"No offense, but now that I've been looking at the new version, I don't see much to impress so far"

Kinda negative, no?

I don't need to defend my tolerance of opposing views. What bothers me is the unproductive complaints about options that won't effect you in the slightest. Make a substantive argument as to why the proposed option won't do what it's supposed to do, as Singlularity so often does, and I'll have no problem with that. I may need to find out for myself rather than take your word for it, but I won't have any problem with the argument.

Can we please just keep to the constructive debate? I don't mind constructive criticisms of my work, but "don't see much to impress so far" is far from constructive. It's negative and insulting.

That is my honest opinion of what I have seen so far. I don't sugarcoat my opinions/evaluations to appease people either in the forums or rating an employee's performance at work. If everyone that surrounds a person is a "yes man" then someone isn't needed.

The proposed option (missing warp sectors) will do exactly what it is supposed to do, break scripts and make people move by hand. Unless the missing sectors are random, then it is a simple matter of sitting in the sector I found missing and density torp people's turns away. Random missing sectors would pose a problem in that people (either solo or corp sending 1 each) would do multiple "move 1234" until everything fills in.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Other than ZTM what scripts will this change possibly break?

I'm not certain I'm a fan of this change, but if it only takes JP a short time to make the change, we can try it on the beta server to see how it feels.

I can only respond on how it would affect scripts where I have seen the source so....

How would you mow to dock? You don't have the sectors so you move one at a time. I think i have a work around figured out, but it would still be risky.

The bubble finder script requires an accurate ZTM as does finding candidate for the Class 0 sectors.

Checking for backdoors to Terra, Dock or a DE requires setting an avoid and plotting. [Edit] This could probably still be done. [/Edit]

Most unlim cashing scripts would have issues in plotting to refurb if their jump point is killed.

Unlim truce gridder scripts of the mow variety would all crash.

My colonizer would fail unless you have visited the sectors - at the best it would calculate the information wrong.

World cash scripts (ptrade that uses the best route) and most likely the mass cit builder script would fail.

ZTMs are key to many different things other than hunting down an opponent.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

You are right Prom .. that is just a few of the scripts .. and the most important .. as Cruncher has harped about ..
What about the new player to a game that is days old .. well he will be at the mercy of those with maps and plotted courses.

I think scripters might figure a way to gather some data because the first and last plots will have to show.

But to say the least .. This will break all helpers but zoc and twx
the twx scripts and zoc scripts will suffer as well.

A positive thing , it might chase any old players away and bring in a bunch of new players looking for free stuff (server program).
Or it might help drive the older players to servers still using earlier versions of TWGS.

So in my case , I roll back to a version I'm happy with and gain players in doing so.
(this version 2.07)
It doesn't seem to have any issues except that you can't use slot Z for a game anymore.

[edited] One thing has been on my mind , if so many players are looking to play the old style (and J.P. wanting to bring it back).
Why don't these players go to places that host the originals ?
Or is it cause they were not so popular that they died out ?

Why not just make a link page so those servers can advertise on same pages as JumpGate.
Giving both sides a chance and players some choices & leaving each server as it is.
[\edited]

as i recall, everyone WANTS to play like that. theres a whole bevy of untapped players out there who hate scripts and scripting. so we have to make the game unplayable for everyone but them or they wont play.
now, i dont know who these people are. i think that the bulk of people saying that are the type of people who want to let you down easy(well, i WOULD play but...), and thats if they arent a figment of crunchers imagination. otherwise they would be playing now... theres a version of 1.03 running right? and an hvs? we got a lot of guys there?

but, if you wanted 'break most scripts' on a toggle this would do it nicely.

I'm sorry, but it continues to blow my mind that the argument is, "if you add this OPTION, people won't upgrade to the latest version so they can avoid that OPTION." Or "players will go to servers running the older version." Why? What if you just stick to the games where that option isn't running? Why not go to any server where that option isn't being used in EVERY GAME, regardless of what version is running?

When I make a change that is all inclusive and forced down the throat of every op who runs the new version, and every player who plays it, then sure, you'll have a valid point.

Now, I don't deny that it will change the game and that it won't appeal to the players who love the game the way it is. But the game is and will be there for the players who love the game the way it is. I'm trying to shake things up a bit and see if the players I hear from on a daily basis who are turned off by too much scripting would enjoy these new settings. And I'm inspired by how popular the heavily controlled building games are. Right there, that's evidence that there is a group of players who love this game, but not as it's typically played. How many others are there who don't have a game style available to them so they just don't play? I'd like to find out. And WHAT'S THE HARM? That's the point. It's an option. There IS no harm. Unless the change is so popular that everyone uses it, and you, in the minority, are left behind playing wherever the older version happens to be running, hoping they don't upgrade. I guess that would be kind of sad...

It's survival of the fittest with options. If they're good, they get used. If they're not, they get ignored. As long as default is the current standard, nobody is going to use a setting unless it proves to be popular with a group of players. And I don't need to know that thousands of people are going to use a setting or option in order to put it in. Just ask Vid about his blue planet option. I don't think anyone else will benefit from that option, but I added support for it for VID. If anyone wants an option, I consider it. And believe me, I've had lots of requests for a way to control mapping. I don't know if it's possible, but I'm exploring options. That may not impress you, Prom, but it's not about you at the moment.

As to the question, why not just go back to the originals. Well, some do. But there are undeniable reasons to play the current game, not the least of which is TWGS itself, which despite what Prom says, is a valued tool for managing games. But even for the players, the older games are no longer supported and have known bugs, while the current game offers the hope that bugs and tactics that break the game will be addressed. So if a simple feature, like setting a game for single-player, can return the current game to a state very similar to that of v2, isn't it better to do that than ask players to go find v2 or even port v2 to TWGS? I've debated that question and I believe that the best option is to support alternative modes in v3. And from there, the debate is "how should I do this?", not "SHOULD I do this?".

Oh, and Vid, working on the disappearing Z game now. I fixed that once already :(

Ok, Vid, disappearing Z is fixed (again). I fixed it in TWGS itself before, but failed to fix it in the log file viewer since it's a separate app now.

the acid test here for all the guys who say they want the oft quoted old school feel. now it can be done- you have built it, will they come? i guess the harm is if they dont

i must have field of dreams stuck in my thinkbox

I personally don't think there is any harm if they don't come. The harm is in not trying. I'm not going to be embarrassed for having tried and failed. And I've already committed my time on this project, over a year now, so what's a little bit more. And even if nobody else ever comes to this game, my primary goal has already been met. I'm satisfied with what I have accomplished here. Now I'm just playing around with whatever time I have left.

I need to make a commitment to myself that I'll flip this around and spend 60% of my free time working on TW and 40% of it arguing for my right to the other 60%. Seems I'm spending way too much time on pointless arguments, not on how to do something, but on whether or not it should be done. Such a waste of time...

Interesting statement since I never thought it was about me, I thought it was about players and getting honest feedback. I know some don't handle honest feedback well, and that is truly sad. I do like your implication though since it tells me a lot about the person behind the screen.

The TWGS is something that I never said was not a valuable tool, also an interesting concept from you. It is that, I just stated that the current version hasn't impressed me at this time. Really why would it impress me other than banging a game w/o taking the server down? I never had issues with the previous TWGS, it was always stable, and didn't cause issues with the systems I ran it on. The options really aren't something I would use - an analogy would be that Windows Vista and 7 don't impress me because XP does everything I want and is stable. A valid truce mode would impress me because of its impact on allowing players to enjoy a truce w/o some idiot breaking it.

[Edit] Guess I shouldn't have said that about Vista and 7, now Gates will have his feelings hurt. [/Edit]

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

you definitely arent spending enough time drinking beer. id recommend taking at least 20 percent of your time and dedicating it to that

How many ways are there to say that if you do not like what JP is making, don't play there?

I'm beginning to think that people who have a problem with it are feeling guilty, or feeling like they are cheats, or just plain ...

Do none of you get it? We used have THOUSANDS of players. THOUSANDS. Now, at best, maybe a hundred? Master Blaster is not the only one who remembers CLVs with hundreds, I sure do.