Well the Verdict is in, and all versions of TWGS past .55 are UNSTABLE, and have added features, that do not make the game STABLE, only creat MORE LAME Butt BUGS.


I have tried to share in the SYSOP forum but GYP and NUSS always kick RES OFF THE BUS, any way this current version .62 is 100% JUNK.

MASSIVE PEEPS DROP, while others DO NOT DROP, this 'time sync' bug is GROWING WORSE, with each new release.


I tried to say this once, and well this post prolly get deleted...any any I SUGGEST to you JP, that you EITHER SELL TWGS CODE, and back off before Tradewars is RUINED FOREVER.

More and more people NOT playing and losing interest fast.

I am very disapointed that TWGS has taken a direction that will FOREVER RUIN TW as we know it.

Res Judicata

PS plz wise up, REVERT ALL YOUR SOUCE CODE To ver 55. ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG TO make so many UNNECESSARY CHANGES, not BUG FIXES, DONT ****ING say BUG FIX, cuz that bull**** and you know it...and keep the STABLE advances you had so far in ver .55.

many many people tell me how sorry they are cuz Gypsy has anything to do with TWGS, and JP, well JP I leave it to you, continue to waste your time and DESTROY THIS GAME....

I am sick and TIRED of watching TWGS DIE for no ******* good REASON.


Res Judicata

I find it hilarious you of all people talking about driving people away from the game, but that aside .62 hasn’t been released publicly it is really only .61 with a new auditing tool built in to try and pin point where the issues are occurring, of course you knew that because you are obviously so informed and educated. .62 was given to 3 TWGS operators who reported issues with .61 because the issues are not happening on the test server, these TWGS operators (River Rat, Vader and Vid Kid) agreed to test this version and give EIS the output from any errors that occur, so far 1 TWGS has reported an error and that data is being analyzed and will be corrected in a timely manner.

Without starting a flame war, here is my thinking:

We finally have someone trying to work on the software and tons of peeps have began publicly trashing those people. I am also not happy with some of the proposed changes that were being kicked around, but at the same time there are issues that certainly need to be fixed (photoning dock) as people will surely take advantage of them now that they are widely known. I understand why people are mad about certain things, but give the guy a break. He is working to fix something and maybe, just maybe, make it a better product as an end result. I dont mind voicing disagreement, but please dont drive him off from even trying to continue to fix things that are broken. I for one would like to be able to not have to boot people from my server for using known bugs. Fixes like these to old code, I would assume, dont happen overnight. He has only been at this for a little while so lets all give him a chance to get things fixed and then we can all whine about the finished product if we hate it. Finally, there will be lots of peeps who still run .55 if it is the most stable version, so I wouldnt worry too much about it. If we dont like the final result, we will stick with the old rather than the new.

i guess i will throw in my opinion cause that is just what i do. here is my take, short and sweet. when i came back first (early this millenium, heh) to this new and cool "multiplayer twars" i thought it was a great improvement (dunno what version it was back then) and then i took a couple years off for various reasons (military etc..) and its on v58 or so (march) now it is a testing of .62 this means 2 things to me,
A)things are wrong with twars
B)people are trying to fix them as soon as they can in anyway they know how.
now as anyone who knows me knows, i know sh^t about programming and all that garbage, but something has caused people to quit since i played awhile back. some is because of changes in twgs, some is due to the boom of script kiddies, some is because they dont like people talking ****. if it can go from a single player, 100 turn game with 1 ship to what it is today, then if we give it time, and have FAITH that the people trying to fix the problems will eventually fix them all, then we will end up with a great game that will have no problem attracting fresh new players. after rejoining the twars community in march i decided i wanted to contribute in anyway i can to make the game more enjoyable for all to play so we can keep people. when i see a bug, i report it, when something happens i dont understand, i ask about it, when people ask me for help/info, i give it, when people **** with my grid, i pod them, (unless prior written approval, hehe) ok, so i cant make a whole post without 1 joke in it, sue me. point is, twars is a fun game, some changes suck, and in time hopefully will be fixed, .61 SUCKS, time sync bugs.. they blow and if i was a programmer id donate all my free time to help you guys out, but i suck so im sorry, heh. i guess maybe that wasnt so short and sweet.. my bad

Slim

As a developer (or former developer) I can understand the challegenes that face other developers to get rid of app killing bugs while at the same time adding in new features.

I also understand that TWGS is still in beta, IIRC. So what part of beta test did we not understand? It exists to have the bugs reported on so they can be fixed. Last known good beta was .55, but JP and company are doing their best to get another good beta out. Look at how fast the beta releases are coming out.

If versions made after .55 you have issues with, only play on servers than run .55 until the problem is fixed. Just like I know people still use Windows 98, when XP is out there. They have issues with XP, so they stick with an older version of Windows.

Res, I respect you as a player, you are one of the best. Until you develop your own game and try to fix all the bugs in it and please everyone, you may not understand how JP and the others feel. In case you missed it, you cannot please everyone, as that is an impossibility.

See if EIS will license the Tradewars IP to you and then you can make your own version. Don't have the cash to do so? Better play the lottery as I do, or find a way to get the cash to license Tradewars and then develop on .55 and up and see if you can do a different job. Personally, I would hire on some people (Die Hard Expert TW Gamers) as game consultants and write the game from scratch after licensing the Tradewars IP from EIS. That way I can try to avoid some of the game-killing bugs, and hope to make the game more stable. Just my two cents.

It is easy to get frustrated when there are problems of the nature and caliber the TWGS has been experiencing, it's also easy to sit back and judge. Yet, the comments I am about to make are aimed AT MYSELF as much as they are aimed at you Res Judicate, because I made similar comments to the ones you've made in this string over at another forum site. Harley called me on those comments and he was correct, they were way off base.

Res, have you ever programmed a game like Twars? I know I haven't! My only question to you is, if you think you could do better at fixing this game, how come YOU didn't step up to the plate and get your hands dirty? I KNOW for a fact that John Pritchett needs COMPETENT programmers who will step up and put their talent to use on this game! If you think you know so much about it, how come you aren't offering your services?

I think your comments are OUTRAGEOUS! I made them too, and I regret them believe me.

You will find that sometimes when you are angry about something, it's best not to post in the forums. Sometimes it's best to just sit back and let a few days pass, and go play golf or something man!

John Pritchett has put this game lightyears ahead of what it was when he first started working on it! Furthermore, he continues to bust his butt, and you know what, I have a feeling that there's little financial gain to be had in the endeavor! That's just a su****ion I have.

I would like to say something about the EIS support team.

I've criticized them in the past as well. There's one that I just personally don't like! But, I have to say, these guys are VOLUNTEERS. They do not get anything out of it, except personal satisfaction!

How dare anyone criticize them?

I was wrong, and I apologize from the bottom of my heart. And Res YOU ARE WRONG! Publish a retraction right away. I've had nothing but respect for you up until now.

Be a man! Admit you were wrong and we'll all have a good laff at your expense and we'll move on.

Sgo

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar

As a developer (or former developer) I can understand the challegenes that face other developers to get rid of app killing bugs while at the same time adding in new features.


I want to say heh.. that might get my post removed however (even tho it is in smack talk)..
so i'll just say
laff
quote:

I also understand that TWGS is still in beta, IIRC. So what part of beta test did we not understand? It exists to have the bugs reported on so they can be fixed. Last known good beta was .55, but JP and company are doing their best to get another good beta out. Look at how fast the beta releases are coming out.


Yea, Still, after 10 years of TWGS (not sure when it was first released). I think JP should go to work for microsoft personally (In no way am I saying anything about JP or microsoft, Your impression is your impression and the comparison is just that simple)
quote:

If versions made after .55 you have issues with, only play on servers than run .55 until the problem is fixed. Just like I know people still use Windows 98, when XP is out there. They have issues with XP, so they stick with an older version of Windows.


JP should release stable fixes..
ie .55.xxx of version .55 and that would be the best of both worlds, he could get .55 stable and start adding new featurs to .56.xxxx (more work but probably more love)
quote:

Res, I respect you as a player, you are one of the best. Until you develop your own game and try to fix all the bugs in it and please everyone, you may not understand how JP and the others feel. In case you missed it, you cannot please everyone, as that is an impossibility.


I dont think res really cares about pleasing anyone (other than himself). I belive that his account is "messed up" and not "locked out or banned" because I think he's not able to get on and post. (hmm)
quote:

See if EIS will license the Tradewars IP to you and then you can make your own version. Don't have the cash to do so? Better play the lottery as I do, or find a way to get the cash to license Tradewars and then develop on .55 and up and see if you can do a different job. Personally, I would hire on some people (Die Hard Expert TW Gamers) as game consultants and write the game from scratch after licensing the Tradewars IP from EIS. That way I can try to avoid some of the game-killing bugs, and hope to make the game more stable. Just my two cents.


JP wont do it (It's been asked in the past).

I can't IMAGINE anyone else but JP controlling this game developement! Things are rocky right now, but you watch and see.

Sgo

I think that Res is in the minority with regards to being 'upset' about the progress of TWGS v3.11.xx. The changes that have been released so far in and of themselves are 'fine' by most players. I don't think Res objects to the removal of the ability to photon dock, removal of a lot of globals related bugs, and so on so forth. What I don't understand/like is the programming methodology that I have witnessed in the past few months. Most programmers have an innate desire to fix code and release it right away. The mark of an experienced/professional programmer is the ability to profile/test/debug an application without the need to release it to the public for 'feedback'. Quite frankly, if the code was written in any logical way, it should be modular enough to thoroughly test all use cases. I would think that having sysops return reports detailing 'symptoms and theorized causes' would be very much a hit and miss process; I certainly wouldn't think it is the easiest nor most efficient method of narrowing down issues. Making the situation worse, some of the more 'popular' servers are upgrading their public twgs systems to the newer, unstable versions. This in effect, forces players who don't want to 'test' out a system go somewhere less reputable, less stable, etc. IMO, paying ~90 dollars for a system that is obviously difficult to extend and that has serious flaws in it is somewhat unfair. But that's just my opinion.

quote:Originally posted by Doctor Who
I belive that his account is "messed up" and not "locked out or banned" because I think he's not able to get on and post. (hmm)


I haven't received any reports of any technical issues with user accounts, and since the one you are referring too seems to be capable of logging on, reading and posting I have to assume there must not be a problem.

0-2

quote:Originally posted by Didaskalos

I think that Res is in the minority with regards to being 'upset' about the progress of TWGS v3.11.xx. The changes that have been released so far in and of themselves are 'fine' by most players. I don't think Res objects to the removal of the ability to photon dock, removal of a lot of globals related bugs, and so on so forth. What I don't understand/like is the programming methodology that I have witnessed in the past few months. Most programmers have an innate desire to fix code and release it right away. The mark of an experienced/professional programmer is the ability to profile/test/debug an application without the need to release it to the public for 'feedback'. Quite frankly, if the code was written in any logical way, it should be modular enough to thoroughly test all use cases. I would think that having sysops return reports detailing 'symptoms and theorized causes' would be very much a hit and miss process; I certainly wouldn't think it is the easiest nor most efficient method of narrowing down issues. Making the situation worse, some of the more 'popular' servers are upgrading their public twgs systems to the newer, unstable versions. This in effect, forces players who don't want to 'test' out a system go somewhere less reputable, less stable, etc. IMO, paying ~90 dollars for a system that is obviously difficult to extend and that has serious flaws in it is somewhat unfair. But that's just my opinion.



1st from the sounds of your long and varied multiplayer game programming experience you should contact a headhunter because Sony Interactive, Origin, NC Soft, Blizzard and a host of others would love to have a programmer that is capable of overhauling their development methods where feedback from end users is not needed let alone someone who has figured logical way to program in a manner is logical enough to test all use cases. because if you look at any of these major game developers and you will see they have a very long history of revisions, most fully dependant on end user feedback. I am sure they would pay you huge sums of money for you to educate them on your ability to make development, testing and production release so lucid.

2nd .61 is the public release and it does fix nasty game bugs least of which is photoning stardock. The dropping issue is not universal it has only been reported by a few systems, and hasn’t occurred at all on the test system, which gets a pretty steady stream of play. Those systems that do upgrade are not required to do so, as a matter of fact with the intention of narrowing the number of systems affected by issues with new releases we have asked a very small number of systems to run a special version of the software that has an auditing system specifically in place to try and locate the cause for these intermittent issues.

3rd Not very many people pay the full price for the TWGS package, and no one pays 90 dollars, and everyone who installs the software agrees to the software agreement, you should read it, pay special attention to #7

I agree with what Didaskalos is saying, in an ideal world. In reality, I am one guy, and I don't have the resources to hire a team of internal testers. I have to rely on the community for the level of testing that is necessary to identify some bugs. Also, I'm working with a code base that originated in the late 80s, by a hobbyist programmer. Though I would like to write my own engine for a new Trade Wars and other games, I continue to use the old code base and am very much limited by the structure (or lack thereof) of it. It's not surprising that TWGS, which I wrote from the ground up, has been very stable for most of its lifetime. If I design and code something from the ground up, I am able to achieve the goals that Didaskalos suggests. If anyone has ever worked with a legacy program, they know how difficult it can be to add new features or even to fix existing bugs. There is no "quality control" for a monstrosity like Trade Wars.

In this particular case, regarding the work I've done since .55, we're dealing entirely with one problem. It goes back to a less obvious problem that has existed in the game since v3 was written, and it's an architectural limitation more than a "bug". This has to do with the way the game passes messages between player sessions, for things like FedCom, as well as internal event messages. In rare cases, it is possible for messages to be lost. Whenever a message is critical, this can cause problems. Post .55, I have been attempting to make the message processing system bulletproof. While my attempts may have solved the problem, they have created new ones. This sometimes happens. For now, I'm going to pull the changes related to message processing and see if the bugs we're experiencing quiet down. This version will be released to closed beta, .64, in the next day or two, and if it is stable, I'll get a post .55 revision out to the public that is more stable than .55. I will then go back and attempt to resolve the messaging issue in closed testing without "bothering" any of you.

I think a bit of Marketing would HELP TW, say an OFFICIAL SANCTIONED TOURNEY
with PRIZES, free twgs codes, some helper codes, get a nice big community game going.

TW lacks Leadership today, lots of new players.

Be nice if EIS would take more of an active ROLE
some kewl Tshirts even LOL


Res Judicata

AM playing on ver 63 on Alien Base
NO PROBLEMS YET with being droped.

Res

Heh. Thanks man for starting and continuing to work on this. I am not crazy about some of the changes that were proposed early on, but am happy that there is a possibility that all major bugs will be fixed and that someday there could be changes to the basic tradewars program much like limpets and new ships. Keep up the good, and even sometimes not so good work and you arent bothering anyone. I have tried each new public revision and have reverted to 55 each time but will continue to try them out until one is stable.

Thanks again for re-starting your work on TW.