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I got into a heated discussion
https://mail.black-squirrel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33982		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Helix [ Sun May 19, 2013 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  I got into a heated discussion
Nothing new right.

But it was about the morality and ethics in TradeWars.

I, personally, feel that anything the game mechanics allow is ethical in the game with the exception of rules the sysop might make barring certain tactics.

Bug use (mega rob, alien planet farming, fig desyncs in v1) are all a part of the game as we know it unless the op says dont do that.

Blockades, Blowing class9/0 ports, planet buyouts, megacorping, ship buyouts, the game mechanics allow it unless the op says no blockades and no blowing ports, no buyouts, no mega-corping.

Truces are simple and don't need a lot of rules, per say, mostly its all defining what a truce is as far as the game goes. Its easy, don't do anything that would interfere with another person or corp's play during the truce period.

Its not supposed to be a game of "How to we play in the grey area" or "How do we figure to go against the posted rules without getting caught."

Follow the op's rules or do not. Its black and white. Its not about finding loopholes, its about using the allowed game mechanics and using all of the available tools to kick the other teams' butts.


T0yman wrote:
Well first using the word "ethics" and "Trade Wars" in the same sentence is some what crazy. We ... Yes "WE" have all been guilty at some point in bending the rules to fit the need at the moment. If you show me a person that is not guilty I will show someone that is just not trying to win. Sorry but this game like anything competitive drives people to bend rules and look for any loophole imaginable. It would be nice if there was a way to implement rules and let the game enforce them, but that is just not the case at this point and time, and probably never will be in the current state without a complete rewrite.


Kavanagh wrote:
I agree with you. It is supposed to be a WAR.

Despite all I have posted over the years about my opposition to certain tactics, mainly reactive attack scripts, I have always been of the opinion that ANYTHING that the in-built game rules allow should be permitted. Sysop/Gameop rules can be easily circumvented undetectably by a good script writer. That puts other players at a disadvantage.

No Megacorping/asset transfer? Several undetectable ways around that.

Dis-enable CIM? Not sure if thats a TWGS option, was possible HVS, took me 15 minutes to figure a way to ZTM without CIM, not much longer to script it.

No information sharing. That is absurd. ICQ, email? Smoke signals?

Etc., etc.

That said, I dislike players using reactive attack scripts in all but tournies, they really do diminish the player base by keeping newbies and retreads from ever returning.


T0yman wrote:
Well first using the word "ethics" and "Trade Wars" in the same sentence is some what crazy.
.

I don't see a gray area here. You either play by the rules or you do not. This isn't rocket science but there is definitely a learning curve.

New people and returning people in this game should be taught how to play by the rules. They certainly don't need to be taught its okay to break the rules if you don't get caught and you win. Winning doesn't require breaking an ethical or moral code.

The game mechanics are there to be utilized to their fullest extent. Operator rules are not. What I am trying to say is that one can be good trader, win games, play TradeWars and not break the rules.
Author:  Helix [ Sun May 19, 2013 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I got into a heated discussion
T0yman wrote:
T0yman wrote:
Well first using the word "ethics" and "Trade Wars" in the same sentence is some what crazy.

Helix wrote:
I don't see a gray area here. You either play by the rules or you do not.

What I am saying it is possible, but when the back is against the wall a player will bend or break a rule to get the upper hand. Since there are almost no mechanics of the game that track it then it is based on ethics and honor, and both of those are seriously lacking in this game.

Helix wrote:
Winning doesn't require breaking an ethical or moral code.

Yet we are all guilty of it at one time or another.

Helix wrote:
What I am trying to say is that one can be good trader, win games, play TradeWars and not break the rules.

I would agree, but once you feel the other player may have taken liberty with a rule it doesn't take long for everyone else to join in.
I could name specifics but let's just leave it that everyone playing this game has done it, no need to drag up the past. ;)
Author:  Helix [ Sun May 19, 2013 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I got into a heated discussion
mob wrote:
Firstly, T0y is correct. We have all done it, even if it was against the rules truce or not.

Whew....now that I got that off my back...

Ethics is a grey area, because everyone's personal ethics are different. Some people think its ok as long as they don't get caught. Does it make it right, no. Are people still going to do things others might seem unethical, yes.

The one thing about this game is even though a player or corp might abuse a "bug" or tactic, it doesn't mean they will win the game. I have seen a "unmentioned corp" break truce rules by sitting on a planet before it even reaches cit, wait for us to upgrade it, then claimed it later....and since it didn't show in logs....it was fair game.

Where does this sit with you? BTW....they still got their butts handed to them, no matter if they were just there to start trouble. The one thing that makes an elite player is how you deal with these situations.

No, ethics is not a gray area. Not in our society. We are raised with them. We have a sense of right and wrong. We know when we are doing something sleazy. And its easy to see by how others react to us and the extent we will go to justify our behavior. People want ethical choices to be seen as gray because they are human and make mistakes. If an ethical decision is gray they feel like they can be absolved in some small way for making it.

Finally, while there maybe some gray areas regarding ethics in real life, in a game there are no gray areas ethically speaking, You either abide by the rules or you do not, and any examples you pose from the game are black and white,
Author:  Cruncher [ Sun May 19, 2013 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I got into a heated discussion
Helix wrote:


Finally, while there maybe some gray areas regarding ethics in real life, in a game there are no gray areas ethically speaking, You either abide by the rules or you do not, and any examples you pose from the game are black and white,


And the problem lies in the proof. Therefore the game is NOT simply black & white but ethically speaking there are a lot of gray areas. Some players feel fully justified using whatever mechanics the game allows, even those the sysop has not thought of to make a rule for. To them, they are playing ethically, no rule, no rules broken... but their actions cannot be proven or dis-proven. Had the sysop known of that particular "tactic", if given a choice they could of had a rule against it.

Hence why this boarders on the bug usage rule, and why I asked for details about a bug that I don't know about.

A person's internal compass for right and wrong vary greatly, depending upon their upbringing, status in life, and location on this big blue marble.

The world stopped being black & white after we stopped being teenagers.
Author:  Mongoose [ Sun May 19, 2013 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I got into a heated discussion
Anything not specifically forbidden by the sysop should be considered fair play. You might call it "unethical" to bend or break the rules established by the sysop, but whether "cheating" is "ethical" is really beside the point. It's all just philosophical shorthand for "won't be invited back to play another game."
Author:  Kewlbreeze [ Sun May 19, 2013 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I got into a heated discussion
AS SG always said, the game mechanics will work them self's out.

JP messed that option up an I know that was one of the things they went back and for about due to old bug reappearing but as points have been made play the version you prefer and if your a sysop there are ways to set up games how you see fit, but once it's set hold your tough...learn and if you don't like the way it went down do it different next time.

btw vote for pedro!
Author:  Helix [ Mon May 20, 2013 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I got into a heated discussion
//Mod break//

Trolling again, is not allowed. Second warning Helix.

Edit: Look , stop censoring my posts, second warning anonymous mod, it took an hour to write this thing. If the post was actually trolling it would still be here, removing it completely means its just my word against yours.

Personally I think you screwed up. I think you learned too many bad habits over on hyper. Censorship just draws more attention to a subject. One sentence using Big D as an example of using game mechanics successfully and the social effects of being ethically challenged is hardly trolling. He did the deed, he got caught, he pays the consequences.

Now we get to add you as an example of someone who is ethically challenged too. Well done.

//Mod break//

You've done it again. Here's the kicker- I was using the Helix school of Modding. At least I had the decency to call attention to the fact that the offending posts were edited for content. One thing that seems to have slipped your simple mind- there is no freedom of speech on a private board. If you don't follow the rules, you don't get to keep your posts.
Odd how you didn't bring up using TEDIT on your own server as an example of how ethically challenged you are... More irony.
Author:  Kewlbreeze [ Wed May 22, 2013 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I got into a heated discussion
what's a "//mod break//"
Author:  Grey Gamer [ Wed May 22, 2013 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I got into a heated discussion
Kewlbreeze wrote:
what's a "//mod break//"


It looks like a moderator replaced the post with that line.
Author:  Oso [ Wed May 22, 2013 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I got into a heated discussion
The //Mod break// is used on some forums as a way of allowing a thread to continue but letting the users know that someone hasn't been following the rules. It is pretty straightforward, and lets people know when a mod has edited an offending post. A previous mod was not that transparent in that regard.
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