enough not to use them or report them to be fixed then this would never have to happen.

There's no shortage of debate as to if these globals should be enabled or disabled at the CORE of the game. Well, why not make it a CONFIGURATION option? The SysOp can decide if they want to run a game (or server, if that's the level this has to sit at) which has "all globals" or "restricted globals" (call them whatever you like).

Would that be a possibility in .57? That way on a game/system level the SysOp can make the decision how they want their games to run. The potential exploits may be known, but again, if they players know and the SysOps know the pros/cons to having the globals configured a certain way, then it's really their decision if they want to play that way.

OK so I am not sure where I fit in here- becuase I have only seen and played this game for the last 2 years -tops. But, I am an avid player- I love the game. True, my first 6 months to a year I died - a lot. Then, I learned how to use helpers, and after about 1 year of play - I started scripting. Scripting at first was a way to do repetative tasks- easier. Of course , we all know the nature of combat scripts- but those aren't all the scripts out there. Information scripts can be the game winner above combat. So -now were saying that 24/7 connections and scripting is killing the game... weird- hell thats how I (grew up) playing it. Why would I want to invest my time and energy to building something in a game- for me to just log off and let someone take it? Not getting that one...Therefor- everyone likes to maintain an online presense - not that they are there 24/7 - just online...It's almost a bluff most of the time. Scripts killing the game- they just do what u can do by hand- with less mistakes and faster responses. You could setup zoc automacs to do similar things...nothing clueless about this. I evolved to fit the tradewar game as it is played today- I didn't whine cause I couldn't compete. It's darwinism almost- adpat or die. I think this is similar in any online game i have ever played. Good players use god strategy and skills. To try to even the field by making the field unlevel- is sorda nuts- in my opinion.

big12ozhog

quote:Originally posted by big12ozHOG

...snip...

So -now were saying that 24/7 connections and scripting is killing the game... weird- hell thats how I (grew up) playing it. Why would I want to invest my time and energy to building something in a game- for me to just log off and let someone take it?

...snip...

big12ozhog


I agree with you.

Sometimes 24/7 connections CAN be frustrating, but for those who say it's killing the game should play on games with timelimits.

I run timelimits on some of my games, usually set pretty liberal (8+ hours/day), however those games get FAR less attention because of it. The players have spoken.

quote:Originally posted by Shorty

I think the biggest thing "breaking the game" is honesty, integrity, respect, and common sense. Like John said, people actually find ways to make the game do what it wasnt intended to do to begin with, this is exploiting unexpected or overlooked programming problems. If people were more honest and respectful of other players and JP as well then they would have the integrity to report problems like that instead of exploiting them to their own advantage. Common sense says that people cant keep their mouth shut on a discovered bug and soon everyone is using it, like the bug for photoning fed is now being used on my server and as of about 2 weeks ago nobody knew about it. In closing, quit whining and crying about a few, in my opinion minor, changes. If people were honest enough not to use them or report them to be fixed then this would never have to happen.


on the contrary. i and some of my corpmates know of many game ruining bugs, but we do not go around telling people they exist nor how to use them. we report them in the beta forum and then keep our mouths shut. if you want us to prove you wrong we can just tell all right here and right now. i can guarentee that if you have losers using the lame photon fed bug right now, your server will be completely ruined in short order. that being said, it is my belief that the changes being pushed for the next release are going to reduce the strategic portion of the game. and if there is any one identifying quality between a new player and a top player, it is strategy. Not scripts, not sitting on y/n prompts. Not pounding a macro or having low pings.

"It's darwinism almost- adapt or die"

I think this is a good point for two reasons.

First, it's important to realize that the people who currently play the game are those who have "survived" the evolution of the way the game is played over the last few years. A game that once had an enormously broad appeal (granted in the small BBS market) is now only appealing to a very niche group. Those who enjoyed the game before it came to this stage have stopped hanging around this forum and cannot be found in the high profile games. Many of them are still out there, but they run private games. So what this forum represents is a very limited cross-section of play style. Anyone with a different opinion of how the game should be played is met with a great deal of hostility.

Second, as I said before, TW has always been evolving. People complain about any change, but once it settles in and they've had a chance to adapt, the good players figure out ways to be competitive. What I'd like to do is try something different and SEE if it's an improvement. We can't know until it gets some playing time and I get some balanced feedback, not just from an isolated group but from my customer base as a whole.

I've just been in this situation before, where a proposed or new change is highly unpopular. But before long, it becomes part of the new "state of the game" and people begin to defend it just as rabidly. Hell, the globals themselves took awhile before people started to warm up to them. The point is, I can't be guided by the initial complaints because they're always going to be there, no matter what. It needs to be tested.

A new revision is always supposed to get some serious play before it replaces the last, most stable revision, which is .55 in this case. It's not uncommon for ten new revisions to come out in several weeks, as I respond to feedback from players and gameops. That's the development cycle. Let's work through it and see what we can come up with.

the perception that the only players who know about bugs are the dishonest players is completely backwards. From what I read, the player who reported the photon fed bug wasn't really aware that he was using a bug in the first place. But most of the bugs are found by the serious players who take time to study the game, test theories out locally, and do a lot of experimenting. So in reality, the only thing keeping .55 from being ruined is the integrity of the top players who keep their mouths shut and dont use the bugs. and trust me, there are bugs that completely ruin the game, even in .56.

while i'm at it, and this isn't a flame - but it seems that while eis is trying to be fair to all the players who have opinions, it seems that many of the opinions of the newer/uninformed players are based on factual error or just flat out ignorance. needless to say, when someone who has put out 1/100th of the effort and time into a game voices an opinion that is not only wrong, but contrary to what a top player says, it is quite annoying. hence, the observation of slight hostility.

quote:Originally posted by John Pritchett (EIS)

"It's darwinism almost- adapt or die"

I think this is a good point for two reasons.

First, it's important to realize that the people who currently play the game are those who have "survived" the evolution of the way the game is played over the last few years. A game that once had an enormously broad appeal (granted in the small BBS market) is now only appealing to a very niche group. Those who enjoyed the game before it came to this stage have stopped hanging around this forum and cannot be found in the high profile games. Many of them are still out there, but they run private games. So what this forum represents is a very limited cross-section of play style. Anyone with a different opinion of how the game should be played is met with a great deal of hostility.


Firstly let me say.. I have had conversations with you in the past and I mean no disrespect (tho I do sound sour about many things).. I am voicing my views and that's that..

I can somewhat understand your position on the dying user base. But lets be honest here, Look at your competition. For 8088's - 286's this game was probably pretty cool.. (even looking back at the old door versions, I wasn’t into the non-door stuff)..
Now days your having to compete on a global scale, a BOG STANDARD PC coming from the store today should be able to run something as simple as UnrealTournament and that "Instant" fix is there.. To me this is one reason why I LOVE tradewars.. You don’t have a "Instant" fix.. You put weeks or months of hard work into a game WITH the goal of winning the game. I can see your point however, People today do want this "instant" fix, easy games, no strong competition. If the majority of new users want this then that's what the majority of TWGS owners will want. If that's what the TWGS owners want then they'll tell you and then you'll reply. I do understand that this is where it's going if you want to keep the game popular. The changes that Rickky mentioned earlier will probably start to kill some of the better players and make the game easier for the new players coming in. But I would say this as a word of caution to your thinking.

By slowing the game down, Delaying some things (Photon/Pwarp), Making Defenses stronger, Getting rid of GameComs during certain prompts.. That's going to be something that a really Good Fast player will be able to use to their advantage.. You told me a long time ago (probably years ago by now) that your play was to make ver3 bugfree, and then get ver4 out with all of these changes in for ver4 AND no major changes in version3. Removing Incoming Coms, Delaying Pwarp, Delaying Photons, Delaying game messages, and other things that you have spoke about in the past would prove to be a big change. A big change means that ver3 will probably never step out of beta and that you'll never get ver4 going.

I cant say that Scripts are running players out of the game but I might guess it's other things.. The unlimited games might pull in tons of players but guess what, They run world ssm/ world sst/ world explore scripts.. the Unlimited turn games really spoiled this game for most of us but it has brought a FEW great players to the board.. The Extreme Unbalance of edits is something that spoils newbies.. They don’t know how to read into them like the older player, Turn management just doesnt come into play and it's something that does make a big difference these days.. As for scripts.. Ask my corpies how many scripts I run.. I bet that most of the players out there that hate me as a scripter would be VERRY surprised to find out that I really only have 2 scripts that I use. Only one is Interactive with the game. So I could say that Unlim Turns is spoiling the game.. I could probably even go on to say that TWO years between Beta Releases doesn’t help keep players in the game.. 3 or more years before some bug fixes doesn’t help the situation.. There is more to it than the "higher class" community killing the "lower class" community then the upper class going away and the lower class feeling it's too difficult and quitting..

I mean I have mixed feelings about it all really..
I would love to see more players, but I don’t want the game dumb'd down just so new players can play..

As for bug reports.. I know that you have seen them..
Personally I got tired of sending them in, I mean, why should I send them in when they'll get sat on for SO LONG that the developer wont even have them on his list anymore..

My suggestion (Not that I count on the totem pole) is that you FIX ver3, Do the rewrite when you can and release it as something diff and move on to something that's going to be a bit more productive for you while fun for the players.. After all, Who likes these types of games.

as far as v56 goes.. I think that ver .55 will stay on many servers. If the .57 goes the way of the Piker then I know a few ops that will never change. Really I guess it's just time to start looking for a new game (trademark not bang) to play as this ones going to become very stale and boring to me once these new changes come about. If I want a quick fix then I’ll just play a game of solitaire.

You threaten to leave the game if I make certain changes. Others have already written me email telling me that they've left the game and why, because of changes that need to be made. It's a catch-22. If I'm going to adjust the game, it's going to be toward the way it was. Because like you said, this game isn't going to appeal to the modern player looking for an instant fix. This game appeals to people for what it was, and what it is today is not what it was. That's just a fact.

quote:Originally posted by Didaskalos


while i'm at it, and this isn't a flame - but it seems that while eis is trying to be fair to all the players who have opinions, it seems that many of the opinions of the newer/uninformed players are based on factual error or just flat out ignorance. needless to say, when someone who has put out 1/100th of the effort and time into a game voices an opinion that is not only wrong, but contrary to what a top player says, it is quite annoying. hence, the observation of slight hostility.



Input is not weighted in the manner i think you are describing, basically you have 4 sides who basically want the same things, you have the ultra high level players, you have the "mediocre masses", as JP likes to refer to them, the Trade Wars purists and then you have the programmer (JP). All of these groups to some extent or another will post ideas, opinions and "wish lists". From all these you put them together and then try and figure out how best to implement what’s best for the goal of the game.

Some of the group think it’s fine where the game has progressed some think it’s terrible in reality it’s somewhere in the middle and that means that some where in the middle of those opinions and suggestions are the correct fixes. Somewhere in the middle of 24/7 connections with bots playing through proxies for other players, attack scripts and not knowing what a PPT script is lies the answer to the question. Scripting is not the only issue with the game either, there are other exploits as well, one of the most glaring is the level 6 planet drain exploit. Fixing these types of exploits as well as the other less known exploitable bugs is as important as adding things like command input delays to even out the time difference between how fast a macro can enter keystrokes and how fast an average person can enter them, subspace and fed com delivery delays and message output delays, ect. ect.

The fact of the matter is no matter what changes occur the better players will still remain better, they will react faster, they will have a better strategy, they will have a more level head in the heat of battle, but there also needs to be room for the casual player to enjoy the game. Now that being said it should, and most likely will be up to the SysOp/GameOp if they want to add these types of delays, and limits or leave it wide open. Trade Wars is highly configurable and the v3 always has been and will remain so, the only reason an option isn’t given is if the amount of time to implement a fix that is configurable outweighs the advantage of the option.

Once again I advise to wait until revisions are released, experience the fixes and then weigh in. These changes like all those that have come before will stay or go but in the end everyone will adapt to them and it will be business as usual.