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Ethics and Scripts
https://mail.black-squirrel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17864		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Velocity [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:00 am ]
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Look! a new topic.

Anyways, there has been dicussion of ethics and scripts.

One side says any spoofing of scripts is bad, the other side that spoofing of scripts is ok.

I personally am on the side of spoofing scripts is ok. I didnt write the scripts, however if scripts get spoofed, and corrected they become harder to spoof.

It all devolves to whose got the better advantage.
Author:  RexxCrow [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:07 am ]
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Hahaa, very funny! [:)]
Author:  Thrawn [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:43 am ]
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Forgive my silly question, but being new to the script and helper thing. I need to ask what exactly you mean by "spoofing of scripts". Are you meaning finding a way to trick the script? This is the first time I've heard of spoofing a script. Bad enough I have to learn about scripts, helpers now we have spoofing scripts. Too much to learn, so little time.
Author:  Oso [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:47 am ]
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I see it as it requires people who mooch scripts (like myself) to be careful when using them. If I am AFK and end up photoning my corpie (apologies to SG) because he cleaned on a personal limp and my script nailed him, then I deserve the Butt chewing that is to come. If I trust the scripting power of others out there who generously feed the leachers at grimy (I am one of those leachers), then it's my own damned fault if a script blows up on me and sends me zooming across the universe. Do I have a right to whine if I forgot to turn off SWATH's autohaggle and tried to worldSSM? Should I blame it on the script writer, saying that they should have done something to make it "idiot proof"?. If you get something for free, don't complain if it doesn't work right or if it gets you killed. When scripts are released at grimy in the .TS form, I can bet that there is at least one person who downloads the scripts and starts to pick it apart. You have script, counter-script in Tradewars. So the next logical evolution is something to defeat the script itself, not just counter it.
Author:  Promethius [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:09 am ]
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Thrawn, if I were to type something on fedcom like: "Deployed Fighters Report Sector 1234: Promethius's RedRum entered sector." there is a possibility that your script might launch to attack. Most scripts will detect that as a spoof by using 1 of 2 (and sometimes both) methods to catch it - some won't. Pdrop scripts that don't catch it can be run out of ore if the player running the drop is AFK (not good to do with any script). Read Traitor's "stupid ansi tricks" (basically his title) on his website for more info on it.

As far as trying to spoof scripts - just a little subversion in progress. I will do it in a second if I find a problem with the script someone is running and I expect someone to try and spoof my scripts. The person running public scripts is at the mercy of the scripter that released it. Most of the time problems occur because the scripter didn't know how to catch spoofs and not due to intentionally leaving problems. Making a script idiot proof takes a lot of time and even more game knowledge - most of my scripts are NOT idiot proof. People are pretty resourceful when it comes to finding things to mess with scripts.

Now is it ethical to spoof a script - hell, I don't know, but it can be fun.
Author:  RexxCrow [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:14 am ]
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Sorry, I just had to do it, :)~

Spoofing
Refers to when an opposing player attempts to activate triggers within the scripts of their opponents, whom they suspect are using scripts. Spoofing consists of sending quoted text via in-game communication links. This can cause the opponents script to misfire, often resulting in erroneous actions to the opponent that is being spoofed.


This could also involve the use of player, ship, beacon, and planet names. Although, they all have one thing in common no matter which spoof tactic you use, which is to say they are all the biggest back over the head, punch in the face, backhanded, backstabbing, cheap shot, low blow, kick in the Butt type of tactic to use! Holy ****, Hallelujah, where's the Tylenol?!?!
Author:  Oso [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:15 am ]
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Prom, I use many of your scripts and I am very grateful for your hard work.
I have seen how difficult it is to create scripts, and especially to debug them in game.
I wish I knew how to do it, but I haven't made that effort yet.
Until I do, I am at the mercy of good people who share with us their efforts.
Spoofing is ethical. Most spoofs will only work once or twice, as someone running the script will eventualy wonder why their pdrop script is sending them all over the universe. After that, they will figure out a way to block it. Or whine. Don't forget whining.
Author:  Kaus [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:21 am ]
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Is it ethical for a more skilled player to attack a known newbie and SD them if there in the game learning and stated so on fedcom? Is it ethical for players to share knowledge of a position for whatever reason. When i played wow many times I killed players less skilled (level,etc) or unaware how to counter a specific string of spells/commands. When I play Ink Link (drawing game)people share info on instant messanger to do what we all try to do. WIN and to most but not all people in anyway they can.
Author:  Promethius [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:54 am ]
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A lot of the way people react to a newbie depends on how that person reacts when they get hit. I have helped a lot of people because they responded in a decent manner and asked questions. I have also made life miserable for some in the game when they responded with a string of 4 letter words - no "love" was not one of those words. A new player that enters a competitive game where players are trying to control the grid will ensure that he/she is SD'd as quickly as possible. If the game is an unlim and someone is trying to close it out, the results will be the same.

Another thing to remember is that fedcom messages can easily be missed by someone when their screen is scrolling fast - colonizing, SDT, or world whatever running. The other player can simply be AFK when the message comes across.
Author:  Thrawn [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:58 am ]
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quote:Originally posted by Promethius

Thrawn, if I were to type something on fedcom like: "Deployed Fighters Report Sector 1234: Promethius's RedRum entered sector." there is a possibility that your script might launch to attack. Most scripts will detect that as a spoof by using 1 of 2 (and sometimes both) methods to catch it - some won't. Pdrop scripts that don't catch it can be run out of ore if the player running the drop is AFK (not good to do with any script). Read Traitor's "stupid ansi tricks" (basically his title) on his website for more info on it.

As far as trying to spoof scripts - just a little subversion in progress. I will do it in a second if I find a problem with the script someone is running and I expect someone to try and spoof my scripts. The person running public scripts is at the mercy of the scripter that released it. Most of the time problems occur because the scripter didn't know how to catch spoofs and not due to intentionally leaving problems. Making a script idiot proof takes a lot of time and even more game knowledge - most of my scripts are NOT idiot proof. People are pretty resourceful when it comes to finding things to mess with scripts.

Now is it ethical to spoof a script - hell, I don't know, but it can be fun.


Thank you for giving me a clearer understanding.
Author:  GodZilla [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:11 am ]
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Sir Walter Scott:
Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive!
Author:  Velocity [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:11 am ]
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Thats one of the problems with scripts. You need them to compete, but if you leave attack scripts running, and you walked away from the keyboard or 8 hrs, you deserve what you get. Not to be a jerk, but attack scripts afk are just plain not smart. Will your script defend your base, maybe. Can it win you the game? No. Being at keys wins you the game.

Scripts are smart. People are smarter.
Author:  Runaway Proton [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:29 pm ]
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It boggles my mind why people will whine when they're using other peoples scripts, (like me) but complain when the scirpt is defeated by the writer or another player that knows the script better then you. This is a game! It's usually best player win type situation. If a player that doesn't have any scripts at all were to win the game (unlikely nowdays) it would be fair, but if a player with better scripts wins, the player with none or lesser scripts accuses the other of cheating. Quit complaining and learn to write the code yourself, or how to addapt next time.
A player writes a script, and has a backdoor into it to defeat it if it were to be used against him? I call this smart! Thinking ahead. Want to defeat it, learn to modify the code, or write your own.
I'm very gratefull to those who write scripts and share it with people like me. I know there are a lot of non-public scripts out there and that's the decision of the writer to release or not. But if it were not for the public scripts, an amature player like myself would have 0 chance of remaining in a game past day 1. Now my interest in the game is renewed, and I'm trying to improve my skills to be more competitive.
My thanks to those who help the newbies, (and the amatures).
Author:  Runaway Proton [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:33 pm ]
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PS... I do not agree with scripts that you can use to totally automate the game. Scripts that you can set to run, walk away, and win the game. I've heard they exist. Although I do agree it's good scripting skills, it really takes away from the game. If you want to plan them for turnaments, that's up to those that officiate or play it to decide to allow it or not. That might be the place for them. But I hope they don't become common in most games.
Author:  Promethius [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:17 pm ]
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quote:Originally posted by Runaway Proton

PS... I do not agree with scripts that you can use to totally automate the game. Scripts that you can set to run, walk away, and win the game. I've heard they exist. Although I do agree it's good scripting skills, it really takes away from the game. If you want to plan them for turnaments, that's up to those that officiate or play it to decide to allow it or not. That might be the place for them. But I hope they don't become common in most games.



Truly automated scripts are few and far between, however you are correct that some exist - at least for the first part of an unlimited move game.

RP, you are also correct in the need to adapt to situations and that is where the scripter has an advantage - provided that he/she has the game knowledge necessary. We have varying levels of scripting ability just as we have varying levels of TradeWars knowledge. What I feel makes someone a good scripter is not their knowledge of the scripting language, but of the game. If you know what you need to do in regard to the game, figuring out how to script it really isn't that hard to do.
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