Well, finally got some time to post this. (I've tried 5 times now and gotten distracted.) I keep hearing "games are balanced towards reds", elites make blue's do crap work, all wanna play red, etc.

There are really 2 games out there, Stock and Non Stock (duh huh). Anyway, stock settings, the blue gets the really badass ship. The red, well he gets a Gunstar or CFS. Now who is gonna win that fight? Let me think...umm...the guy in the ISS. Now the blue probably doesn't have as much cash as the red does, but in the long run, has the better ship.

Now, we take some edited games. The "cool" ship has no requirements, so blue or red can use it. Planets are super producers, but go lvl4 so fast that the red can megarob within days. Or you have so many flippin turns, that the red can warp in and grab colos himself.

This is not to say that all edits are this way. But In general, I would have to say that if I had a 6 man corp, and 3 newer players, 1 would probably do more farming/furbing, the other 2 would run cashing. I would have on experienced red, and the other 2 experienced players out there hunting/exploring.

The more severe you make the edits (and don't provide a balance for blue not cashing as well) the harsher this "red are the ulimate" becomes. I play red alot. Not because it is so cool, but because it takes less time. I can login, run turns, do some work, be done. As a blue, I feel I should be at keys as much as possible.

If you find your games are highly skewed towards reds, try checking the following:

1.) Is the game MBBS (allowing megarob)?
2.) Is the best ship in the game a commish game? How close is the next coolest ship?
3.) Are the ships tricked out for reds?
4.) Is there Rob Delay?
5.) Can you Rob from a Buy Port?
6.) What is Rob and Steal Factor?

Well I am not saying that you should do anything with option 4 and 5, I'm just pointing out they exist.

Many popular edits today do not have a better blue ship than red, so other than colo, and jump to fed, there is not a huge advantage to blue.

There are tons of way to help balance the odds if you feel they are skewed red, but some of them are not what is always popular.

Jhereg

I constantly hear about playing more balanced games. Yet when I enter servers with more balanced games ie stock or close to stock usually 1-2 players or maybe 4-5 are all who show up. Now there may be several reasons for this. 1 it's not a well known/played server. 2 many players only play where there friends play. 3 balanced games suck or are not as exciting as the heavey edited games. I am not making a judgement on this , just an observation, of my experience.

I have seen in general, that very few people really enjoy playing stock (personally I don't enjoy 30 day planets). So perhaps that is it, or it is more people have their own view of what is balanced, and each persons is different..

Jhereg

From what I've seen, outside of unlimited turn games, most people want to play the games where red play has very little place. Even stock is weighted blue, just most people don't realize it. If anyone disagrees with this, I'd be willing to play them a low turn 1 vs 1 stock game, they red, me blue.

I think Harley is right. From what I see, except for the people you see here, the larger percentage of TW players out there don't understand red or say they just don't like it...it's not the way they learned to play the game, it's cheap, yada yada (which also says to me they probably dont' understand it, but I dunno...).

I'm with Rofellos on this one , i think that most of the players that complain about red players and game that Reds are in alot, are mostly people who don't understand Red play or haven't got enough time at keys to even try to understand it. mainly Newbs i am not picking on them because in Tw's i am a newb to alot of things still. Stock games are blue weighted on this i am with Harley in 1vs.1 blue will almost always beat the red not enough turn to really be effective and ship selection really stinks for red in stock game. So the only thing i can really say about this is if you don't like the edits someplace don't play there till they bang a game that you find the edits more suitable to your standards.

Suddenly you hear a faint metallic click on the side of you hull...

Quoted from movie Forrest Gump:
"Life is like a box of chocolate you never now what you gonna get"
p.s. unless you read game edits before you start game...LOL

personally i always thought stock games favored red play (yes, me = stoopid noobie)
but then, shrug, i've never played a solo stock game, and id be happy to take up kemps offer heh

I also think stock are the hardest to play. You have to know how to play. No running around without thinking. Waste of precious turns. Ships are specialized unlike most edited games where there is one GOD ship for everything and there is a planet that pumps out all you want. You have to diversify and think.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

ok, you all told me to "learn the math," I still haven't learned much game math, but there is one game math I learned early.

You get in the game, you are in a ship that gets 4 turns per warp (or even 3) you are blue. You go about making cash by trading. It costs you 6 to 8 turns for one trading cycle. If your ship has 150 holds you are gonna make about 13k to 20k profit (if you are good and find the port pairs quickly). Let's say you got a 3 turn per warp ship. You make your high end profit of 20K, but you used 6 turns to make it. 20 divided by 6 is 3.33K per turn.

Now, you say, screw this I'm not making enough money. You go RED, get a second ship with 150 holds, park them next to each other, fill their holds with equipment. Then you simply ship transport back and forth selling the same holds of equipment and stealing them back again. You make a fortune, now you buy ships with 250 holds! You do the SST thing. You are making close to 32,000 crediits PER Transport! That's 32,000 credits and it cost you 1 turns to transport, 1 turn to port, and 1 turn to steal! 32,000 divided by 3 is over 10,600 credits PER TURN!

How can anyone look at this very simplistic and although not accurate it's a good estimate math and conclude that evils have no real cash advantage???

How is changing a ship edit, or a planet edit, or a warp edit, or any other kind of game edit going to take away this advantage? It's simply not going to!

Yes, blues get the colonists, but if the red player is teamed with a blue player, there goes that advantage.

Yes, blues have better ship, until the sysop goes into the game editor and creates a "intergalactic planet buster deluxe" starship that anyone can buy!

I'm just saying, anyone who concludes that Reds have no real advantage is just not being honest about it! Certainly, once the blue gets his L4 planet he can make what the evil was making and then some by planet trading, however, keep in mind, the evil also got his L4 planet on the same day (if he is even a mediocre player)! Spome have argued "yes the evil also got his L4 but he doesn't have the colonists). Well, debatable, but even if that's true, any evil who has played making this kind of cash for 14 days or even 10, and hasn't found a "blue" player to take colonists from using all the cash he's made, well this is not a "worthy" evil, and no someone I'm going to base my game edits on.

But let's say the evil is a good player, he just don't have any good blue players to take colonists from (either by invasion or team work). Now, he's got a couple of L4, is there a way he can use them to boost his cash flow?

Ok, he's been ssting now for days in colonials. He takes his L4 planet to a port that buys equipment. He takes his second L4 planet to a nearby port the buys equipment. He places his colonials in that sector. Wait, though, he's got no colonists so the planets got no equipment to sell to the port. Not a problem. He upgrades the port in the equipment group by 250! Now, there's 2500 equipment to steal from that port, sitting there on the port instantaneously!

He ports, steals 250 holds, places it on the planet, transports, does the same thing in the other ship, then goes back and forth 10 times, stealing a total of 5000 equipment in 20 turns. Now, he negotiates a trade with both ports, and sells that 5000 equipment back in 2 turns.

Now, he's got 1000 turns a day to do this all day long. Meanwhile, the Blue player can only sell the equipment that he either 1. buys, or 2. has his slaves produce!

Who's got the advantage with the L4 planet?

Sheesh, c'mon guys, let's just be honest, Evil Rules and Blue Drools!

If red has no real advantage, tell me this, why do you go into most games where the "elite" players are playing and look at the player list and see nothing but RED next to the elite players slot number?

hmmmm.

Is there a possibility you can condense your posts by a few chapters? [:D]

quote:Originally posted by LetsDrinkCoke

Is there a possibility you can condense your posts by a few chapters? [:D]


Never!

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord

You get in the game, you are in a ship that gets 4 turns per warp (or even 3) you are blue. You go about making cash by trading. It costs you 6 to 8 turns for one trading cycle. If your ship has 150 holds you are gonna make about 13k to 20k profit (if you are good and find the port pairs quickly). Let's say you got a 3 turn per warp ship. You make your high end profit of 20K, but you used 6 turns to make it. 20 divided by 6 is 3.33K per turn.



Well in a 3tpw ship, it is 8 turns. (6 to warp, 2 to dock)

quote:
Now, you say, screw this I'm not making enough money. You go RED, get a second ship with 150 holds, park them next to each other, fill their holds with equipment. Then you simply ship transport back and forth selling the same holds of equipment and stealing them back again. You make a fortune, now you buy ships with 250 holds! You do the SST thing. You are making close to 32,000 crediits PER Transport! That's 32,000 credits and it cost you 1 turns to transport, 1 turn to port, and 1 turn to steal! 32,000 divided by 3 is over 10,600 credits PER TURN!


While the above calcuations are correct. There are some factors you have not included. Bust, furb, getting the experience to do all this. Depending on game settings you could need upwards of 7500 exp JUST to do this full hold robbing. Assuming stocking settings, I think a full COLT is around 800k (just guessing). With it costing 35k per 75 experience, you need 3.5M to get that experience. So using this as basic numbers, you need say 3M for busting up because you traded some, and say another 1.5M for ships. That is now 4.5M creds you need just to do this. Using your example above of 10,600 per turn...you would need 425 turns to so to make that cash. Now that of course assumes you never bust (if you bust you need more holds). Now are you going to drive your 6tpw ship to a Class0 / 9? Are you going to tow it? Were is the tow ship? How many turn are you spending to put your two ships in position? What do you do when you bust at a port? What if bust only clear every 7 days?


quote:
How can anyone look at this very simplistic and although not accurate it's a good estimate math and conclude that evils have no real cash advantage???

How is changing a ship edit, or a planet edit, or a warp edit, or any other kind of game edit going to take away this advantage? It's simply not going to!


See above. There are many factors that are not included in your original calculations. Moving ships and stuff is VERY expensive on turns.

quote:
Yes, blues get the colonists, but if the red player is teamed with a blue player, there goes that advantage.


Now you are not comparing a red cashing to a blue, you are comparing a red and blue cashing compared to a blue with a blue. Two VERY different situations. So if you are stating that some games a red can make more cash than a blue with the help of a blue, I don't think anybody is disagreeing. We are discussing if a game is favoring the red.

More included in next post to break it up some.

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord
I'm just saying, anyone who concludes that Reds have no real advantage is just not being honest about it! Certainly, once the blue gets his L4 planet he can make what the evil was making and then some by planet trading, however, keep in mind, the evil also got his L4 planet on the same day (if he is even a mediocre player)! Spome have argued "yes the evil also got his L4 but he doesn't have the colonists). Well, debatable, but even if that's true, any evil who has played making this kind of cash for 14 days or even 10, and hasn't found a "blue" player to take colonists from using all the cash he's made, well this is not a "worthy" evil, and no someone I'm going to base my game edits on.

The red is cashing, the blue is exploring. Blue finds red, red is dead. Blue has red planets. Tomorrow red is in a scout. Unless we assume the blue only colos, and does nothing else. In which case he didn't lose because he coloed, he lost because he doesn't know how to play blue.

quote:
But let's say the evil is a good player, he just don't have any good blue players to take colonists from (either by invasion or team work). Now, he's got a couple of L4, is there a way he can use them to boost his cash flow?

Ok, he's been ssting now for days in colonials. He takes his L4 planet to a port that buys equipment. He takes his second L4 planet to a nearby port the buys equipment. He places his colonials in that sector. Wait, though, he's got no colonists so the planets got no equipment to sell to the port. Not a problem. He upgrades the port in the equipment group by 250! Now, there's 2500 equipment to steal from that port, sitting there on the port instantaneously!

He ports, steals 250 holds, places it on the planet, transports, does the same thing in the other ship, then goes back and forth 10 times, stealing a total of 5000 equipment in 20 turns. Now, he negotiates a trade with both ports, and sells that 5000 equipment back in 2 turns.

Now, he's got 1000 turns a day to do this all day long. Meanwhile, the Blue player can only sell the equipment that he either 1. buys, or 2. has his slaves produce!

Who's got the advantage with the L4 planet?


Same probem with furbs, etc. I would recommend just planet trading. Now lets assume the red someone miracled his fuel also to move his planets as he keeps busting? The blue got it from colos.

quote:
Sheesh, c'mon guys, let's just be honest, Evil Rules and Blue Drools!

If red has no real advantage, tell me this, why do you go into most games where the "elite" players are playing and look at the player list and see nothing but RED next to the elite players slot number?

hmmmm.


Sure I'll bite. Who are these "elites"? Are these is games were once again the edits are made to favor red (see the point to this post), or are these all high turn, unlim games were you run WSSM?

Wait, there is another possibility, an I guess I could understand. A good perma like ST or DU gets in a game. And 1/2 of them are red, and 1/2 are blue. Yah, those guys who play blue SUCK and the red players are the only good ones on the perma. Wait, no that isn't it. They are all good players, they split up red and blue because they needed both.

So overall, I haven't seen one of the original points disputed, only more or less agreed on. So I stand by my original statement.

Jhereg

quote:Originally posted by Draconis

Well in a 3tpw ship, it is 8 turns. (6 to warp, 2 to dock)


Ok i'll count them out maybe I'm wrong.

I am at sector 2854 I port and trade 1 turn. I warp to 2897 that's 3 turns (3 plus 1) is 4. Now I port and trade and make my profit. 5 turns. (1 cycle. I now just spent 5 turns to make 20k profit (give or take depending on ship and the port). I warp back to 2854 it took me 3 turns to get there, I've used 8 turns, I port and make MORE profit, 9 turns. (I've made profit twice, therefore the port pair cycle is at 2 cycles) I warp back to 2897 and port and trade, that's 13 turns. (3 cycles) I warp to 2854 and trade, that's 17 turns. (4 cycles) I warp to 2897 and trade, that's 21 turns. (5 cycles) I warp to 2854 and trade that's 25 turns. (6 cycles) I warp to 2897 that's 29 turns. (7 cycles) I warp and trade to 2854, that's 33 turns. (8 cycles). I warp and trade at 2854 that's 37 turns (9 cycles). I warp and trade at 2897 that's 41 turns (10 cycles). If I'm averaging 20k per cycle (which is high amount of profit in a ship that has 3 warps), I've just made 200k in 41 turns.

Now put me in two ships next to each other (or close by) same amount of holds. I port and steal 150 holds, then sell it back, 20k in 2 turns. I warp to the other ship (I've spent 3 turns) now I warp to the second ship that's 4 turns. I port and steal, 5 turns, I sell it back, another 20k. I've made 40k in 5 turns whereas the good player has made 20k in 5 turns. I'm making twice the blue per turns!

If I count this way, the numbers I gave work out!

It all depends on how you count. I only have to count the number of turns it takes to make EACH profit, the number of turns it takes to go BACK to the first port are NOT included because I've already made my profit, and going back to the first port is a WHOLE new cycle because I'm going to make profit the minute I get there!
quote:
There are some factors you have not included. Bust, furb, getting the experience to do all this.

Heh with the money I'm making as an evil all those things are child's play especially if I have a fed safe blue partner who goes to stardock and buy merchant freighters with full holds for me to destroy when I need to refurb my ships.

quote:
Depending on game settings you could need upwards of 7500 exp JUST to do this full hold robbing.


Again, with the money I'm making it's child's play. Take me about one to two days to get there depending on turns.

quote:
Were is the tow ship? How many turn are you spending to put your two ships in position? What do you do when you bust at a port? What if bust only clear every 7 days?

Don't have to do either. If I don't have a blue partner, I just think ahead, buy a few merchant freighters with full holds, make them personal, when I get busted I sit in my steal ship, destroy the merc, walla, I salvage 22 holds!

quote:
There are many factors that are not included in your original calculations. Moving ships and stuff is VERY expensive on turns.

No argument there, but consider this, if I get busted I gotta move that ship (which may require a twarp tow kinda expensive) but meanwhile, the blue is flying around spending 4 turns every time he moves and ports (in a 3 per turn warp ship). Never forget that.

quote:

So if you are stating that some games a red can make more cash than a blue with the help of a blue, I don't think anybody is disagreeing. We are discussing if a game is favoring the red.

What good evil player DOESN'T have the help of a blue? And you are right you wouldn't THINK anyone would disagree but see Gyspy's post several posts earlier. Of course I'm going to take and put the "blue help scenario" into the equation because it's a STANDARD! What game anywhere do you have serious red players who don't have some blue somewhere getting cols and refurbs for them? It just doesn't happen.

quote:Originally posted by Draconis

Blue finds red, red is dead. Blue has red planets.


IF the blue finds the red, and has made enough to kill him, which is doubtful considering reds make twice and even more times that of the blue.

quote:
I would recommend just planet trading.


I was trying to go on the assumption that the red has no cols at all with no blues helping (heh not a real scenario but it seems like some here want to go back to that for some reason).

quote:
Now lets assume the red someone miracled his fuel also to move his planets as he keeps busting? The blue got it from his cols.

So true but in the "real world" the evil has cols too! But let's say he don't. Let's say he's a not well liked player named SGO and no one wants to work with him

How can he get ore to warp his planets? Well, let's see. There's a port that sells ore! Bingo! He upgrades the port by 500 in the ore group. Now there's 5000 ore to steal (or buy if he's in a hurry). Ok, he had to use his colonial so it cost him 20 turns to get that ore. He'll make up for it believe me, when he starts his SSD cycle. No miracle, just the power of money in the game.

quote:
Sure I'll bite. Who are these "elites"? Are these is games were once again the edits are made to favor red (see the point to this post), or are these all high turn, unlim games were you run WSSM?

Man, of course there are a lot of edits and variable depending on those edits, but the bottom line here is, in any universe the red can steal and rob, the blue can't. That equals cash advantage. Any edit you create to help the blue is going to benefit a RED who's worth his salt!

quote:
Yah, those guys who play blue SUCK and the red players are the only good ones on the perma. Wait, no that isn't it.


Man, I never said anything of the like in any post! You have me confused with someone else! The blue player in a split alignment corp is just as vital as the Red player, no doubt about that.
The point is this, as long as it's possible to split align your corp, or mega corp, reds have the advantage in ANY game, ANY edit, bottom line.


quote:
So overall, I haven't seen one of the original points disputed, only more or less agreed on. So I stand by my original statement.

We have agreed for the most part, except you see the furb thing and the bust thing as a bigger liability than it really is, and except that you counted the "return" trip to the first port in the turn useage calculation and that's just now how it works flatly! To figure how much you are making per turn you only count the turns it took you to make the FIRST profit. To AVERAGE how much you are making per turn you don't count the return trip either. You would count the cash you made going from port A to port B 10 times, (Not going from port A to port A!) You count the turns it takes to go from port A to port B (10 times) divided by the turn useage to go from port A to port B. You started making profit at port B, therefore, when you avereage you FINISH at port B. This explains to me how the Vito World Trade script in JAVA keeps reporting the wrong averages per hour. It's probably figuring port A to B to A!

Shrug.