Until recently, I always paid to have limpets removed at SD, then I was taught to clear limpets by entering and exiting the game. I was then hit with this statement by a player:

"This is exactly what I've been talking about when I say that people do things to get around the rules.

Relogging to clear limpets wasn't intended to be a feature to use. It's simply an old setting that's been in existence since 1994, and nobody has gotten around to changing it yet. It's been on the 'to do' list since EIS took over TW, but they have too many other things to fix and never get around to it. "

Now I am confused as to whether or not I am utilizing a bug. Could someone please clarify this for me?

Thank you.

Because I have been out of circulation for 8 years, I can't tell you whats been happening through the last couple fixes, and versions. What I can tell you is that I have started playing over the past several months, and a common tactic I am known for is surrounding SD with Limpets. When they attach, and even when that player logs off, I still have a lock on them. I'm not saying that 'sometimes' logging off may work the way you describe, but it doesn't happen all the time, otherwise I wouldn't have a dozen or so Active Limpets while no one was even online. As far as utilizing a bug? There are far more beneficial bugs out there to worry about than the 5000 credits you save if you were able to do this, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over the morality of the issue.[;)]

Hope this helps!

Taz's Underground
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/tazunder

I guess the question you have to ask yourself is "Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya... punk?" No just kidding, but the question you DO have to ask yourself is where do you draw the line at utilizing bugs. I mean, how "benificial" does the bug have to be before its not just conveniant, but its cheating. I personally think ANY bug use is undermining the spirit of the game. However, most people think "everyone uses them, so why not? If I dont use them because of my morality, then I am at a conciderable disadvantage". My response to that is that I feel much better about winning when I dont cheat by exployting known bugs. Although with some that are still out there, thats hard to do. Really hard, hence the good feeling when a win does happen. But with that in mind, if your in a league or something where you KNOW the calaber of the individual's expertiese, then sometimes you just have to do it to servive. I wish this was an open source project. I think thats the only way this game will survive the other projects the EISteam is wanting to start/finish that take priority over "that old TradeWars". I'm sure with such a tight community of players as this, and most of which I can probably assume have fairly complex backgrounds in computers (ie. programming), an open source project would fill in all the gapeing holes that still exist in V3.

So heres my challenge to EIS. Since you obviously want to COMPLETELY rewrite TW for V4, why not make the source to V3 openly available and get started on the new project? I'm sure you could still ask for reg fees for it, and us HONEST individuals would still pay for it, even though the source is out there to be tinkered with. Look at all the Linux versions out there that are making money.

I know, I know, its just a pipe dream, but I certinly wouldn't mind helping fill in some of the holes. And I'm a pretty good programmer if I do say so myself. [;)]

Just something to think about [:D]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. Lets say I hit a sector with 25 limpets in it. If i sit in the sector and exit the game and re-enter the game, the old limpet drops off and a new one latches on... I was taught to clear sectors this way when there are massive amounts of limpets in a sector... I never suspected it might be bug use, just thought it was intended to work that way... That is what I'm trying to clarify, whether it is cheating or using a bug that no one seems to care about...or good game playing


quote:Originally posted by Taz

Because I have been out of circulation for 8 years, I can't tell you whats been happening through the last couple fixes, and versions. What I can tell you is that I have started playing over the past several months, and a common tactic I am known for is surrounding SD with Limpets. When they attach, and even when that player logs off, I still have a lock on them. I'm not saying that 'sometimes' logging off may work the way you describe, but it doesn't happen all the time, otherwise I wouldn't have a dozen or so Active Limpets while no one was even online. As far as utilizing a bug? There are far more beneficial bugs out there to worry about than the 5000 credits you save if you were able to do this, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over the morality of the issue.[;)]

Hope this helps!

Taz's Underground
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/tazunder

I say to use the old dont ask dont tell theory. I mean if someone is going to complain about a 5000 credit fee woo hoo. Cry me a river. I sure hate it for them. Its part of the game and for a small thing like that it should not worry.
DEMON
(OYO)

Oh, ok, see you learn something new everyday! I hadn't heard about that one. That WOULD be a considerable exploitation, because now you are saving on numerous turns from not having to run back and forth to SD to clear a sector of them. Credit value is still relatively low though, compared to how much an experience player can make in a short amount of time. It does undermine the spirit of the game and isn't a bug I would use. As Shinare says, how good do you feel by winning without the use of bugs at all. A good example is my 11 year old son. He loves his Nintendo 64 as do I[:D] We play Zelda, and we have the Prima Strategy Guide. He uses it to complete the game, where as I don't use it at all. He boasts about having 'beat' the Zelda game, what I teach him is that he really did not beat the game because he used what someone else learned and wrote. When I beat the game, it was with no prior knowledge of what was around the next corner, or how to solve a puzzle. My son now see's the value of being able to say, I beat the game, and I did it on my own! But this is just one traders opinion! Above all, this is a game, and it purpose is to have fun, so to each their own. Hope my 2 cents helps!

Taz's Underground

I agree with you. My problem is, I don't know if it's a cheat, a bug or a legitmate play tactic. Other than player opinion, I haven't been able to get anyone who is in a position with eis or Jp to tell me if I'm violating any rules or cheating or not.

I appreciate everyone who's taking the time to respond.
[:D]


quote:Originally posted by Taz

Oh, ok, see you learn something new everyday! I hadn't heard about that one. That WOULD be a considerable exploitation, because now you are saving on numerous turns from not having to run back and forth to SD to clear a sector of them. Credit value is still relatively low though, compared to how much an experience player can make in a short amount of time. It does undermine the spirit of the game and isn't a bug I would use. As Shinare says, how good do you feel by winning without the use of bugs at all. A good example is my 11 year old son. He loves his Nintendo 64 as do I[:D] We play Zelda, and we have the Prima Strategy Guide. He uses it to complete the game, where as I don't use it at all. He boasts about having 'beat' the Zelda game, what I teach him is that he really did not beat the game because he used what someone else learned and wrote. When I beat the game, it was with no prior knowledge of what was around the next corner, or how to solve a puzzle. My son now see's the value of being able to say, I beat the game, and I did it on my own! But this is just one traders opinion! Above all, this is a game, and it purpose is to have fun, so to each their own. Hope my 2 cents helps!

Taz's Underground

it's not a bug.

if it was a bug then there would be common agreement on it.
e.g. when the 0 turn product moving bug appeared, it was quickly declared a bug and players were asked not to use it in tournaments, and it was quickly fixed by JP.
e.g. when sdt appeared, it became accepted as a valid red tactic, even though it *clearly* wasn't intended by the author.
e.g. when sdr became widely used, JP made retreating cost a turn.
e.g. when sdf became widely used, JP made fleeing cost a turn half the time - note sdf is *still* feasible and more efficient than sdt, i.e. its *not* a bug.

so #1 you can't argue that if it wasn't intended then its a bug; #2 you can't argue that if it has been altered (e.g. sdr and sdf) then it's a bug - note you can still sdr if you want to, but its just not as efficient as sdt, and sdf is still a reasonable tactic; #3 you can't argue that if you can do it, it's not a bug. the only thing you can really argue is that a certain tactic is widely recognized as a bug.

since it's pretty much common knowledge that limpets work this way, and it's widely used and NOT considered a bug by most players, then until a word comes down from on high, i.e. JP changes it, then it should be considered a fair tactic.

if you want to put 250 limpets in a sector, you risk getting them all cleared when you are offline. that's just the risk you take. and nobody is stopping you from doing the same to others.

quote:Originally posted by SweetLittleGirl

I agree with you. My problem is, I don't know if it's a cheat, a bug or a legitmate play tactic. Other than player opinion, I haven't been able to get anyone who is in a position with eis or Jp to tell me if I'm violating any rules or cheating or not.

I appreciate everyone who's taking the time to respond.
[:D]



SLG,
I think it's a bug. I don't believe that limpets are working the way they were intended by their maker. An active limpet should only drop off when it's being replaced by a limpet with a different owner. That a limpet gets replaced by another one that belongs to the same player/corp is just silly. Suppose you enter a sector with 25 limpets. Only one attaches to your ship at a time. How do the other 24 limpets know not to attach to your hull too? They must somehow talk to each other or your ship would be covered in them as soon as you entered the sector. Since that is true, then when you exit and reenter, the remaining limpets should already know that one of them is already attached. I'd be suing the manufacturer if such things were possible, or at least demanding a full refund.

Of course, landing an IG on a planet shouldn't be possible, but people do it anyway. People go out of their way to get around time limits. There are many things like this that go against the spirit of the game, but since everyone else does it, "it must be ok!" [xx(]

Where do people draw the line? Removing 25 limpets using the exit/enter strategy nets a savings of 240,000 credits. Suppose I found a really cool 0 turn money making exploit that is really not too much different from the exit and enter limpet removal tactic, or some of the other 'socially acceptable' bugs. Should I use it? Could someone tell me the difference between saving 240,000 credits with limpet removal, playing for 8 hours in a game that has a 4 hour time limit, finding out who is online in the game you are playing when the sysop has turned that feature off, and making 240,000 credits in 0 turns? They all go against the spirit of the rules or the sysop's desires, yet people seem to think that the first three are acceptable. The really funny thing is that you can easily make 240k in 0 turns playing Tri-Con, so there is already something in the game that allows you to make money for 0 turns. Of course, the "Tri-con Exploit" requires an initial investment, but then so does Megga-Rob, and I don't see many people calling it a bug anymore. [:D]

So, the Limpet removal trick you are using is a bug, and you are a dirty little cheater for using it. [;)] But don't let it stop you, cause if you want to be competitive, if you want to win in tournaments, you have to cheat just like the rest of us! [:0]

Rev, I understand what your saying but our opinions on what a *bug* is are different, to me a bug is anything not intended by the original programming. What comes into question is whether or not a particular bug or 'Unintentionally Programmed Tactic' (to use a more neutral term) is acceptable with the players. I myself use the Red Tactics that are considered UPT's without any internal conflicts, mostly because they are so well known, found in just about any strategy guide, and built into most helpers. I am curious though, how many guides talk about this (I honestly don't know), and how many helper programs have a limpet removal script (I also don't know). You would know better than me. As for how well known this particular UPT is. Well All my limpets get removed from around SD in one day, however when I set 20-30 limpets at someone front door (after finding them from the one's around SD!), those stay and get tripped everytime that player logs on and goes out. I assume because of the journey they have to take to SD to clear them (because they don't know about the Limpet clearing UPT),or maybe they don't know that they are there, or maybe at that point they just don't care about their front door having a trip wire![:D]

Happy Tradin'

Taz's Underground

Instead of exiting and entering the game, just move in an out of the sector. A quick script will do the trick.
I don't consider this a bug.
earth.

quote:
Instead of exiting and entering the game, just move in an out of the sector. A quick script will do the trick.
I don't consider this a bug.
earth.

The deal with quit/login is that it uses zero (0) turns. In Unlim thats not a huge factor, but in turn based it is. Like was said earlier, its a 0 turn way to make money (because you didnt have to spend the money to remove the limpits). Another thing thats seems to have been left out is the turns it takes to go to SD to remove them. You could spend your whole day doing this without the exploit and end up with 0 turns left (if the limpits were coded correctly to not fall off when another of the same person attaches, hence BUG). But also heed what was said before: Use it, because everyone else (who exploits bugs) is.

Atleast thats how I see it anyways IMHO. [|)]

I doubt that the person who programmed TW coded it specifically to allow multiple limpets to be removed from a sector by entering and quitting the game. Perhaps the programmers can comment on it. I don't see where it says "bug abuse" or "cheating" anyplace. Perhaps you could post the whole article here?

You wrote the original article in question as xolf in another forum so I see no need to copy it for you here. although you didn't exactly use the word cheat.. you did say in using this tactic i wasn't really interesting in playing the game, but more interested in using the game parameters or mechinics to further my own goals.

I agree, it would be nice if someone in a position with EIS would make it clear as to the proper use of this tactic.


quote:Originally posted by colagada

I doubt that the person who programmed TW coded it specifically to allow multiple limpets to be removed from a sector by entering and quitting the game. Perhaps the programmers can comment on it. I don't see where it says "bug abuse" or "cheating" anyplace. Perhaps you could post the whole article here?

This isn't so much a bug as it is a "leftover feature" from the transition from single player door game to multiplayer standalone server. I agree that allowing players to enter and exit the game repeatedly to clear a sector of limpets (or to drain planet q-guns of fuel ore) doesn't make much sense, but it's an established tactic and there would be little or no support for removing this "feature."

It's kind of like the megarob bug in MBBS Trade Wars. That bug was so popular it's now a part of the game, and is no longer considered a bug.

So you're fine, SLG. Clear limpets away without worrying about it. It's an accepted strategy and you probably won't find too many people that will claim it's exploitation of a bug.