So, the way the attacks work now, once the attack script is started the defender cannot attack back, they can only retreat or move if there aren't any IG's involved or transport out if there is a ship within transport range.

JP’s proposition, “Suppose player A is in a Scout and player B is in an ISS. Player A is moving through space with 250 ms delay per hop. As he enters the sector of player B, relative delays become active, so player A can only move in 1 second (let's assume 1/2 sec/tpw, but this can be configured), but player B will take 2 seconds to attack, allowing player A to escape the sector or retreat if he chooses.”

If both players were in the same type ship, the combat delays would be equal.

If the scout was running around taking out your grid, and was too fast to be taken out with your ISS, you would then defend your grid with more figs & mines than the scout ship can carry or disrupt.

Actually the more I think about this the more I like it. Let’s extend this combat delay to entering sectors with enemy planets. So now the massive IC is forced to move tpw when invading.

This will put an end to the script that can do all the below (and probably more than I know.) during a 2 second photon.

1) fire photon
2) transport into IC
3) Lock tow on another IC
4) Enter enemy sector in an IC with an IC on tow before the 2 sec photon runs out.

In “real tpw time” that should be physically impossible, now if we use the combat delays in enemy sectors as well, now we’re talking!

*facepalm* Yes you can attack back. You just have to do it intelligently.



Not even close.



That's called move delay, and it's already an option. It's been an option since what, 2000? Nobody ever uses it.



Why would anyone go in with an IC and tow another IC at the same time? Perhaps if you're going to counter tactics, you might want to counter tactics that people actually do?

They don't use it because it slows the game down too much. Thus the hybrid mode. It won't slow the game down, it'll just slow interactions down. And that's really where there's a problem. Interactions are too fast for humans. But humans would rather not play than have to be subjected to 1 second/warp when moving around the galaxy trading at ports, moving colos etc. You can see the value, right?

When's the last time you played against KB? He just did that to a door sector on Ice-9 game U. One of the "builders" games. Playing a builders game a little rough if you ask me...

Or maybe he just photoned two loaded IC's individually - in either case, he did it with a 2 sec photon and the IC's landed "under" the sector Off figs.

If IC's were forced tpw entering enemy sectors, this would never happen on a 2 second photon.

Now, crank the photons up to 20 seconds which I believe was the old default in HVS MBBS and even at keys players can pull this off, but only script players can do this on a 2 sec. photon.

Here is a macro for a 1 sec photon both entering and landing. Enjoy. I use it on a hotkey in SWATH

Photon (1st Entry)
c p y <SECTOR#> ^M q <SECTOR#> ^M ^M

Photon (Land)
c p y <SECTOR#> ^M q <SECTOR#> ^M l <PLANET#> ^M A <FIGWAVE> ^M ^M

H

It's a little more detailed than that. Move delay slows down moves, that's what Cruncher was complaining about. It's always been possible to force an IC to move slowly.

You do realize tho, that slowing down interactions will result in more scripts being too fast for people, right? I mean all I have to do is warp in on someone trading to slow them down and prevent them from escaping. It'll make it a dozen times easier to grab someone in an IG.

No, I don't get that. If whatever action you're planning to take is slower than the move speed of the player, then how would it favor the scripter? It would only depend on the ships being used. In theory, if the delays are set properly, then there's nothing a scripter can do that couldn't be done at keys by someone skilled enough to do it manually. If you understand the tactic and you have enough time to implement it manually, then there isn't a difference between scripts and humans. That's the goal. Taking away tactics is a whole other issue.

I know KB reasonably well. I'm guessing he did this because he knew you had no way to stop him. He wouldn't have done it against me, lol. If you maintained in-sector defense and someone adj (or dens) torping, you probably could've stopped it too. Add in a doorstop refiller, laugh and laugh.



Photon, xport, move, xport, land. Repeat. That's a far cry from towing in an IC while in an IC. It's also kind of funny, because those ICs are now sitting ducks waiting to be captured. But that's what happens when you have nobody defending the sector.



I bet I could still find a way to get an IC in. Not that it matters, you should've just capped them. ICs have crappy def odds, so you'd have gotten a discount.



I love 20 second non-multiple photons. It means I can grid and grid and almost never get hit. It means I can torp invade entire bases with a single round of torps.

Ex:
Right now, warping in on someone running, say, SST and trying to blow the port out from under them is a royal PITA. You can do it, but only because their scripts suck and don't realize the problem. If warping in slows them down because it's now "an interaction" then you've just made it a dozen times easier.

Ie:
Uniform delays will not overcome response time lags. It will only make them worse.

Ex 2:
I warp in. They go "oh nooooo" and warp out. The delays, however, are imposed on attack and warp out. I see them attacking, I can xport out. I see them warping out, I wait and fire a photon into the new sector. Then I go in and kill them, because they can't move for jack. The delay has just given my script a huge advantage, because I now have enough time to make a decision whether to xport or fire a torp.

Ex 3:
Same scenerio, no photons. Okay, wonderful. I can know surround because in the surround adjs, there's less delay than the main sector. So I can start surrounding with figs and send the command to turn on a slingshot-killa at the same time. The adjs are nice and fast, but unless they can get in the command at just the right (good luck) timing, they're going to be slowed down by the interaction delays. They will escape, but only to hit the adj fig and die. Heck, if I wait for them to hit the right X-way, I could just have my corpie pdrop directly in on top of them because their move delay is going to be so much slower than my corpmate's.

Ex 4:
Pdrop city. You'd be too slow to escape because of the interactivity delay, but I've still got a big freaking planet and an IG. W00t, pdrop ftw! And now callsaveme is that much more important, and scripts have an even bigger advantage.

I'm not going to go item by item and refute what you're saying. I'll just say that you're thinking is too static. Why can you photon me in the next sector if it takes too long to photon me relative to my move speed? Who should photons be instantaneous? Why not take 30 seconds to launch? They're for base invasion, NOT PvP. With proper timings, it is possible to restore Photons to their proper intended use. But that's just one example. In any case, with proper timing, you take the speed advantage out of scripting, and then it's down to the question of whether a tactic needs to be addressed.

I would revise the proposal to say that basically if there is any aspect of realtime involved, delays would need to be active. So even if you don't have an enemy in the sector with you, if you launch a Photon, delays would need to become active, because even going back to v2 when only one player played at a time, Photons had a realtime expiration, so it matters what you can accomplish in that time, regardless of whether or not others are in the area with you. Without other players or time-based gameplay, there are no reasons for delays. If you're playing in a local game, it's silly to use time delays. They're meaningless without interactions with other players, or, in the case of the Photon, when the game takes into account realtime (I can't think of any other situations like that).

Thank you Helix,

Even though I do know how to write macros (now) many of the returning at key players don't. The first time I saw KB shoot loaded IC's under my offensive figs and proceed to moth my cannons I about fell off my chair! My jaw most certainly was on the floor.

This style of play appeals to many here, but not to a great many who would return.

(BTW, you forgot the transport then move. IC's don't carry photons.)

c p y <SECTOR#> ^M q x <SHIP#> ^M ^M <SECTOR#> ^M ^M

I would love that. You could never stop me from invading your base in the first few days of a game. We'd all grid, cash, probe.

See the problem?

It's not that my thinking is too static, it's that the changes required to "rebalance" these things would give us an even bigger advantage. I'm partially tempted to just say nothing and let that happen (which is mostly what KB is doing now, lol) to prove my point, but I hate giving up.



Yes, you can eliminate photons from their current use. But there's a really good reason why we use them the way we do right now. If you eliminate that w/o eliminating the underlying reasons, you just make the problem worse.

W/o addressing the underlying concerns, "proper timing" will only make the problem worse.



Yes, of course. But there are mechanical rules that you would have to create to define these instances. Those rules will be studied, broken down, understood, and turned into tactics.

Remember, I gave 2 other examples w/o photons...

The vast majority of people in the mid-90s used macros and scripts. If they returned today, they would continue using them. Maybe not to the extent we do (at least not at first), but they would definitely use macros once they learned how (a week, give or take).

It's a PITA precisely because of the problem we're looking to address. If it's hard to hit someone at a port, it's because they're macroing their trades instead of haggling (and clearly you're still thinking in turns of unlims here, because nobody would do that in a turns game). If that's the case, then they've probably undocked from the port before you even receive the message that they've docked. Instead of the intended game elements of ships and sectors and ports, now it has become a game of guessing the other player's latency and trying to sync up with the rhythm of their script. Then it's no longer Trade Wars.




Tick 0: You power up. They warp out.
Tick 1: You scan to see where they went. They move again.
Tick 2: You waste a photon.




In WoW, once you're "in combat", you remain in combat for several seconds after disengaging. The same could apply to TW's delays.




You've actually brought up an interesting point here. Should you be placed "in combat" whenever someone interacts with your assets in a distant sector? I think the answer is yes. Your assets are an extension of "you" in this game. Having a massive fighter grid would keep you constantly in combat, and that would be good for the overall balance.

Tick 0: They enter the sector with your figs. You are placed in combat and your GCD is tripped.
Tick 1: You attempt to twarp. They destroy your figs. Does twarp succeed or fail? Probably depends on the length of the imposed delays.

1. This example was mostly an unlim example, people do use PPT and SSM in turns games all the time.

2. It's a PITA because it should be, you want to make it easier?



So warping in one someone and attacking them, using fighters, thru sectors, is not TW? LOL.



Except no. You don't need to scan, and if they're moving manually even a scan would happen in time. To move fast enough to avoid the photon you'd have to be using a script.

But seriously, I'm not going to argue these tactics. I *KNOW* they work, and I know what will happen with these changes. Eventually, it'll become obvious. The only question is whether or not they become obvious after JP is done with his revisions.



Great, even better.



Awesome, so I can keep someone slowed down by finding one of their little planets and sitting in sector w/ it. Or better yet, by torping under a fig and sitting... muhaha, good luck finding me.



Nobody is twarping here. It's plock + pwarp. I'll already have a lock on the sector before you take out the fig.