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Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
https://mail.black-squirrel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31673		 Page 1 of 12
Author:  Micro [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
Author:  Cruncher [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
When you say non-scripting, do you mean 100% manually? No helpers of any sort?
Author:  Micro [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
It was suggested by a trader, and I really just wanted to see if anyone would play.

Obviousy I can't sit at the console 24/7 to make sure no-one is scripting, but I could make it a closed game and impose delays provided by the new version of TWGS.
Author:  Farley [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
You would have Crunch... maybe even ccbee.
Author:  Cruncher [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
Farley wrote:
You would have Crunch... maybe even ccbee.



No, I use scritps to trade, haul and colonize. Hehe...

I just don't use the AFK attack/defend type scripts. I think those are the types he's trying to discourage.
Author:  Kavanagh [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
Cruncher wrote:
Farley wrote:
You would have Crunch... maybe even ccbee.



No, I use scritps to trade, haul and colonize. Hehe...

I just don't use the AFK attack/defend type scripts. I think those are the types he's trying to discourage.


I share Cruncher's distaste for using AFK scripts, but I have no problem with others doing so. I both wrote and helped write afk attack and robot scripts for corpies 15 years ago; I wasnt the first by any means, as best I can recall, '93 was when the tactic became publicly known by a very few.

I did use what I wrote a few times, boring, stopped.

All that said, I am not sure how a gameop/sysop/game designer even, can prevent script usage, without slowing the game response time down to unplayable levels.

There are many more talented programmers than I in the TW community. Sing comes to mind first, Gypsy, Vid Kid, EP...Eleq, Tweety, (both of whom look in from time to time), Traitor, CBS228... the list goes on and on - I dont want to offend any left out, there are too many to mention.

Point is, aint no way in hell that I can think of that I could be detected using a script, if I spent the time rewriting it to dissemble. I really wish it could be done; I agree with those who say that the twixie pixies and unlim turns have decimated the player base.

If I can do it, the above and others could do it with one hand tied behind their back and typing with their big toe.


Really simple mechanisms come to mind. Randomised millisecond delays between character transmissions, except favorite ones like, send "the" fast sometimes. Randomised typos, with ^H backspaces to correct.

I have of course, saved the best grin. Find an old book about Morse code "Hand" and it will be kinda obvious that it is next to impossible to detect scripting. All it will do, is hand the baby seals onto script writer's plates.
Author:  Micro [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
I'm absolutely not against scripting as a whole, but somehow we need to make the game "Fun" again.

I agree with you that it's nearly imposiable to regulate scripting, and I think that imposing move delays would annoy non-scripting players more than it would scripters.

Perhaps one could monitor how fast a player is responding to determine if they are scripting, but then a scripter could just add random response delays to appears more human.
Author:  Singularity [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
MicroBlaster wrote:
I'm absolutely not against scripting as a whole, but somehow we need to make the game "Fun" again.


You are right about this. But I disagree that scripts are what make the game "not fun."

We've been down the road of "no script" settings in a lot of previous discussions. Long story made short, delays don't matter, and any time checks you add can be duplicated by scripters.

It would be interesting to get other people's opinions on exactly what makes the game so "not fun." I've long suspected it's the time commitment, personally.
Author:  Kavanagh [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
Singularity wrote:
MicroBlaster wrote:
I'm absolutely not against scripting as a whole, but somehow we need to make the game "Fun" again.


You are right about this. But I disagree that scripts are what make the game "not fun."

We've been down the road of "no script" settings in a lot of previous discussions. Long story made short, delays don't matter, and any time checks you add can be duplicated by scripters.

It would be interesting to get other people's opinions on exactly what makes the game so "not fun." I've long suspected it's the time commitment, personally.


The only thing that I dislike is that the game is no longer as easy to start playing as it used be, or as easy to return to from an absence of many years, because of the twixie pixies. No new players will even bother their arse trying more than a few games if they get blown away an hour or so after the bang by the script kiddies high on twix, sorry.

Same goes for the retreads, Sing.

You are missing a thought, no offense - the twixies feel empowered by the scripts and use them to frag players. You and writers dont, at least half the fun is writing them, laff.

We cant afford to keep losing new players. It is not as simple as a time commitment. If it were, eliminate bots and see how many turns the corpies play - they are, essentially, dupes if botted.

Kav
Author:  Cruncher [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
Singularity wrote:
It would be interesting to get other people's opinions on exactly what makes the game so "not fun." I've long suspected it's the time commitment, personally.


Yeah, as we (player base) have aged time commitment is an issue, that's why I love the turn bank.

But to keep time commitment manageable, keep the turns low and keep the time limit on. That will keep daily time commitment low and result in a long lasting strategy game.

But I think the flip-side to time commitment is how long it takes to finish a game, and this leads to high turn, or unlimited turn games that can be played start to finish in one weekend resulting in a fast "first person shooter" game.

So a player's definition of "fun" depends upon which style they prefer.

Luckily for us, servers can and do host both types of games.

New or returning sysops like Micro are trying to find ways to create games that will appeal to pleyers who prefer the long lasting strategy games, and maybe put up a few annoyances that will discourage the "first person shooter" types. Or as Kav calls them the "twixe pixies" :lol:

As more and more players return to the game I think we'll have to be grown-up and mature about keeping to the games that best suit our style and stop going and wacking newbies in slow games just because you can.
Author:  Micro [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
I agree with low turns, but how does a time limit help non scripters?
Author:  Cruncher [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
MicroBlaster wrote:
I agree with low turns, but how does a time limit help non scripters?


The high script players have AFK attack/defend scripts, and keep them running 24/7, never logging off.

If you haven't already, download TWX and Mombot, and those are just the free public scritps. Looking at those will mostle likely raise the little hairs on the back of your neck! The more talented script writters and their corps have much more sophisticated scripts than those.
Author:  Singularity [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
Quote:
No new players will even bother their arse trying more than a few games if they get blown away an hour or so after the bang by the script kiddies high on twix, sorry.


Yeh, but I don't actually see a lot of that happening.
What I do see is a lot of people looking for team mates
to play with, and not finding them. They go in solo,
find they can't compete, and eventually stop playing
when life demands increase.

I could put together a standard TWXproxy package that
would contain all of the basic scripts a person needs
to survive today. From there, people just need to pick
the right games (week old unlims aren't good choices).

Quote:
You are missing a thought, no offense - the twixies feel empowered by the scripts and use them to frag players. You and writers dont, at least half the fun is writing them, laff.


All of the fun is writing them, LOL. Or I should say
finding a weakness in someone else's approach and
exploiting it with another script, or finding a new
way to approach an old problem.

And yes some people do run scripts to just frag
players, but I have all of those scripts too and they
aren't that great. Mow attack scripts can be beaten by
other mowers. Btorp scripts can be beaten by traps,
better patterns, mowers, and turn management. Pwarp
torpers can be beaten by xporting out. A tiny amount
of knowledge can beat all of those fancy attack scripts
and turn them on their head. Which, IMO, is 70% of
the fun.

The problem there isn't scripts, but a lack of knowledge.
If more people knew how to take advantage of AFK
killers, people wouldn't run them.

Quote:
We cant afford to keep losing new players. It is not as simple as a time commitment. If it were, eliminate bots and see how many turns the corpies play - they are, essentially, dupes if botted.


I think that's over simplifying the problem. I think
the problem is that people can lose their entire base
after hours of development while they're at work.

Combined with the "winner is the guy with all the
stuff, the losers are the ones that are dead" as the
only win criteria, and you end up with a game where
people actively seek to eliminate enemy corps while
they're sleeping or at work. This makes it very tough
for people without perfect keytime to compete. I have
decent keytime, so it's not a problem for me, but I
run into that issue a lot with my corpies and it has
been the biggest reason why I lose team mates.

Cruncher wrote:
But to keep time commitment manageable, keep the turns low and keep the time limit on. That will keep daily time commitment low and result in a long lasting strategy game.


Time limit is pretty easy to exploit tho. I'm thinking
more of a server-side script that disables the game
during non-game hours. Like the game is only open from
7pm to midnite, extern set to 11pm.

I think if you coupled that with a turn bank, decent
planets, not too many turns, and a win criteria other
than "take everything the enemy owns" then you'd end
up with a completely different game. I'm not yet sure
what win criteria I'd use, however, since a resource
win would stalemate and get old after the first month.
Or maybe the game would just count resources and auto
rebang after 30 days to keep it fresh.

Cruncher wrote:
The high script players have AFK attack/defend scripts, and keep them running 24/7, never logging off.


The high script players also monitor the CLV changes
and game logins, or have players that can login and
monitor fighits. Time limits aren't really an issue.
Scripts actually make it a lot easier to coordinate
this sort of thing, it'd be impossible without scripts.
Author:  John Pritchett [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
I don't agree that delays don't matter. If you go to extremes and have very long delays for movement and such, then sure, that turns some people off. But there's a lot of room between "fast enough for humans" and "bot-speed". If you can get the game running at a pace that's comfortable for a human (doesn't feel like watching grass grow), but isn't any faster than that even if it's a bot, then you've leveled the playing field in at least one way. Is it enough to fix all of the problems? No. But it's one piece of the puzzle. I've always said that it's not the scripts that break the game, it's the speed and response time of the scripts. Anything a script can do a human can do, just not as fast and efficiently. So slowing things down is an important factor. I don't know why everyone jumps to the extreme of slowing it down to the point of being too sluggish to play.

If it's true that a script can't do anything that a human player can't do, then this becomes an issue of tactics more than of scripting. Scripting identifies many tactics that are not good for the game, like monitoring the rankings and CIM data to gather info that the game never intended to provide. But it's not that it's a script doing it that's the problem, it's that it can be done in the first place. So scripts have an advantage in speed and response time, and that can be addressed. But beyond that, the tactics that scripts use need to be addressed, independently of whether they're being done by script or human player.

Also, I don't agree with the complaint about losing your base while you're offline. This is a problem of expectations that's been created by the multiplayer game. When the game was first written and, according to most of TW's overall players, more fun, the only time you could attack a base was when the enemy was offline. The expectation that you can be online and do anything about being attacked is the problem here, not the fact that your base can be attacked while you're offline. Take a game like Risk. Does anyone complain because your position can be wiped out while it's not your turn? No. That's the game. TW was more fun for more people when it was "one at a time". Multiplayer added a lot to this game, but it created all of these problems we're facing as well. The question is, can these problems be fixed without returning to a "one at a time" approach? As you know, I've been contemplating adding a "one at a time" (or "one corp at a time") option to see if any players prefer it. Personally, I think many would. It's crazy, but there's so much about what made TW great in the old days that's been eroded over time by multiplayer interactions.

I agree that the game needs other victory conditions. And of course the truce settings that SG always championed. We've talked about this so much and there are no easy solutions. But I am willing to try some things. When I have more time to devote to TW again, I'd like to take a crack at improving the situation. For now, I've already started work on another game and that's going to keep me busy for awhile.
Author:  Micro [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone interested in a non-scripting game?
Singularity wrote:
All of the fun is writing them, LOL. Or I should say
finding a weakness in someone else's approach and
exploiting it with another script, or finding a new
way to approach an old problem.

I also find this aspect of the game "Fun". I'm not that much into running scripts written by other people, or watching a "bot" play for me. I think it might be interesting to run a automation game though. No human interaction would be allowed after the game begins.

Singularity wrote:
Time limit is pretty easy to exploit tho. I'm thinking
more of a server-side script that disables the game
during non-game hours. Like the game is only open from
7pm to midnite, extern set to 11pm.

I really like this idea, and it wouldn't be hard to script either. What type of edit/TWA should I use?
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