I agree with CK. Granted I am somewhat new to the big leagues of TW, but to take away the incoming messages doesnt sound like a good thing to me. The coms thing is not really that bothersome to me as I will simply use ICQ to communicate, but not being able to receive messages while at certain prompts is not a "fix" that needs to be made. The scripts that I use dont really rely on this, but rather the times i get lock and wait on peeps to hit a sector I am doing it by hand usually. What purpose would taking this ability away serve?

Good news for us newbies who do not rely on comms for our scripts to be triggered. It makes it easier for us to move around without getting killed as easily. Balances out the game better, makes the experts play by hand or lose their big advantage over us.

Use an IM service instead of COMs to communicate with your Corpies. No more letting the Corp password slip over the FedCom or reveal the location of your base over the FedCom. Just as for ICQ, AIM, YIM, MSNIM, Jabber IM, whatever over FedCom and then communicate via IM.

I can use YIM to send TW55 a message that I am trapped in sector 1234 by Grazhoppa who just ptorped me and seems to be AFK for the momment. Could he please twarp in on the fig I dropped and tow me away or attack Grazhoppa for me who is in the next sector I cannot move to. Sure a script can phone home for help for me, but the message may be lost in the game if TW55 is running a SDT script that does not break for messages. YIM will play a sound and flash a box that I sent TW55 a message.

"Good news for us newbies who do not rely on comms for our scripts to be triggered. It makes it easier for us to move around without getting killed as easily. Balances out the game better, makes the experts play by hand or lose their big advantage over us."

this conversation is not about scripts. just because you can't stay alive against good players doesn't mean the game should stop sending game messages. this is a typical irresponsible post by a newbie that thinks the game should be altered to allow them to live longer against skilled players.

This change has absolutely nothing to do with scripts, and will not help Orion or any other terrible player live a second longer in any game against a decent opponent.

People need to make sure they know what they are talking about before posting here. Claiming that JP's next batch of cripples to the game will help you play better reeks of ignorance.

The game is pretty darn well balanced in version .55 and any change to it, no matter how good the intention, needs to be discussed with people who truly know how to play the game. The only person in any way affiliated with EIS that this applies to is Harley Nuss, aka Kemper3.

I'd still love to hear answers to the questions I posed a few messages up. What is the real intention behind these changes?

Please keep this thread civil. You can debate another user's points, but please don't attack the posters themselves. Things like "just because you can't stay alive" and "I don't see how you can give input on the game's development" are uncalled for.

As to the use of outside programs to communicate with each other, sure, people can use ICQ if they want to, but the issue that most people have is why should they need to? For the most part, when there are serious game bugs that need to be fixed, people are pretty accepting of the changes, even if they're an annoyance. When changes are made for no apparent reason, it's much more difficult to accept the annoyance.

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar

Good news for us newbies who do not rely on comms for our scripts to be triggered. It makes it easier for us to move around without getting killed as easily. Balances out the game better, makes the experts play by hand or lose their big advantage over us.

Use an IM service instead of COMs to communicate with your Corpies. No more letting the Corp password slip over the FedCom or reveal the location of your base over the FedCom. Just as for ICQ, AIM, YIM, MSNIM, Jabber IM, whatever over FedCom and then communicate via IM.

I can use YIM to send TW55 a message that I am trapped in sector 1234 by Grazhoppa who just ptorped me and seems to be AFK for the momment. Could he please twarp in on the fig I dropped and tow me away or attack Grazhoppa for me who is in the next sector I cannot move to. Sure a script can phone home for help for me, but the message may be lost in the game if TW55 is running a SDT script that does not break for messages. YIM will play a sound and flash a box that I sent TW55 a message.


Uh..
HAHA
Uh..
HA HA HA
Uh..
Well.. I cant say it but it's true..
Really.. If a player can find & pod you by hand in 5 seconds
and you sit there thinking WHAT TO DO WHAT TO DO ..

Then who's going to be able to call for backup faster.. The person who types faster (and is called a Living script).. Or the person who's on the port p00pin in their pants..

All I can say is.. Lots of ppl will get lots of time "out" of the game to clean their drawers..

I will take all these in one reply to save some time and space.


quote:Originally posted by Doctor Who


You should play the game if you want to know how it will impact gameplay. I know it's been a verry long time for you. Just because you can no longer "Script" in the game it doesnt mean that you should work in getting all coms stopped. If you think Lock&Drop is the big script of the day then I dont see how you can give any input on the games development. Removing the coms from the "Y/N" prompt will ONLY stop "lock&drops" or "delay drops"



Doctor Who,

1st of all because I don't play 5 or six hours a day any longer doesn't mean I have no idea about game play impact, this fix of an exploit has 0 impact on legitimate normal balanced game play, period
2nd You have no idea how long anything has been, I have played in every era of Trade Wars and played at very high level.
3rd Once again this change isn't mean to stop any script, it's meant to stop an exploit.
4th My input on game development spans almost the entire lifespan of Trade Wars and its multiple versions, DOOR, MBBS and 3.x as well as many of the offshoots like Yankee Trader and 2001.. but that's not what you were really trying to find out, what you were trying to do was subtly insult me, I recommend you keep your petty insults to the TWGS.ORG forum and out of here, this is the TWGS SysOp /GameOp forum, please try not to get confused



quote:Originally posted by the reverend


gypsy - scripts are FAST, so they dont need to sit at the Y/N prompt. people who sit at the Y/N prompt are not using scripts - they are waiting for something to happen so they can hit Y and get a kill instead of hitting "P1234^MY" to get the kill. also, if you prelock and the fig gets killed, you can still move the planet in on warp decay. thats why people sit at the Y/N prompt. humans with slow reflexes do that kind of thing to BEAT scripts. not the other way around.

i hope that makes sense.



Rev,

I think I have a grasp of how fast a script is which is why the line right above where you cut the quote off it states that sitting 1 menu level up from the Y/N prompt won't break the script. Once again this change is not meant to stop scripting, it's meant to stop an exploit that has been around for a long time. Had this code been based on the multiplayer version of TW this exploit would have never made it into the game, but since its based on the single player version and communications and asset reports were added as an after thought to the Y/N prompts it made it in. If an attempt was being made to remove pdrop or other forms of scrip attacking something like an additional check or a delay on the asset report would be added so that even if you are scripting from a prompt you couldn't lock onto a sector after a fig was destroyed. Pdrop and delay drops were apart of Trade Wars 10 years ago before TWGS ever exsisted... a couple of the Helpers of the day, most notably TW-ATS, even had a built in feature for it, and guess what it did it without inputs from a Y/N? prompt, because you couldn;t get messages at a Y/N. The idea is to get v3 to a stable point that is as close to the spirit and heart of classic DOOR and Multi-Player Trade Wars then move onto a new version. This change has 0 impact on game play, its not like for instance a delay equal to that of a 25 or 30 turn ship was added to moving a planet or you were no longer able to drain a planets fuel ore by retreating from the PIG right?

I hope that makes sense.



quote:Originally posted by Cherokee-TLTT


As I said before, scripts are beside the point. Sure, I do have a script in which ONE of the options is to sit at a pwarp lock prompt and wait for a fig to be hit, but the fact that something CAN be scripted doesn't mean it's some undesireable feature of the game. The fact is, everything that a player can do, a script can do. The real issue at hand is how these new changes are going to affect game play, not script usage. Because there's no way to break a script without breaking a normal players ability to do the same thing the script was intended to do. Is the thinking here that "if we break the game then the scripts won't work"?

I'd love to hear an answer to the question : How does removing the ability to receive any messages displayed to screen while at these prompts enhance game play? Is this an attempt to fix bugs, to break scripts, or to dumb down the game so that there is less difference between newbies and experienced players?



Cherokee,

Once again CK this particular change is not being made to break individual scripts, and once again it has no impact on legitimate balanced game play. The heavy scripters for the most part play against each other anyway and this change is not going to affect them. it removes an exploit of the game. The second part of the question is the same as the first, it doesn't enhance game play, it doesn't have a negative impact either, it removes the ability to take advantage of a design flaw and is one step of many towards getting Trade Wars v3 to a stable, playable release that is as close to balanced classic play as possible. Scripts have always been apart of the game, and they will continue to be apart of v3.

JP,
Thanks for the update. The changes will take some time to get used too. Once people get used to them, then you will know whether the changes were good or bad. I have had to modify some scripts, but that has happened with EVERY version upgrade as far back as I can remember. I would wait a few weeks and let some people get in some big games and really put it to the test before making any adjustments. So far, the changes don't have any positive or negative impact on the way I play, but I'm not done testing. It's just different. It would be nice to chat from any prompt, but I'll get over it.

As far as the gap between the scripters and non-scripters goes, it's always been there. Since .55 was around for 2 years, the gap closed up some. It will close again in time. Hopefully, the players with the scripts will once again step up and share. IF people are really worried about it, then they will LEARN how to script for themselves. I'm planning on making a few updates to my website to reflect these new changes. Might be a few weeks tho.

I'm still confused about what the exploit is that will be fixed by removing messages from y/n prompts. Are you saying that locking onto a sector is the exploit? Or is there some other exploit that this is supposed to fix?

It seems like the planned changes to .57 regarding y/n prompts is just the addition of a inconvienence for no real gain. I think that's why most people feel upset about them, they just don't seem like something that needs to be done. Change just for the sake of change isn't necessarily a good thing.

quote:Originally posted by Cherokee-TLTT

I'm still confused about what the exploit is that will be fixed by removing messages from y/n prompts. Are you saying that locking onto a sector is the exploit? Or is there some other exploit that this is supposed to fix?


locking onto a sector isn;t an exploit, its a function of the game, locking onto a sector while still being able to receive coms and messages is an exploit, and its used to gain an advantage thats contrary to design.

quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (teamEIS)

quote:Originally posted by Cherokee-TLTT

I'm still confused about what the exploit is that will be fixed by removing messages from y/n prompts. Are you saying that locking onto a sector is the exploit? Or is there some other exploit that this is supposed to fix?


locking onto a sector isn;t an exploit, its a function of the game, locking onto a sector while still being able to receive coms and messages is an exploit, and its used to gain an advantage thats contrary to design.


Yea.. I get your point..
This game is supposed to be in the future.. I mean..
What fighter pilot these days can converse with base while he's getting a weapons lock!.. Heh.. Guess we are all part of the Iraq airforce..

The Y/N prompt really doesnt make that much of an advantage.. The Y/N prompt will probably hinder Macro players more than Script/NonScript players. The logical progression for most players is normal play -> macro's -> macro triggers -> scripts..

There are other problems out there that werent fixed that will be much more important than something as silly as this "Fix". JP says he doesnt play this game nore does he like this type of game so that tells me that he has someone (or some group) of people telling him what the game needs, and (this is just my view) they dont seem to know that much (even if for instance, they have played the whole lifespan of the game)..

I guess another big question will come to play..
DecayLock Setting in TWGS.

It seems to me like JP has dealt with this before and a fix was issued. As the code stands now the Lock lost warning will need to be removed too. Lets not forget that there is a bug with Prelocks, and that the global bugs (now not global) still alow for many planet bugs to be used. Warping a planet (ANY) hops with 400 ore is still possible.. Warping it home with 0 turns for 800 ore is still possible too.. so 64 hops (one way uses turns) and we only burn 1200 ore.. BAM
Quick Citadels anyone
BAM
Super Regen colos&figs&turn regen&ports&more
BAM

We should revisit something that was talked about I think 4 years ago..
JP Dont make more changes till you get it stable..

Granted the TWGS Ver of TW2002 has only been beta for what? 5 years now so I dont guess it's a real big deal if stuff isnt stable soon..

I fail to follow the logic that concludes that locking a sector and receiving fig messages is some sort of exploit. I can't drive and listen to the radio at the same time? Or is it just that you think this is the main tactic used to separate the newbs from the elites?

I got news for you... DRoP is coming out soon, featuring full proxy to proxy communications. I will hold my lock on a sector, my corpie will get a fig hit message, his proxy will tell my proxy, and then I will still get the message.

This is, quite frankly, a silly attempt at trying to alter the natural flow of the game, for what real purpose I cannot understand. It's not even as if this issue is all that critical... holding pwarp locks is something I rarely ever do. Maybe a few times in a big tournament, almost never in a regular game. The only reason the issue is upsetting everyone is because it is representative of the attitude at EIS, that changes must be made to the game without having any real understanding what those changes will mean. If there was a single valid reason why this change was needed, nobody would be complaining. SO please explain WHY you think receiving game messages is considered an exploit.

The very first rule of software development is to listen to the users and meet their needs. Every single time a developer has tried to impose his own will on a product, that is contrary to the wishes of the users, it has been a failure. I don't claim to represent ALL players of this game, but I definitely represent ALL of the better players, at least on this topic. So far I see only two people who really think this change is a good idea.

It appears now that JP's decided to listen to a single player who no longer plays the game, at least not at any sort of competitive level. I'm not trying to be insulting, just honest. The very best and most knowledgeable players in the game have weighed in with their opinions, and are being ignored.

I will continue to run my games on version .55 and I will continue to play on other servers that run version .55 until such time as a newer version is available that doesn't cripple any of the features that I and others enjoy about this game.

The way it looks now, this whole argument is a lost cause. I'll not post again about this topic unless asked to do so. You know where I stand. Listen to me or ignore me, it's your game, not mine.

All input is considered, from all different levels of players. This game isn’t just for the serious players, it is also for the casual player who enjoys a slower pace of game. The fact of the matter is the “better” players that Cherokee claims to speak for number somewhere around 25-30 give or take. Now this doesn’t mean that because of the fact that the vocal few serious players resist any change to their current game play it’s the intent to slow the game down or bring the few serious players down to the multitude of casual players level, its just an intent to get where v3 was going all along which was a merge of the single player DOOR version and the multi-player MBBS version to make a stable multiplayer version that remains true to the classic game play of Trade Wars.

Just because a player is very good at the game or plays at ultra high levels of competition doesn’t mean they are more qualified to make decisions concerning the overall game design for all players, because they only think that the game needs to be played at that level, that anyone else who doesn’t play at that level is a “newb” or unknowledgeable and should have no say in any matter. I can point to posts active right now from people in this debate where the example is made that if someone speaks up that is deemed less skillful or knowledgeable then they are told to shut up, or go away or whatever. The fact of the matter is this game isn’t designed to make 25 or 30 people playing at these ultra high levels happy.

Because of the 2 year gap between revisions it seems like drastic things are changing but this FIX along with many others was planned a long time ago. There are still a couple revisions to go before v3 is final I suggest you all wait and see how they turn out, this is not going to be the last fix the more serious players are going to dislike, like Cherokee has stated you aren’t forced to upgrade to .56, .57 or the final revision, if you don’t like the changes you can stay at .55 forever. Lots of people use older versions of software because they don’t care for newer versions as well, that’s an individual choice that must be made.

quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (teamEIS)


All input is considered, from all different levels of players. This game isn’t just for the serious players, it is also for the casual player who enjoys a slower pace of game. The fact of the matter is the “better” players that Cherokee claims to speak for number somewhere around 25-30 give or take. Now this doesn’t mean that because of the fact that the vocal few serious players resist any change to their current game play it’s the intent to slow the game down or bring the few serious players down to the multitude of casual players level, its just an intent to get where v3 was going all along which was a merge of the single player DOOR version and the multi-player MBBS version to make a stable multiplayer version that remains true to the classic game play of Trade Wars.

Just because a player is very good at the game or plays at ultra high levels of competition doesn’t mean they are more qualified to make decisions concerning the overall game design for all players, because they only think that the game needs to be played at that level, that anyone else who doesn’t play at that level is a “newb” or unknowledgeable and should have no say in any matter. I can point to posts active right now from people in this debate where the example is made that if someone speaks up that is deemed less skillful or knowledgeable then they are told to shut up, or go away or whatever. The fact of the matter is this game isn’t designed to make 25 or 30 people playing at these ultra high levels happy.

Because of the 2 year gap between revisions it seems like drastic things are changing but this FIX along with many others was planned a long time ago. There are still a couple revisions to go before v3 is final I suggest you all wait and see how they turn out, this is not going to be the last fix the more serious players are going to dislike, like Cherokee has stated you aren’t forced to upgrade to .56, .57 or the final revision, if you don’t like the changes you can stay at .55 forever. Lots of people use older versions of software because they don’t care for newer versions as well, that’s an individual choice that must be made.



Sounds to me like your going the long way to make this modification..
Remove Mines, The ability to deploy figs, Quasars, Naz, and the attack key..

Those would surely get you to this "casual" concept..
It cant take 5 years to get those few changes made..

At least after it's donw some players might not die as often (granted I can name a few who would still manage it)