Hi All ;
I have asked a couple of times to Rick (by email)
but got no responce .

So here are my rants & raves :
From the past to the present day ,TradeWars Game Play
this too is my $.02 ...

1)
SD is too weak in a gold game.
It first became destroyable in the multi player version.
Then with TWGS Tedit allowed for more powerful ships and SD stood no chance.
John decided to allow SysOp to rstore SD just by porting.
I propose that IF gold game is sellected in bang ..
Then SD be generated at a strength of a SD blown 3 times before.
This will make it real hard , the next few more times .
Thus prolonging game.

Always thinking of ways to keep games going.
2)
Carbo's .. why not increase the max a ship can hold .. say to 150k
Tedit will allow ships to be 8:1 odds and max figs/shields to 400k/16k. So why not raise carbo's to take that puppy out
That should keep things interesting
3)
Why in MBBS games, are port bust automaticlly set to clear in 1 day
I remember it was 3 days up to 7 days depending on server.
Why cant this be set in tedit like gold instead of in bang options
Or at least make it default to 3 days clear ..not one .. this gives too much advantage to REDS.
4)
Ships with No Pods .. This was the flag for no capture ..
Can this flag be replaced ?
An option in game allowed players to save $$ in ships with no pods (uncapturable).
Thats right , store carbo's you can sell for fast $$ if it didnt get used !!
This all got changed in 1.01.25 and above. Now it depends on if it were manned or not ..

Here is my pug ... Lets vote over these things .. SysOps ..

[url="http://geocities.com/videotees/twars.html"]Vid's World on Guam[/url]
telnet://vidsworld.no-ip.org:2002

quote:
1)
SD is too weak in a gold game.
It first became destroyable in the multi player version.
Then with TWGS Tedit allowed for more powerful ships and SD stood no chance.
John decided to allow SysOp to rstore SD just by porting.
I propose that IF gold game is sellected in bang ..
Then SD be generated at a strength of a SD blown 3 times before.
This will make it real hard , the next few more times .
Thus prolonging game.


The problem here is in GameOps that don't make balanced edits, not in StarDock being too weak. Just don't play in games where ships have 8:1 odds and such. Those games simply aren't fun anyway.

quote:
2)
Carbo's .. why not increase the max a ship can hold .. say to 150k
Tedit will allow ships to be 8:1 odds and max figs/shields to 400k/16k. So why not raise carbo's to take that puppy out
That should keep things interesting


Corbos do 20 damage each regardless of the odds of the destroying ship, so the most carbo you would ever need to destroy a "stock edited" (i.e. with tedit, the 400k and 16k maxes, NOT with some of the external editors available which allow ships with millions or billions of fighters) ship is 20800. The max corbo a ship can hold is already configurable in tedit up to 6000 (or enough to destroy any balanced ship), and I personally believe in the 1500 limit anyway. Powerful ships shouldn't have to worry that corbo is going to destroy them. They'll already lose a lot of assets in the figs they lose even without their ship also being lost.

quote:
3)
Why in MBBS games, are port bust automaticlly set to clear in 1 day
I remember it was 3 days up to 7 days depending on server.
Why cant this be set in tedit like gold instead of in bang options
Or at least make it default to 3 days clear ..not one .. this gives too much advantage to REDS.


Even with 500 day clear, reds will always rule in MBBS games. The whole point of MBBS mode is that an exploitable bug was specifically added back INTO the game (megarob) because reds were all whiny about only being able to really really dominate non-MBBS games instead of really really really dominating (note the extra really) Still, I never play or host MBBS games anyway. I'd have no problem with tedit letting you change bust clears when in MBBS mode. I think the more configurable, the better...

quote:
4)
Ships with No Pods .. This was the flag for no capture ..
Can this flag be replaced ?
An option in game allowed players to save $$ in ships with no pods (uncapturable).
Thats right , store carbo's you can sell for fast $$ if it didnt get used !!
This all got changed in 1.01.25 and above. Now it depends on if it were manned or not ..


I think this was changed specifically BECAUSE of the exploit you mention, being able to store cash in corbo'd scouts. Excess money should be vulnerable in *some* way. Unmanned corbo'd scouts are now vulnerable. Deal with it. Either buy fighters with the creds or make sure any citadel with cash in it is extremely well-defended.

Regarding the bust clear comment...

I agree with Xentropy on the megarob aspect (along with his other replies as well)...but I also want to add this..

No matter what the bust clear is, if a corporation runs a streamline red/blue corp setup, bust clear will never matter. As long as you have two reds cashing together, they will clear each other's busts anyways.

The only way that setting the default MBBS bust clear to 3+ days will be effective is if there are solo reds trying to cash because they have no teammates to clear busts for them. Other than that, the bust clear variable really has no effective use in my opinion..

Fuseblown
http://www.thestardock.com

quote:
Regarding the bust clear comment...

I agree with Xentropy on the megarob aspect (along with his other replies as well)...but I also want to add this..

No matter what the bust clear is, if a corporation runs a streamline red/blue corp setup, bust clear will never matter. As long as you have two reds cashing together, they will clear each other's busts anyways.

The only way that setting the default MBBS bust clear to 3+ days will be effective is if there are solo reds trying to cash because they have no teammates to clear busts for them. Other than that, the bust clear variable really has no effective use in my opinion..

Fuseblown
http://www.thestardock.com

This is all true .. but your right .. the lone player ..

I started this post to gain input from player/sysops
BUT would like a POLL to see a definate result.

I like thing ballanced also but in trading twx files (game setting),
not all games are ballance YOUR/MY way ..
in most cases I leave things alone .
BTW Xentropy your calculations 400k figs/16k shields , 6000 carbo's
doesnt come close .
And just because you'de buy fighters/shields for planets doesnt mean
that everyone has to play that way.
Like a chess game .. we all have the same pieces , use them any way you like.
I just dont see why when this game was designed , there were scouts , with no pod and could not be captured.
Storing all my $$ in carbos and xfer from ship to ship for port robbing/ssting and filling max carbos ..
Another way of life changes
This all kept me busy ..LOL
j/k
Anyways , thanks for the few commits so far ..
But Rick Meads if you read this .. please answer my emails.
or better yet , post a nice POLL on this thread.


[url="http://geocities.com/videotees/twars.html"]Vid's World on Guam[/url]
telnet://vidsworld.no-ip.org:2002




Edited by - Vid Kid on May 11 2002 06:14:13 AM

quote:
BTW Xentropy your calculations 400k figs/16k shields , 6000 carbo's
doesnt come close .


Read my post again, I said 20800 corbo for a 400k/16k ship. The 6000 will take out any BALANCED ship, though (i.e. up to 100k/16k) easily. And any ship above 100k fighters should be pretty secure in knowing a measely 10M investment isn't going to take them out.

quote:
And just because you'de buy fighters/shields for planets doesnt mean
that everyone has to play that way.
Like a chess game .. we all have the same pieces , use them any way you like.


Agreed, so store your money if you like, but the only means of storage are either on your character or in a citadel. Both of which are dangerous, and EVERY method should be dangerous. Having a method with NO danger is imbalanced. Storing corbo on unmanned scouts had no danger, so it was fixed.

To fall back on your chess analogy, if every piece could move like a Queen, even if everyone had those same pieces, the game would still be imbalanced. Balance isn't just having access to the same things everyone else has, but also not giving ANYONE access to too much power. Infinite power applied in infinite directions is a recipe for disaster.

This is a big reason why I will never play on or host a game with 1 colo/fig planet edits and 400k fighter 8:1 odd ships. Those games are just chess with 16 queens on each end of the board. Mass slaughter without having to stop to think--no strategy at all. I find it ironic that TWChess uses chess as its namesake when the strategy there is almost nonexistent because of the edits. It should be TWPoker or something since it's far more about luck of the draw when everyone has infinite resources.

Granted, storing cash in unmanned scouts isn't exactly the same as driving around in a 400k fighter 8:1 odd ship you filled with fighters with the help of a planet that makes 1.5M figs a day, but it IS an invulnerable strategy (someone WILL either pod or lose far more resources than you taking your money away), and invulnerable strategies need to be removed.

Citadel cash makes you interest, anyway. Use citadels to store your credits. Just make sure the planet is well-defended. That's the balance of strategy involved in savings. Do you spend 1/3 of it to make sure it costs someone as much to get to the cash as they'd get from the cash, do you spend more than 1/3 so they're losing more than they gain, or do you save every credit you have for maximum interest but leave it more vulnerable?

Every step you make should have a decision-making process involved. The decision to throw 1500 corbo on an unmanned scout wasn't particularly involved because you KNEW someone would lose more than you (minimally one podding for the day) if they wanted to take your money away from you, and had NO chance of actually claiming that money for themselves. Especially in a limited-death tourney game, it was a no-lose situation for the one doing the storage..

quote:
No matter what the bust clear is, if a corporation runs a streamline red/blue corp setup, bust clear will never matter. As long as you have two reds cashing together, they will clear each other's busts anyways.


Don't mean to be a pain, but technically you're wrong. Two red players are quite capable of bustlocking a pair of ports. One busts at one, the second busts at the other... and its time to move on to greener pastures. Bust clear doesn't matter only if there are three reds cashing at the same time.

But again, if one red has a very good run, no busts, and runs down his or her turns, that leaves the potential for bustlocking for the remaining two reds.

Setting a bust clear any higher than a couple two or three days only harms smaller teams and solo players. It'll never make a difference to full size corps that run tight cashing operations. It took a long time for anyone to convince me of this despite how obvious it is.

Lisa M. Wilson
aka Rave

quote:
SD is too weak in a gold game.
It first became destroyable in the multi player version.
Then with TWGS Tedit allowed for more powerful ships and SD stood no chance.
John decided to allow SysOp to rstore SD just by porting.
I propose that IF gold game is sellected in bang ..
Then SD be generated at a strength of a SD blown 3 times before.
This will make it real hard , the next few more times .
Thus prolonging game.


Agreed. One solution here is to make StarDock invincible. While it solves the problem completely it takes away a major game tactic. The current problem is that that tactic is far too easy for teams these days. Even upping the defensive rating of StarDock by three wouldn't solve the problem in heavily edited games... while it would make it much more difficult in stock games.

There's no good solution for this in v3, so don't expect any changes in regards to how StarDock is destroyed.

quote:
2)
Carbo's .. why not increase the max a ship can hold .. say to 150k
Tedit will allow ships to be 8:1 odds and max figs/shields to 400k/16k. So why not raise carbo's to take that puppy out
That should keep things interesting


Because then you only increase the problem of unbalanced edits. Honestly there isn't much of a reason to have a ship like you describe above, so there isn't really a reason to have a ship that can hold 150,000 units of carbo. There's really no call for a ship to carry 6,000 even. You can't balance edits by allowing additional edits to go overboard... kinda like two wrongs don't make a right.

Again, the maximums for edited ships are already in place, and no matter how badly they can affect game balance, they're entrenched and won't be going anywhere.

Again, no reasonable options exist in v3 to fix this.

quote:
3)
Why in MBBS games, are port bust automaticlly set to clear in 1 day
I remember it was 3 days up to 7 days depending on server.
Why cant this be set in tedit like gold instead of in bang options
Or at least make it default to 3 days clear ..not one .. this gives too much advantage to REDS.


See my previous post as to why lower bust clears are actually beneficial for -all- players in many circumstances. Granted, if it's an MBBS emulator, it -should- emulate MBBS as closely as possible. I'll talk to JP about this.

quote:
4)
Ships with No Pods .. This was the flag for no capture ..
Can this flag be replaced ?
An option in game allowed players to save $$ in ships with no pods (uncapturable).
Thats right , store carbo's you can sell for fast $$ if it didnt get used !!
This all got changed in 1.01.25 and above. Now it depends on if it were manned or not ..


There is no mention in TW revision history of this change, and yet it happened. I discussed this with JP briefly after our teleconference chat on the BBS and if I remember correctly, he wasn't aware of intentionally making that change. This is an issue I'll raise with him again when I get a chance.

Bottom line of storing cash on ships is that its risky. First, you never get back as much cash as you spent when you sell the ship, even if it has 0 portings on it, and second, all it takes is a couple people willing to get podded for you to lose a -considerable- amount of cash.

It's not like the investment is protected in any way. If I thought someone was storing cash on scouts, I'd be more than happy to trade in my two poddings a day to deny them access to tens of millions of credits. Couldn't think of a better deal... a merchant freighter and a couple fighters costs my opponent millions of credz? Sounds like a winning investment to me.

So, it would be a valid tactic in my opinion.

Lisa M. Wilson
aka Rave

quote:
quote:
No matter what the bust clear is, if a corporation runs a streamline red/blue corp setup, bust clear will never matter. As long as you have two reds cashing together, they will clear each other's busts anyways.


Don't mean to be a pain, but technically you're wrong. Two red players are quite capable of bustlocking a pair of ports. One busts at one, the second busts at the other... and its time to move on to greener pastures. Bust clear doesn't matter only if there are three reds cashing at the same time.


Actually any two reds can cash an infinite amount of turns by clearing each other's busts...

With three Colts/ports.

Red one SST's all three until she busts at two of the three. Red two SST's those two until one busts. Then red one starts SSTing again with the third port she hadn't busted at yet and the one red two busted at. Once she busts, red two starts up again using the third clear port and whichever of the two red one had just busted at. Repeat ad infinitum.

While it's true a pair isn't enough, three ports make fuseblown's original point valid.

quote:
While it's true a pair isn't enough, three ports make fuseblown's original point valid.


Yep, you're right. I was thinking of two ports and two ships.

Sometimes I make the least sense when I should be able to make the most sense.

Lisa M. Wilson
aka Rave

Hehe Xentropy beat me to the response.

Fuseblown
http://www.thestardock.com

quote:
Hehe Xentropy beat me to the response.


Not only did he beat you to the response, he was kind enough to send me a message that was nice and polite and yet made me feel -really- stupid (considering I usually play red). This wonderful message allowed me to arrive with TransWarp speed and correct my previous statement before I really got a lot of egg-on-de-face.

Lisa M. Wilson
aka Rave