I stated this earlier in a somewhat disrelated thread so I thought I might bring it up for some helpfull thought or discussion. I wish they would just Open Source the current version and start working on V4. Wont happen, but thought I would put in my two cents. I'm sure there are plenty out there who are willing and able to make the necessary changes that are needed in the game, myself included. Plus, with the source available, you can completely customize the game to your likes and thus be able to attract more players (remembers back to his ROM mud programming days). Besides, I read in a thread that was written in December of 2001 per Rick Mead that work was started on a more graphical REMAKE of TW (not TW:DM but of the current text gameplay version). It would be nice if EIS did this and left the V3 to us text type people. *wishfull dreaming*

Thoughts, concerns, flames?[:D]

quote:Originally posted by Shinare

I stated this earlier in a somewhat disrelated thread so I thought I might bring it up for some helpfull thought or discussion. I wish they would just Open Source the current version and start working on V4. Wont happen, but thought I would put in my two cents. I'm sure there are plenty out there who are willing and able to make the necessary changes that are needed in the game, myself included. Plus, with the source available, you can completely customize the game to your likes and thus be able to attract more players (remembers back to his ROM mud programming days). Besides, I read in a thread that was written in December of 2001 per Rick Mead that work was started on a more graphical REMAKE of TW (not TW:DM but of the current text gameplay version). It would be nice if EIS did this and left the V3 to us text type people. *wishfull dreaming*

Thoughts, concerns, flames?[:D]


Not that my opinion matters but why would John want to give up a profit by Open Sourcing the current version? Sure I bet you would love to make some changes to it... rename the whole thing and then sell it as some weak clone.
Im not sure what all junk you want to add but the server software seems fine. I can add whatever I need, and whenever the next version
come out of course it should be fine. Im pleased with my purchase.
Of course grant it not that my opinion matters.... it just seems your asking for a open source on something that shouldnt be open source.

quote:Originally posted by xblack_knightx
I bet you would love to make some changes to it... rename the whole thing and then sell it as some weak clone.



Why would I want to "sell" it when its in open source, your failing to see my point. Work needs to start on V4. They have already stated MANY times that V4 is going to be a TOTAL rewrite and I doubt the V3 code has been looked at since Feb. 2002. What I want to do is CLOSE some of the still remaining bugs (things that I think are bugs and maybe not other people), customize it so that not all TW's are EXACTLY alike, kinda like customizing your MUD server. I realize there are probably more instances of TW2002 v3 games out there than there are ACTIVE players so being able to customize yours would attract people to your particular server.

quote:Originally posted by xblack_knightx
why would John want to give up a profit by Open Sourcing the current version?


To tell you the truth, I think the profit curve for this game is pretty far down the line, hence the need for something new (TWGS and a possible V4). I would be supprised if JP gets enough revinue from TW2002 V3 sales to host this site every month.

quote:Originally posted by xblack_knightx
Of course grant it not that my opinion matters....


This is just a discussion that might spark some conversation around this (TWGS Sysop/GameOp) dead forum. I dont think you should think that anyone's opinion really matters all that much more than someone else's.[:p]

PS> osCommerce is open source, Apache Web Server is open source, Linux is open source, MySQL is open source, Phpnuke is open source, a lot of things that Micro$oft seems to think are woth THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of dollars to the average man are open source and still manage to make it.

(sorry for the additional post, forgot to mention this in the above post)

I agree it should be open sourced. I do not know how much money is left to be made off V3. I suppose JP can keep selling copies at $80 a pop, but given how much time he needs to put into it to fix it, seems it would be a better use of his time to focus on a game that would sell more. I have heard that TWGS sells really well bla bla bla, but thats crap, we all know it. He should just open the code and move on so we can our working game, and he can make real money off something new.

I doubt V4 is going to get started any time soon with JP down in Arizona working with Realm, so regardless of whether V3 was open-sourced or not, it wouldn't really speed up development of any possible future rewrites.

TW code has been extremely well protected since it's original release under Martech Software. If it were open sourced, there would no longer be any point in playing. Think about it. This game is over a decade old and people are -still- learning about the game. In fact, a lot of stuff has been unlearned over the past couple years, with people just now beginning to rediscover tricks and tactics.

If you open source the game, then there are no suprises left. There are no unknowns. One of the very things that has kept the game alive--constant discoveries of new and better ways of doing things, of figuring out the most minute intricacies of the game for even the slightest of tactical advantages--becomes extinct. And with that the game will become extinct. Once everyone knows everything there is to know about the game, what's the point in playing? What is the challenge?

Better yet, think of it this way. How many of you can sit down in a Delphi IDE and understand what you're seeing? Who would then hold the advantages? As it is now, scripters have an advantage over newb non-scripters (not that anything is wrong with scripting). Imagine what will happen with the elite players have not only scripts but know every minor detail of the inner workings of the game. What then?

Open sourcing this game would destroy it. Forget the thought. Write it off as one of the worst ideas in the history of Trade Wars. Throw it in the garbage and send it to the recycling center.

quote:Originally posted by Rave

Better yet, think of it this way. How many of you can sit down in a Delphi IDE and understand what you're seeing? Who would then hold the advantages? As it is now, scripters have an advantage over newb non-scripters (not that anything is wrong with scripting). Imagine what will happen with the elite players have not only scripts but know every minor detail of the inner workings of the game. What then?

Open sourcing this game would destroy it. Forget the thought. Write it off as one of the worst ideas in the history of Trade Wars. Throw it in the garbage and send it to the recycling center.


First I should apologize to Shinare, no, I wasnt flaming you... I am always sarcastic. And Rave, you my lady are far more intelligent than even I. I didn't even consider that point... another reason I agree with you none the less.[8D]

quote:Originally posted by Rave
If you open source the game, then there are no suprises left. There are no unknowns.

I totally disagree with you on this point. There would be TONS of NEW suprises that each individual coder would incorporate into his/her version of the game. NO TWO TW GAMES WOULD BE EXACTLY ALIKE!! Plus, an adventuring coder could do many fabulous things never before seen in the game. Like "snippits" are for MUDS, they could be for TW as well. Add all kindas of new features, abilities, stats, scores. Completely redesign the way the whole thing looks if you want.

I do have to agree with you on one point tho. Yes, little things like the random number generator for ships being towed out of fed space would be reveiled. Big deal. AMTRAK works either way, knowning or not knowing. So scripts would be tweeked to be the best they possibly could, they already do a REALLY good job as it is (which DOES in my opinion take a little bit away form the game already, not saying its wrong, just takes away.)

I know it will never happen. But, at lease give up a little that its not a "GARBAGE" idea with no merrits, just a good one that will never happen because JP's business model wont work because of it.

Hey shinare
While you are out here asking for all these dumb stupid things. Could you call Blizzard and ask them to release the code to Warcraft. I mean they are busy with version 3 so I am sure they will not mind parting with it. And just so you know I am being sarcastic. I believe you should leave well enough alone.

I don't play TW to be surprised. I like to know what strategies are there and the make my choice based on my own evaluation of strategy. Even if people knew the intricacies, there would still be differences in the way people did things. Take building H's vs. using O's to produce organics, despite how easy it is to do math, some people prefer one method while others prefer another. Neither is totally wrong, one way favors one playing style, the other favors another. Knowing exactly how the game worked would not change that. Instead, it would allow the game to be FIXED, so the "intracies" which are largely bugs, could be fixed. The limpet removal bug for example, the time limit bug, etc etc. If there are mysteries or intricacies with steal factors, or colonist growth, they should probably be FIXED so they conform to a proper algorithm. I don't see any damage to be done by open sourcing TW, that could not be fixed, by make the code work properly.

quote:Originally posted by DEMON

Hey shinare
While you are out here asking for all these dumb stupid things. Could you call Blizzard and ask them to release the code to Warcraft. I mean they are busy with version 3 so I am sure they will not mind parting with it. And just so you know I am being sarcastic. I believe you should leave well enough alone.



LoL! [;)]

quote:Originally posted by Col Sanders

I don't play TW to be surprised. I like to know what strategies are there and the make my choice based on my own evaluation of strategy. Even if people knew the intricacies, there would still be differences in the way people did things. Take building H's vs. using O's to produce organics, despite how easy it is to do math, some people prefer one method while others prefer another. Neither is totally wrong, one way favors one playing style, the other favors another. Knowing exactly how the game worked would not change that. Instead, it would allow the game to be FIXED, so the "intracies" which are largely bugs, could be fixed. The limpet removal bug for example, the time limit bug, etc etc. If there are mysteries or intricacies with steal factors, or colonist growth, they should probably be FIXED so they conform to a proper algorithm. I don't see any damage to be done by open sourcing TW, that could not be fixed, by make the code work properly.



Luckily what you see or don't see as damaging has 0 effect on anything... and just out of curiosity who do you see fixing all the "bugs" you say are in the game if it was open source? You? I don't think there is a need for “Hello world!” code in TW so your vast programming experience is probably not going to be a big help, so you are just looking for a new person to bitch and moan about?

The code is NOT going to be open sourced by EIS, but it is always for sale... since you are so confident about your views why not offer to buy the code and open source it yourself, or hire someone to make the fixes you think need to be made and support it yourself, I am sure you would do a bang up job.

My recommendation to JP was to finalize v3 it leaving it "as is" when he decided to take the position on the DM team, it is so much more stable then the MBBS "final" version no one could have blamed him. He should have finalized it at .50; common sense says that continued work on legacy code is fruitless. But JP wouldn't do that because he feels he has an obligation to the game itself and he felt that, unlike you, most people he has sold the game to (and inherited from martech) would be appreciative of the work he has done and would understand when an opportunity comes up to further along his professional experiences and career and that it's not everyday you get an opportunity to work with the caliber of people and talent that have been brought in for the DM project. He counted on his customers knowing that taking a year off of his own projects is well worth it in the long run for what he is going to bring back to his game thus making their purchase that much better.

I guess some people just can't see the forest through the trees and want to try and make a JP out to be some greedy villain at the first opportunity. He has done nothing but improve on thousands of lines of crappy code, and bad game design and released the best version of the game every produced. I am sure that the 400+ people who paid for the MBBS version of TW who have since switched to TWGS would whole heartedly agree that the current beta release (even the .50 release) of TW and TWGS is infinitely better then the 2.03 MBBS version they paid $570.00 (not to mention the hundreds, sometimes thousands, invested in the MBBS itself)

You want to try and make it sound like you are so put out and how buggy the game is and needs to be fixed, well that is nonsense the game could easily be finalized as is and would be one of the least buggy games that is played today. But still when JP gets done with his year in the big pond he will come back and continue on fixing what is left with v3 and moving on with a ground up project unless of course some genius like yourself decides to buy the code, then we can just grade your efforts up against those already put forth. Which is much fairer then the grading scale you seem to be extending JP.

Maybe instead of spending your energy sounding off about how wronged you are because you may have to wait 1 year for a revision (which no guarantee has ever been made to you or anyone else about time lines of revisions anyway) you could just say to JP thanks, good luck and can't wait till you get back to work on TW

quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (teamEIS)
Maybe instead of spending your energy sounding off about how wronged you are because you may have to wait 1 year for a revision (which no guarantee has ever been made to you or anyone else about time lines of revisions anyway) you could just say to JP thanks, good luck and can't wait till you get back to work on TW



[8D]Aside from a shrine to JP and this game I love I think Ill make one for you too [:D]. For what its worth I see nothing wrong with the game that warrants open source. And even then I see no reason for that... the last thing we as customers want to see is thousands of cloned (open sourced) versions of tw going around. Aside from that the game itself is immortal... why mess with a good thing [;)]

Puke.... You need not address me Rick. Aside from all your imagined insults and such nonsense, The question becomes, is TW for sale? IF the code were for sale I would try to put together a group of people that wanted to open source it, to buy it and then do so. I doubt its for sale a reasonable price though. Despite your impression of the game's buginess, other people notice plenty of bugs. You can continue to play the part of Jeff Moriarty if you want. I don't really care. Someone else posted the topic, and I explained why I agree with him. Nothing in your response was a lgeitimate counterpoint. So I will keep waiting for your synapases to fire and see if a legitimate counter point can work its way out of your mouth.

quote:Originally posted by Col Sanders

Puke.... You need not address me Rick. Aside from all your imagined insults and such nonsense, The question becomes, is TW for sale? IF the code were for sale I would try to put together a group of people that wanted to open source it, to buy it and then do so. I doubt its for sale a reasonable price though. Despite your impression of the game's buginess, other people notice plenty of bugs. You can continue to play the part of Jeff Moriarty if you want. I don't really care. Someone else posted the topic, and I explained why I agree with him. Nothing in your response was a lgeitimate counterpoint. So I will keep waiting for your synapases to fire and see if a legitimate counter point can work its way out of your mouth.


You sure have terrible spelling for someone interested in open source. I am just curious, do you harass Microsoft this much? I believe windows has more bugs. Maybe I am mistaken. Everything has bugs, however I don't see why you seem so interested in the source. I have been on the internet long enough to know lots of people want to scam me for something... and you are no different. Would you design a better game from the "open source" of tw? If so would it be free? Or would you over inflate the registration for a clone of something I already paid for? And how could such a horrid speller do a good job programming? Like I said in an earlier post, I am happy with what I paid for. Whatever bugs are present I can accept.

Black Knight