I would like to put into perspective some of the "huge" controversy we've had recently. The most recent thing that people whined and complained about was spoofing your opponent's scripts. Now, I'm not sure why this suddenly became such a huge issue. I started playing Trade Wars in late 2000. Even then, people would try to spoof scripts. I remember in just regular games people would frequently try hailing people things like "Report Sector: 123^mby" to try to get them to self destruct. The most it ever seemed to get then was laughs from people and mild irritation from someone who ended up getting cby'd by it. Now, all of a sudden, it's a horrible aweful low down tactic. I really don't understand the change.

Now, let's compare this "horrible" script spoofing to some other things I've seen done in the past. How about USO 02 where the leading corp in the game was deleted for telling someone else offline that they were being invaded? Now THAT was controversy. It was something that was a grey area to begin with and ended up SERIOUSLY changing the dynamics of the game. How about BOTE01 where the team representing the hosting system just happened to find a lvl 5 H with full ore, no shields, and very few figs within the first couple of weeks. Once again, something that SERIOUSLY changed the dynamics of the game. There are so many more examples of things like this, and through it all, people kept playing. Why is it now that people moan and complain and quit over something fairly minor like spoofing a script? Why can't they just suck it up, fix their script, and keep on playing? It's not like a simple spoofing of a script tends to seriously change the dynamics of the game, it's just a minor setback.

Kemp, new players into the community learn to use public scripts that are needed to compete. My whole point is they arent going to stick around when people are hail spamming and **** like that. I am not saying it hasnt happened in the past and wont happen again, or that it is the biggest deal in the world. But for christs sakes lets just play the game and have fun and win using solid legitimate tactics. It would be different if there were 100k people in community and the talent was so widespread that the majority knew how to combat underhanded tactics like this. But it is a few elite that know how to perpetuate these tactics and it simply is not good for the game. So in that sense it is a big deal because people are not going to play if they have to account for every little hole in the main stream public scripts NEEDED to compete, and worry about some computer nerd figuring out a new underhanded tactic to screw them.

I think what may actually be in question here Harley, is not so much the actual use of spoofing, but more so the ethics behind it. Anyone moron can sit there hailing spoofs to an unsuspecting trader, hoping they cby or their Saveme takes them to the wrong location. It doesn’t take an engineer to figure out that many of the public scripts today rely heavily on SS chatter and that it's possible to breach them.
Our last "Big" Controversy was the photoning of Dock. Which was found and employed during a big game. The Bug was reported here on EIS and was hush hush. Some, probably a hand full of players knew of it and had the opportunity to use before the fix came down. But most didn’t know it existed, let alone employ it.
Fast Forward to today, Many elites are gone and the game is seeing small improvements in numbers as newer players join, What’s the first thing they see the "Pro's" (I use that term loosely) doing? Spoofing each other!
Yes!, the same people we hold in high regard for their talent and knowledge of the game, The Same people that spread fear into the hearts of newbs, The Same people that can single handedly take down an entire corporation, The Same people who’s names are mentioned in the same breath as “Beware”.
These same people will have you believe that it’s a “Tactic”, not an underhanded trick. Don’t listen, Don’t believe and most of all Don’t follow.
If these types of “Practices” continue, and continue to be perpetrated by those that are held in high regard, then it will become a problem down the road. Most likely to a point were most of us playing now will not want to continue, and we will only have our community chosen leaders to thank for the demise.

Zoso

yes, back in the day, the nazi's rounded up a buncha jews and slaughtered them. its no big deal, genocide happens all the time. look at israel, palestine, somolia, heck, the whole middle east. why you never hear people complain until it's their race or religion that is being persecuted, then they speak up. blah.

stock N zoso, hit the nail on the head. just because its happened before doesn't mean its the right thing to do.
fine, spoof people's scripts. but my problem is when you make your script public and spoof it. thats not nice. if maybe it was someone you hated... ok, its atleast an excuse. but you dont do that to your buddies. its why he's been avoiding me, so when i chew him out, i wont be that mad, heh.
i will stick with my point still, its not cheating, its just lame.

Slim

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

yes, back in the day, the nazi's rounded up a buncha jews and slaughtered them. its no big deal, genocide happens all the time. look at israel, palestine, somolia, heck, the whole middle east. why you never hear people complain until it's their race or religion that is being persecuted, then they speak up. blah.
Slim,
quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady
have you been in war? are you or have you ever been in the military? if you would like to truely compare WAR and a frickin text based game, be my guest, but it makes you sound like a fool.
Heh. [:D]

I don't agree that new players have to use Public Scripts to learn how to play or to become competitive. On the contrary, it retards their learning process.
If a bot script will only accept instructions over corp ss, it is impossible to "bust/spoof" it, unless ss is compromised. Even then, simple to prohibit it from accepting cby. Bustable scripts are sloppy code. Anyone using 3rd party scripts deserves whatever happens to them.

Heh. The tournie cycle continues. This last USO was pretty tame compared to some of them. Spoofing has been around for as long as I've been playing. What happened this time bothers me less than a lot of poeple, simply because I'm a scripter myself, and I don't have to rely on other people's offerings. I mean, almost all of my scripts are written with some kind of spoof-proofing built in. I don't even consider NOT adding some kind of protection.

Still, I can understand non-scripter's real fear that you need to script to be competitive, and if you can't trust your scripts...

This was posted on my site 3 years ago.
quote:Originally posted by Traitor on http://www.tw-cabal.com
I am pleased to see that people are still *****ing about the USO. Tournaments are EVIL. I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it over and over. They suck all the fun right out of the game. I know they have done many good things for the TW community, but at what cost? The second you put extra rules on a game, you will find people of lower moral standing perfectly willing to bend the spirit of the new rules to their advantage, while those of higher moral character are left with a choice of either doing the same thing, (and becoming no better than the abusers) or losing. Has it gone from who has the most skill to who has the best programmer on their team? Do we need to make Tournament rules more complex than a Micro$oft EULA to prevent abuse? Don't bother answering, I already know. You're not going to change my opinion on Tournaments anyway. I'm happy to stand by the sidelines and cheer every time a Tournament self destructs because of rule bending. And I'll shed a tear every time someone quits TW over a Tournament. Maybe I should change my handle to 'Heckler'? All I want to say is 'I TOLD YOU SO!'

Three years and a few tournaments later, I've softened my opinions a bit since then, since I recognize the training/learning aspects of tournies. For while they tend to bring out the worst in us, the also bring out the best in us too.

When you sign up for a TW tournie, you have to know that it's very likely that someone is gonna bend/break the rules, or cheat, or pull some stuff that...while legal...isn't very sportsman like. I gave up trying to change the mentality a while ago. It's part of TW tournaments. You can choose to boycott tournies and live with being called craven by your TW peers, you can get frustrated and quit TW all together, You can continue to play in tournies and just not expect to win, or you can start down the slippery slope and play like the pro's. [:D]

Traitor, I can't agree with you at all when you say you can just start down the slippery slope and play like the pros. What kind of game do you want to play cause my guess is an overall majority of people would not want that.

I have not said anything about this whole thing until now, but I guess I can't stay quiet anymore. I think Slim said it right, just because it's been done before does not mean it's right. It's slack and nothing short of it. It's win at all costs, and that's what torneys are to some people. I think it was low, and not something I'd do, but as long as two people play a game, one just might have the morals to do whatever it takes to win.

I guess i'm a nobody, but in the end I just lose respect for anyone who does stuff like this and move on and keep playing and expect to win every time without trying underhanded things.

as a spectator with a hangover and time to kill, here's my take

- hail spamming and a forced CBY weren't particularly nice things to do
- While perhaps decidedly un-mentholated, the aforementioned tactics don't win games
- none of this will matter to anyone in a week's time, so enjoy the feeling of righteous indignation while it lasts

quote:Originally posted by LetsDrinkCoke

Traitor, I can't agree with you at all when you say you can just start down the slippery slope and play like the pros. What kind of game do you want to play cause my guess is an overall majority of people would not want that.
Coke,
I said it was a choice, not a recommendation. My personal choice should be obvious. I've been called a coward (or worse) by some of the very best players. Heck, I've crushed some of the very best when they were still noobs. Then I pointed them at my site and gave them some tips and answered their ICQ questons. And a year or so later, they came back and crushed me and called me a noob. Believe me, that used to drive me crazy. [:P]

I can't stress this enough: Pick your games carefully, choose your opponents and your corpies even more carefully. If you don't like how things are going, vote with your feet. I'll probably never be considered a pro, but at least now I have fun in every game I choose to play.

[edit] Note: I don't think all pro's are lying, cheating, rule-bending, asstards. Just some.

Ok, I can agree with what you're saying...and that you were not actually saying you COULD go and do all the low stuff to win....just that you can in gereral. I might not have worded my response as well as I could =)

You are 100% right that you have to choose your games. Funny thing is, people complain about EVERY torney that seems to have something go wrong, yet sign up for the next one. They are all saps.

and I'm sap #1 I guess cause i'll still sign up for the next one. heh.

quote:Originally posted by Kavanagh
Bustable scripts are sloppy code. Anyone using 3rd party scripts deserves whatever happens to them.

Ok, Kavanagh not picking on you in general, but I have seen this type of response before in threads here at EIS. It also goes something like like this
quote:If you use third party scripts, user beware

These are about as lame an excuse as "I was just doing my Job". Total BS and anyone who uses it is retarded

Funny part is those sound awful funny coming from "Scripters". If you actually took the time to sit down and write a proper script you would know how much effort goes into just ONE script. Let alone ONE script that works in tandem with another. Add in the error traping and NOW bug "spoofing" and you have yourself a small animal.
Now, you expect those who don't know **** about scripting to either compete without them (In which case they are at an immediate dis-advantage) or use them and they become responsible for the author's ****ty code?. Either way their ****ed.
Hmmm should i have that hot spear poked in my eye or in my azz? Either way it's gonna hurt.
Lame excuse for lame players.
Oh did i mention Lame?

hehe
Zoso

quote:
Now, you expect those who don't know **** about scripting to either compete without them (In which case they are at an immediate dis-advantage) or use them and they become responsible for the author's ****ty code?. Either way their ****ed

I understand where you're comin from Z, but there really is no basis for complainin about something thats provided free and without guarantees.
Sides, its not like every public script out there has thousands of deadly gaps just waiting to be exploited by tricksy connivin bastages . This particular hole was exploited once, and it will never be again. As rare and as difficult to implement as this tactic usually is, I dont see anythin to loose sleep over.

What I see most here is people who are too lazy to actually figure out how to make a safe script complaining about someone else taking advantage of that. Then, to mask their own laziness, they want to call it underhanded that someone would dare to try to break a script. Good God, is this what trade wars has come to? Next thing you know, you'll be complaining that it was unfair that someone attacked you before you were ready. Oh wait, I forgot, that happens frequently already. There was a time when people played without expecting their ENEMIES to give them a break. Is that time past? Why should your ENEMY give you a break?

One thing has NOTHING to do with the other Kemper, so please don't try to compare the two. Stay on the topic at hand. I have not been around a long time, so I don't know of these tactics going on for years and it just being "accepted". I think it's pretty sad actually that the defense for this is the simple saying, it's happened before so it can happen again cause it's apart of the game. If most people feel it's unacceptable, AND voice there concerns over it, that's how things get changed. Are you telling me that change does not come by voicing concerns and feelings about stuff?

Now about the Lazyness part. I'll give you a little here. It would always be better for people to use there own scritps, but not everyone knows how to. I for one don't, nor do I have the time to learn it right now. Does that mean I should always think someone is going to kill them by other means then ay9999* if i use a bot? I'd hope not. Does this then also mean I can't play tradewars? If so tell me and hey I'll leave and won't come back cause I can't write good scripts.

The tactic used was not intended to be done to the script. It was a way around...and not against any rules, just it was underhanded. I would not call it cheating, but I would call it a low blow. I also am not the only one by far that feels this way.

And contrary to how some people feel, certian scripts ARE needed to play this game now.