On day one, I had a player come in and waste a few hundred ports by blowing them with some kind of scripting. I also posted that no scripting would be used that would throw the game out of kilter and that puppy, in two days would have destroyed every sector in the 20k universe. I lost track in the hundreds of destroyed ports.

I locked him out by IP. About 15 seconds later, he comes back in on anther persons account that is already playing with script and starts to complain. Before he could send that message, I locked the Duper out.

I am wondering what scripting that could have been. It's definately out of bounds. Talk about killing a Tournament game fast.





Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

quote:
On day one, I had a player come in and waste a few hundred ports by blowing them with some kind of scripting. I also posted that no scripting would be used that would throw the game out of kilter and that puppy, in two days would have destroyed every sector in the 20k universe. I lost track in the hundreds of destroyed ports.

I locked him out by IP. About 15 seconds later, he comes back in on anther persons account that is already playing with script and starts to complain. Before he could send that message, I locked the Duper out.

I am wondering what scripting that could have been. It's definately out of bounds. Talk about killing a Tournament game fast.



I am not sure what you are asking here, there is no script that will allow you to blow ports without the resources to do so (there is no script anywhere that will allow you to do something you can't do by hand). Obviously if the person had the fighters to blow "hundreds of ports" then he earned the cash to buy the fighters to do so. What’s the difference if he blows the ports by hand or by script? As far as a specific script to do what you decribed would be a snap, just write or use one of the many exsisting explore scripts that after afighter is droped it looks for a it does a if/else on P (if being a port prompt else being a sector prompt) and attack or move accordingly.

Your rule of "no scripting would be used that would throw the game out of kilter" is somewhat vague, as a ppt script can throw a game out of kilter if 1 person is using it, knows how to use it well and everyone else are second-rate(or third-rate) TW players and aren’t using a ppt.

You should just post that scripts, helpers, macros, auto-replies, calculators, abacus’s and any other helping devices are not to be used on your server.

The simple fact of the matter is competitive players who are skilled at the game use automation tools, those that they kill or lock out of games have the following options:

1. they will take lesson from getting destroyed in games and by doing solearn the game and learn how to use tools to their advantage

2. they will continue to be pummeled in competitive games and are forced to play on newb boards that try and make no scripting rules, with 2 or 3 like skilled players. The by-product of this is these players never learn how to play and continue to play very poorly often having whining as the #1 skill.

3 they quit playing Trade Wars all together… which is too bad because victims are always a welcome sight.



Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS

quote:
quote:
On day one, I had a player come in and waste a few hundred ports by blowing them with some kind of scripting. I also posted that no scripting would be used that would throw the game out of kilter and that puppy, in two days would have destroyed every sector in the 20k universe. I lost track in the hundreds of destroyed ports.

I locked him out by IP. About 15 seconds later, he comes back in on anther persons account that is already playing with script and starts to complain. Before he could send that message, I locked the Duper out.

I am wondering what scripting that could have been. It's definately out of bounds. Talk about killing a Tournament game fast.



I am not sure what you are asking here, there is no script that will allow you to blow ports without the resources to do so (there is no script anywhere that will allow you to do something you can't do by hand). Obviously if the person had the fighters to blow "hundreds of ports" then he earned the cash to buy the fighters to do so. What’s the difference if he blows the ports by hand or by script? As far as a specific script to do what you decribed would be a snap, just write or use one of the many exsisting explore scripts that after afighter is droped it looks for a it does a if/else on P (if being a port prompt else being a sector prompt) and attack or move accordingly.

Your rule of "no scripting would be used that would throw the game out of kilter" is somewhat vague, as a ppt script can throw a game out of kilter if 1 person is using it, knows how to use it well and everyone else are second-rate(or third-rate) TW players and aren’t using a ppt.

You should just post that scripts, helpers, macros, auto-replies, calculators, abacus’s and any other helping devices are not to be used on your server.

The simple fact of the matter is competitive players who are skilled at the game use automation tools, those that they kill or lock out of games have the following options:

1. they will take lesson from getting destroyed in games and by doing solearn the game and learn how to use tools to their advantage

2. they will continue to be pummeled in competitive games and are forced to play on newb boards that try and make no scripting rules, with 2 or 3 like skilled players. The by-product of this is these players never learn how to play and continue to play very poorly often having whining as the #1 skill.

3 they quit playing Trade Wars all together… which is too bad because victims are always a welcome sight.



Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS



That's fine if you want a 2 day game. Get two players doing the same thing and the game is gone in 2 days. It trashed the game to the point where it was not playable in one day.

The sad part of it is, the player wasn't even home. He was at another location playing as another person, a dupe. Plus, he was his own partner to boot. One Character does the damage and gets booted while the other character becomes his own partner and collects all the good stuff. IF that person hadn't goofed up in his chat, I would have never known and left it alone.

It also plastered where a person could get the scripting all over the place. I don't mind scripting but the Advertisements have to go.

I think that a player must use a bit of reason. There is no possible way that this player didn't know that the Dupers were not allowed. It was clearly posted with the penalty. And there is no way that that person wasn't aware that this scripting wouldn't trash the game. I tightened the game up to make it tough. One day to have enough horses to start blowing ports at that alarming rate was impossible. Yet it happened. I wished the Script Writers of that caliber were writing games or business applications. Think of the fantastic output we would enjoy(grin)

Yes, they do exist and some strictly use them. They start them, head over to their buddies house or use their dialup or second IP and enter the game as a dupe. You usually can't catch them unless they are extremely blantant. I even announce why I had a one person per IP to discourage Dupers.

I just want the others to know that there are some great helpers for the Sysops and Game Ops out there but the last line of defense is still the Sysop or Game Op being aware of the game. Letting it run without the Humint kills the game quickly when discovered by a person with no game play is involved. Automation is good but it can go way too far when it disrupts the game so quickly.

If all in the game played like this, it wouldn't be a game anymore. Just a bunch of automated scripts running 24/7 with no human contact. If we want a game like that, we should have a contest where all player submit their scripting. The Best scripting wins the game. Why bother even playing it in the first place. Just judge the script. Why bother with the game at all.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

quote:
That's fine if you want a 2 day game. Get two players doing the same thing and the game is gone in 2 days. It trashed the game to the point where it was not playable in one day.

The sad part of it is, the player wasn't even home. He was at another location playing as another person, a dupe. Plus, he was his own partner to boot. One Character does the damage and gets booted while the other character becomes his own partner and collects all the good stuff. IF that person hadn't goofed up in his chat, I would have never known and left it alone.

It also plastered where a person could get the scripting all over the place. I don't mind scripting but the Advertisements have to go.

I think that a player must use a bit of reason. There is no possible way that this player didn't know that the Dupers were not allowed. It was clearly posted with the penalty. And there is no way that that person wasn't aware that this scripting wouldn't trash the game. I tightened the game up to make it tough. One day to have enough horses to start blowing ports at that alarming rate was impossible. Yet it happened. I wished the Script Writers of that caliber were writing games or business applications. Think of the fantastic output we would enjoy(grin)

Yes, they do exist and some strictly use them. They start them, head over to their buddies house or use their dialup or second IP and enter the game as a dupe. You usually can't catch them unless they are extremely blantant. I even announce why I had a one person per IP to discourage Dupers.

I just want the others to know that there are some great helpers for the Sysops and Game Ops out there but the last line of defense is still the Sysop or Game Op being aware of the game. Letting it run without the Humint kills the game quickly when discovered by a person with no game play is involved. Automation is good but it can go way too far when it disrupts the game so quickly.

If all in the game played like this, it wouldn't be a game anymore. Just a bunch of automated scripts running 24/7 with no human contact. If we want a game like that, we should have a contest where all player submit their scripting. The Best scripting wins the game. Why bother even playing it in the first place. Just judge the script. Why bother with the game at all.




Duping and scripting are 2 completely different things. They are not related and shouldn't be lumped together. I believe it is a very good practice to delete and BAN players who dupe, but i think the majority of people who are skilled at using scripts do not dupe, as having skill with scripts takes first skill at the game.

A great script will not make a bad player good, it will however make a good player better. Great players are great because of their knowledge of the game, not their scripting abilities. I think most people would be very surprised at what scripts the really great players are running, even the "scripters" that are considered great. I know quite a few of the great players, and play with some of them and know for a fact that mostly they use automation and data scripts.

The actual win or lose comes down to the same thing it always has in Trade Wars, dedication, turn management and planning/strategy....

Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS
[/gold]

quote:
quote:
That's fine if you want a 2 day game. Get two players doing the same thing and the game is gone in 2 days. It trashed the game to the point where it was not playable in one day.

The sad part of it is, the player wasn't even home. He was at another location playing as another person, a dupe. Plus, he was his own partner to boot. One Character does the damage and gets booted while the other character becomes his own partner and collects all the good stuff. IF that person hadn't goofed up in his chat, I would have never known and left it alone.

It also plastered where a person could get the scripting all over the place. I don't mind scripting but the Advertisements have to go.

I think that a player must use a bit of reason. There is no possible way that this player didn't know that the Dupers were not allowed. It was clearly posted with the penalty. And there is no way that that person wasn't aware that this scripting wouldn't trash the game. I tightened the game up to make it tough. One day to have enough horses to start blowing ports at that alarming rate was impossible. Yet it happened. I wished the Script Writers of that caliber were writing games or business applications. Think of the fantastic output we would enjoy(grin)

Yes, they do exist and some strictly use them. They start them, head over to their buddies house or use their dialup or second IP and enter the game as a dupe. You usually can't catch them unless they are extremely blantant. I even announce why I had a one person per IP to discourage Dupers.

I just want the others to know that there are some great helpers for the Sysops and Game Ops out there but the last line of defense is still the Sysop or Game Op being aware of the game. Letting it run without the Humint kills the game quickly when discovered by a person with no game play is involved. Automation is good but it can go way too far when it disrupts the game so quickly.

If all in the game played like this, it wouldn't be a game anymore. Just a bunch of automated scripts running 24/7 with no human contact. If we want a game like that, we should have a contest where all player submit their scripting. The Best scripting wins the game. Why bother even playing it in the first place. Just judge the script. Why bother with the game at all.




Duping and scripting are 2 completely different things. They are not related and shouldn't be lumped together. I believe it is a very good practice to delete and BAN players who dupe, but i think the majority of people who are skilled at using scripts do not dupe, as having skill with scripts takes first skill at the game.

A great script will not make a bad player good, it will however make a good player better. Great players are great because of their knowledge of the game, not their scripting abilities. I think most people would be very surprised at what scripts the really great players are running, even the "scripters" that are considered great. I know quite a few of the great players, and play with some of them and know for a fact that mostly they use automation and data scripts.

The actual win or lose comes down to the same thing it always has in Trade Wars, dedication, turn management and planning/strategy....

Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS
[/gold]


Normally I would agree with you. But the duping just gave me the final justification, that's all. He was running a destructive script. The two games he was in as two people had all gone out of whack. I had aged the game 5 days to give the nasties a chance. He breazed in on the Ferengi like they weren't even there. I raised the prices of all the good stuff, shortened the scan range, and a host of other things to make the game tough. Inside the gameplay, it should have been a very nasty place to be in. Instead, it becomes a cakewalk.

I've played this game from the very beginning and can hang with most scripters running "Helper" scripts without scripting like most old Sysops with the love of the game can. But the game was never designed for this type of scripting where it disassembles the game and posts the URL so others can get the script. Since it was the first day, no harm done once I get rid on the player completely and do a comeplete reset. He killed everyone just as soon as they entered anyway. A reset happened and the game just got much tighter.

I figured out fast that it was only scripting when the same person under a different name at a different location was also playing. There is no planning involved here. The Planning was done by the script writer not the player.

I watch others use automated scripting and it assists them. Nothing wrong with that. But some of the scripting no longer assists. It plays the game for them so they can be on 24/7 and go fishing or, more likely, terrorize the neighborhood(g).

Supporting this type of scripting doesn't build the game and keep players, it supports the scripting 24/7 players going for the Billion of points and A billion Credits with the best of the best of everything where they are the only player except for others like them. This is a very small minority of the potential players.

I get requests from some to not allow things like this. One slips in once in awhile and trashes the games. I lose players for a bit. They come back later. Some of those folks can and do hang with the "Helper" scripters quite well and both types coexist well. But when the destructive player comes in, it kills the game fast. Usually in a day or two.

These destructive types play on other systems where they wouldn't dream of using them since that would be considered home territory. But they trash other servers in the meantime. Yet, they fond solice with the ones that they play against on the home systems always saying that it just can't be happening. It happens no matter how hard it's denied.




Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

It is possible to destroy ports on day one if:

1) The settings are liberal (i.e. lots of cash/figs to start)

2) There are too many turns (unlimited turn games have this problem).

How about you post your settings, so we can look at them? Rick has a ton of experience as a game op, and I've been running games longer than anyone else still active - if there's something odd about the settings we should spot it.

For instance if I want the Ferrengi to stand a chance I re-write them in the Gold editor. Ageing a game 5 days to help the Ferrengi is like ageing a kitten 5 days - they just don't have a chance to survive.

Of course duping is an ongoing problem, and one we will never be ride of. All you can hope is that the dupers spend so much time playing TW that either screen radiation kills their gonads, or they don't reproduce because they never leave their computers.

The Mad Hatter

i think mad hatter has brought us back to the right subject here. if the guy is killing ports, he has to have gained the resources to do it. what settings allowed him to gain so much firepower to kill "hundreds" of ports? there is simply nothing about scripting alone that can do that.

what are the settings for the game in question?

regards,
the reverend
icq 83250263
the.reverend@coastgames.com
http://thereverend.coastgames.com/tradewars/

quote:
i think mad hatter has brought us back to the right subject here. if the guy is killing ports, he has to have gained the resources to do it. what settings allowed him to gain so much firepower to kill "hundreds" of ports? there is simply nothing about scripting alone that can do that.

what are the settings for the game in question?

regards,
the reverend
icq 83250263
the.reverend@coastgames.com
http://thereverend.coastgames.com/tradewars/


Extremely tough. During their little stay, they should have at least met up with a well stocked nasty or two. I run Ferengi as they are in the game but I run extremely Nasty Romulans, Klingons and The Borg. The first part of the game should show the player using discretionary play rather than mow it down. Didn't happen. Next thing the game knew, the player had 50k + fighters and the most exporbantly priced ship in the game. And all Capitol Ships were exorbant to keep them out of everyones hands the first part of the game. He just ran over everything he came across.

What is sounds like is the Unlimited game isn't a game at all. It's just a scripter on an extended vacation while his computer runs things.

Rev, in that venue, your scripting is murder. The "Helper Scripting" turns out to be a very good thing but when it's put on 24/7 and on attack, it kills the game in just a few short hours.

Since you are the supreme Script writer in here, how about giving a little class on the dos and the don'ts.

BTW, I have extensive experience in the game and can usually put a pretty good dent on anyone except for the more destructive scripts. When you say Game OP, include us Sysops also in the ages. We are old fuddies who are looking for answer to prevent the destruction of the games in a matter of hours.

Help us set up the games where they can last more than a couple of hours. Dupers we can handle. Been doing that longer than most and can pick up a duper in about 2 minutes. Dupers are not too bright usually and slip up.





Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

quote:
Help us set up the games where they can last more than a couple of hours. Dupers we can handle. Been doing that longer than most and can pick up a duper in about 2 minutes. Dupers are not too bright usually and slip up.




Simple... low turns... high turn and unlimited are impossible to make last, it's the main reason the people that play them, play them. Aliens and Ferrengi no matter how strong won't slow a high turn or unlimited game down.

If you want a game to last and be a struggle you need 3 things:

1. Low turns (below 1k)
2. Competition
3. Balanced settings - Trade Wars is designed to give the defending player an advantage, the 1st thing most SysOp/GamOps normally do is circumvent this basic game premise and try and correct what most inexperienced SysOp/GamOps perceive as balancing red and blue so they up the colos, up the turns, up the blue ships attack odds, lower the TPW and make planets produce figs at 1:1 and build citadels in short periods. Then they wonder why on day 3 the game is over.

I am not saying you are inexperienced I am just saying that if you are surprised that someone early in the game was able to amass the resources needed to destroy "hundreds" of ports and close the game down (removing dupes from the equation), then you need to re-evaluate the settings



Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS

quote:
What is sounds like is the Unlimited game isn't a game at all. It's just a scripter on an extended vacation while his computer runs things.

Rev, in that venue, your scripting is murder. The "Helper Scripting" turns out to be a very good thing but when it's put on 24/7 and on attack, it kills the game in just a few short hours.


so what you are saying is that you are running an unlimited turns game. right?

basically if an unlimited turn game lasts more than 3-5 hours then it doesn't have very experienced players playing it. it sounds to me like you opened an unlimited turn game and someone used a world ssm script in there. i personally don't have one available to the public, but i can think of at least two versions out there that are decent. any dumb schmuck can use these scripts and make millions of credits - this is how they made enough money to kill "hundreds" of ports.

the cure for this problem - if you consider it a problem - is to simply not run unlimited turn games. period. stick to the 700-2000 turns range and games should last a lot longer.

regards,
the reverend
icq 83250263
the.reverend@coastgames.com
http://thereverend.coastgames.com/tradewars/

p.s. i'm not going to give a lecture on the do's and don'ts of scripting. if it can be written there is nothing you or i can do to keep people from writing and using it.

regards,
the reverend
icq 83250263
the.reverend@coastgames.com
http://thereverend.coastgames.com/tradewars/

quote:
Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.


i just visited your site and you have this disclaimer:

quote:
NO SCRIPTING THAT GETS AROUND THE
TURNS OF THE GAME. THIS INCLUDES
CIM AND OTHERS LIKE IT. USING
ANY OF THESE WILL RESULT IN BANNING.
WE LOST 2 TODAY 1 DAY IN FOR RUNNING
SOME PRETTY NASTY SCRIPTS AND DEST-
OYING PORTS LIKE BUTTER. JUST IN
CASE YOU THINK YOU WON'T GET BAGGED


i think you are seriously confused about what a script can do - a script CANNOT GET AROUND THE TURNS OF THE GAME. scripts only play as you would - it obeys the same rules that playing manually does. as for unlimited turns games, if you have unlimited turns, whats to stop you from playing 24/7?

regards,
the reverend
icq 83250263
the.reverend@coastgames.com
http://thereverend.coastgames.com/tradewars/

A script cannot do anything that a human player sitting at his keyboard cannot do. I cannot defeat the turns setting of a game, cannot exploit the game in any why that a human player couldn't.

Do not expect a unlimited or high turn game to last more than a couple days, a week at most. Some of the best and brightest sysops have tried to create unlimited turn games that actually last for a while, and I have yet to see anyone capable of pulling this off without implementing no attack rules and the like.

If you don't want players to run rampant with 24/7 WorldSST and WorldSSM scripts, don't run unlimited turn games. That's the -only- solution to the problem. There's no way you can catch every player running a script, and if you can't catch them all, even trying to stop them is a waste of time because just a single player will still be able to unbalance the game in less than a couple hours, such as while you sleep.

Scripts don't throw games out of balance. Scripts aren't inherently bad. It's the players that use the scripts... such as in your case running a script despite you having posted rules against them.

Anyways, I'm going to close this topic until I get back because I can't run up my cell phone and long distance bill dialing into my home system to get on the net and babysit the forum. I'll unlock after I get back on the 26th.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

quote:
A script cannot do anything that a human player sitting at his keyboard cannot do. I cannot defeat the turns setting of a game, cannot exploit the game in any why that a human player couldn't.

Do not expect a unlimited or high turn game to last more than a couple days, a week at most. Some of the best and brightest sysops have tried to create unlimited turn games that actually last for a while, and I have yet to see anyone capable of pulling this off without implementing no attack rules and the like.

If you don't want players to run rampant with 24/7 WorldSST and WorldSSM scripts, don't run unlimited turn games. That's the -only- solution to the problem. There's no way you can catch every player running a script, and if you can't catch them all, even trying to stop them is a waste of time because just a single player will still be able to unbalance the game in less than a couple hours, such as while you sleep.

Scripts don't throw games out of balance. Scripts aren't inherently bad. It's the players that use the scripts... such as in your case running a script despite you having posted rules against them.

Anyways, I'm going to close this topic until I get back because I can't run up my cell phone and long distance bill dialing into my home system to get on the net and babysit the forum. I'll unlock after I get back on the 26th.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support


I only have one game like that now. When it ends, I will drop it also. But the problem really isn't the scripters as a group. It's one maybe three out there that their game IS to disrupt as many games as they can. I narrow it down on my system as maybe 3 people. Actually, I think it's one using cable or dsl and a Dialup with his buddy next door. Chances are, these character(s) are playing this game on many other systems as well except for their "Home" system who will, by all rights, stick up for them. "Little Johnny would never...".

It's also a way to damage other servers so people may not go there. It's an age old BBS Problem that those from the old BBS "wars" remember well. On TWGS, even the moderate turns games gets these fine folks. In the long run, it doesn't work but it does damage along the way. It does damage the game and that is all that I am care about.

Like you, Lisa, I don't play anymore. I just try and put up the best output product I can. I do monitor the game enough to ensure the troublesome ones are not there. But I like to let the game unfold exaclty as it is going to go without interferance from anyone not actually playing the game.

I do want to thank all for their advice. It just means that NO unlimited games will be done in the future and I anticipate the release of V4 of Tradewars where most of these things will be taken care of.

As it is now, the Game has been disrupted to a point where something has to change to bring it back into some senblance of order. I do know that John is looking at those things and will take whatever appropriate action he feels he needs to on the new version.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.