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| Trader's Shootout https://mail.black-squirrel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12302 |
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| Author: | Vader [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:49 am ] |
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Ok. I've come to a decision on last night's events. First, I wanna say I'm extremely disappointed in the actions of big12ozhog and Doctor Who. Both used bugs, whether purposely or not, and ruined a very good game. It doesn't matter if it was done on purpose, they were used. For this, both are banned from Black Sun for an undetermined time. A corp was cheated very badly and I'm very sorry for that. Just not a lot that can be done for that now. Therefore, game is going to be ended immediately. I'm sorry to all that are playing it, but not really any other way to go. I'm also going to upgrade versions to .61. I thought perhaps I could trust people to play like adults and not do something just because they could. I was wrong. I run a clean board and I just can't have players coming in and ruining all the work I've put into it. Things like this, I can see now, make ops won't to just say screw it and shut down. I think perhaps some of us need to evaluate our selves and maybe see the problem isn't others. |
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| Author: | Rick Mead (teamEIS) [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 2:11 am ] |
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quote:Originally posted by Vader Ok. I've come to a decision on last night's events. First, I wanna say I'm extremely disappointed in the actions of big12ozhog and Doctor Who. Both used bugs, whether purposely or not, and ruined a very good game. It doesn't matter if it was done on purpose, they were used. For this, both are banned from Black Sun for an undetermined time. A corp was cheated very badly and I'm very sorry for that. Just not a lot that can be done for that now. Therefore, game is going to be ended immediately. I'm sorry to all that are playing it, but not really any other way to go. I'm also going to upgrade versions to .61. I thought perhaps I could trust people to play like adults and not do something just because they could. I was wrong. I run a clean board and I just can't have players coming in and ruining all the work I've put into it. Things like this, I can see now, make ops won't to just say screw it and shut down. I think perhaps some of us need to evaluate our selves and maybe see the problem isn't others. Vader you run a good clean game from everything I have ever heard, and certainly should run it however you see fit, I read FC's post and from what I gathered Doctor Who rode the pause prompt correct? If this is not the case please correct me but if it is then you are missing a ban somewhere because ptorping fed space requires 2 people OZ didn't do it by himself... Also If you are punishing riding a prompt as you are ptorping fed space that is like sentencing a person to death for shoplifting a candy bar. I think the public humiliation of this is more then penalty for that crime, the ptorp on the other hand is a calculated intentional use of an exploit and was used in this case to destroy the game intentionally. Certainly that offense deserves not only banning from your server, but I would recommend to any SysOp / GameOp that wants clean games to ban known offender(s) from games run on their servers as well. SysOp's / GameOp's over the history of Trade Wars have routinely shared information on dupers and cheaters so that a universal ban on major games was enforced on known offenders. I am pretty confident that if the names of those involved in this weren't so high profile the crys for cross TWGS IP banning would already have been made, but I certainly wouldn't allow these types of players in my games. |
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| Author: | Didaskalos [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:06 am ] |
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big12 is not a cheating player; he made a mistake for which his reputation has suffered enormously. furthermore he has introduced doubt as to the 'fair-play' of the players he corps with. i know if he had to do it over again he would not repeat his actions. doc who is a standup player as well. he's a sneaky bastard, and he definitely marches to the beat of his own drum. i personally would not be offended if someone rode a pause prompt on me. i've had it done to me and i've also used it. I do understand why others would be offended by its use; now that it has been officially labeled a bug by EIS i would not use it. but all of the wankers who have come out of the closet to bash doc and call into question his success are just lame. if doc wanted to win by using bugs you would never last past day 1 against him. ever. u may not like either of them, but this situation arose from a personal dispute between the two of them, and does not reflect the normal standard of play to which they both adhere. and most people know that. |
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| Author: | Rick Mead (teamEIS) [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:36 am ] |
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quote:Originally posted by Didaskalos big12 is not a cheating player; he made a mistake for which his reputation has suffered enormously. furthermore he has introduced doubt as to the 'fair-play' of the players he corps with. i know if he had to do it over again he would not repeat his actions. doc who is a standup player as well. he's a sneaky bastard, and he definitely marches to the beat of his own drum. i personally would not be offended if someone rode a pause prompt on me. i've had it done to me and i've also used it. I do understand why others would be offended by its use; now that it has been officially labeled a bug by EIS i would not use it. but all of the wankers who have come out of the closet to bash doc and call into question his success are just lame. if doc wanted to win by using bugs you would never last past day 1 against him. ever. u may not like either of them, but this situation arose from a personal dispute between the two of them, and does not reflect the normal standard of play to which they both adhere. and most people know that. It's no secret I have no love for doctor who, but I think that he plays honorably and I don't consider this even a blemish on his record or his character as a player, I think the penalty for him is a little out of the ordinary, but knowing him he will most likely accept whatever is given to him and move on and i agree this incident does not reflect his normal standard of play. But on the other hand you have another couple of players who intentionally ruined a game by using a known exploit with no gray area because they thought they were above it. As Vader has already demonstrated by having to post this thread it damaged his TWGS and he is also a victim. I disagree with you but someone who shows this type of character is very much showing the standard of play they a normally capable of. Of course he and his partner in crime wouldn't do this again if they had to over again, they got caught, that doesn't diminish the severity of the offense, and there is no offense higher then what they did and it should be punished accordingly. The idea that they used this exploit to gain an advantage is bad enough, but to destroy a game on a free public server because they were upset about someone's actions in the game, we may as well ok DOS attacks on TWGS when people feel slighted. Sorry but Doctor Who's offence in this is minimal at best the other 2 should be crucified, and most people know that too. |
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| Author: | Didaskalos [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:53 am ] |
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shrug, i'll not dispute the fact that i am heavily biased for big12 - i've known him the entire time i've played tw and he is on my perma. i also know he is a one of the best players in the game and that he didn't photon SD with the idea that he'd get away with it (ie not get caught). i'm not gonna stand here and try to excuse for any reason his behavior - it was one of the dumbest moves i've ever seen. given the context of the game (this might bore you, so feel free to stop reading), I personally think oz photoned stardock so he could stop playing the game. given the fact that the edits were so wacked (2.2M damage tholians that can land and have photons [gawd what was the author thinking]) and the competition was mobile, the game had the potential to go on for a long long long time. Also, i know oz was unhappy about his corpmates never being at keys and him having to remote or bot them. dw sitting on the pause prompt was most likely the straw that broke the proverbial camels back. i know oz will never concede a game that he is obviously winning, but to continue playing single-handedly was probably something he didn't relish. so he decided to end it the only way he could without conceding defeat. and that's my speculation for the evening. ya, it was wrong, stupid, etc. but oz doesn't normally pull this stuff. also, as a side note, he probably photoned stardock by himself, with the help of a bot or a remote session. but i could be wrong. i was the one that told vader that he needed to ban oz. not because i dont like oz, but because it WAS a dumbass maneuver that needed to be properly addressed so as to not ruin the reputation of vader's server. |
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| Author: | Father Cajone [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:11 am ] |
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Quit trying to justify or excuse Big12ozhog's actions Didaskalos. Oz knew the settings very well as he played the last bang which lasted about 7 weeks and one of the reasons that the corp I was in played was because it was a longer game instead of a short term game. The only one who can speak for oz is oz. If he was botting other players who were not playing then that speaks for the weakness of bot scripts in the game as well as displaying the strength of bots. The real victim in this case was Vader and his reputation as a gameop. He was forced to make a decision that he should have not have been forced to make as no matter which decision he made it was bound to offend someone and as I understand it he did not make his decision lightly nor until he had discussed it at length with many others. If you wish to continue this please take it to the thread I started when I posted the screen cap showing what happened. |
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| Author: | Didaskalos [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:38 am ] |
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do you read posts before responding fc? maybe you missed the part where i said "i'm not gonna stand here and try to excuse for any reason his behavior - it was one of the dumbest moves i've ever seen." the bulk of my post was simply giving my perspective as to 'why' he did it. as a person who is very familiar with oz and his tendancies, I am qualified to speculate. you sound like a whiney little *****. he got banned from the server. i was the one who originally suggested it. what makes you think that i am in any way 'justifying' what he did? and no, thank you, i will respond to this thread. |
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| Author: | Slim Shady [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm ] |
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ill justify it.. he works for a beer company.. he probably brought work home with him. heh. i know its a serious subject and all, i just like taking this game a bit lighter than some. sorry. Slim |
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| Author: | Rick Mead (teamEIS) [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:28 pm ] |
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quote:Originally posted by Didaskalos shrug, i'll not dispute the fact that i am heavily biased for big12 - i've known him the entire time i've played tw and he is on my perma. i also know he is a one of the best players in the game and that he didn't photon SD with the idea that he'd get away with it (ie not get caught). i'm not gonna stand here and try to excuse for any reason his behavior - it was one of the dumbest moves i've ever seen. given the context of the game (this might bore you, so feel free to stop reading), I personally think oz photoned star dock's so he could stop playing the game. given the fact that the edits were so wacked (2.2M damage tholians that can land and have photons [gawd what was the author thinking]) and the competition was mobile, the game had the potential to go on for a long long long time. Also, i know oz was unhappy about his corpmates never being at keys and him having to remote or bot them. dw sitting on the pause prompt was most likely the straw that broke the proverbial camels back. i know oz will never concede a game that he is obviously winning, but to continue playing single-handedly was probably something he didn't relish. so he decided to end it the only way he could without conceding defeat. and that's my speculation for the evening. ya, it was wrong, stupid, etc. but oz doesn't normally pull this stuff. also, as a side note, he probably photoned star dock's by himself, with the help of a bot or a remote session. but i could be wrong. i was the one that told vader that he needed to ban oz. not because i dont like oz, but because it WAS a dumbass maneuver that needed to be properly addressed so as to not ruin the reputation of vader's server. just so i have this right... You think It's the OPs fault that he cheated because the edits were bad (in some people's opinion)? Or that it is somehow understandable because it was going to be a long drawn out game or that he would be short handed? Are you saying that OZ isn't capable of reading edits and determining what type of game it will be, or knowing the commitment of his teammates? Everything you speculated only makes it worse that he did what he did. You also say that he doesn't normally pull this stuff, meaning that he only does it sometimes? You speculate that he probably used a bot or remote session to pull this off, do you come to this conclusion because it's normal for him to use dupes in games as well and login unauthorized use of someone else's account? Or perhaps you are going to say that he didn't use a dupe because the team are allowed to control other people accounts so everyone on the team is equally guilty. Either way he is a relatively new player to Trade Wars if I am correct, and this exploit is very newly public so given on the average of time he has been playing and the amount of time since he knew of the exploit to the time it took him to use it I would say, in my opinion, this is exactly the type of player he is. I said this in another post and i will say it again here, I wouldn't play with or against this type of player and I certainly wouldn't want them or anyone else who condones them on my server. By defending this guy or worse continuing to play with this guy you are not only putting your stamp of approval on cheating, but bring into question your own ethical play or lack there of, and the more I read your posts the more this is becoming clear. |
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| Author: | Didaskalos [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:39 pm ] |
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let me make this a little clearer so that people stop thinking that i am in some way justifying his actions. A) oz, whether you have heard of him or not, is a top caliber player. B) the paragraph speculating as to the reasoning was just that - speculation. Much like historians speculate as to why certain historical figures acted the way they did, I am speculating why oz did what he did. Historians do not justify what Hitler did by speculating about his motivation; by the same token, my speculation does not in any way justify oz's behavior. I thought that my repeated statements something to the effect that it was stupid, dumbass, etc and that i suggested he be banned would tip people off that i disapproved of the action. Oz is my friend; I'll not jump on the bandwagon and start bashing him just because it seems to be the popular thing to do. I can disapprove of the activity, approve of the discipline, and still count the person as a friend. i do not think you are in a position to insinuate that i am a bug user or a cheater just because oz is my friend. you have never played against me. i have not used bugs; i find and report them. I don't tell newbies how to break the rules. |
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| Author: | LOWKEY [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:44 pm ] |
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I liked the unedited version better was funnier ending to it. LokI is powering up weapons systems! |
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| Author: | Rick Mead (teamEIS) [ Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:08 pm ] |
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quote:Originally posted by Didaskalos let me make this a little clearer so that people stop thinking that i am in some way justifying his actions. quote: A) oz, whether you have heard of him or not, is a top caliber player. You can't be a top caliber player and a cheat at the same time, you can only be a cheat that has skill quote: B) the paragraph speculating as to the reasoning was just that - speculation. Much like historians speculate as to why certain historical figures acted the way they did, I am speculating why oz did what he did. Historians do not justify what Hitler did by speculating about his motivation; by the same token, my speculation does not in any way justify oz's behavior. I thought that my repeated statements something to the effect that it was stupid, dumbass, etc and that i suggested he be banned would tip people off that i disapproved of the action. Oz is my friend; I'll not jump on the bandwagon and start bashing him just because it seems to be the popular thing to do. I can disapprove of the activity, approve of the discipline, and still count the person as a friend. and if you, gypsy, think that it is your place to insinuate that I am a cheater or a bug user just because I am friends with oz, than quite frankly, you can go to hell. I will use the unedited version, you didn't have to edit it, you are welcome to express your opinion. speculation is normally arrived at by prior knowledge of or actual knowledge of an event be it through research, participation or hear-say. Speculation is attempting to draw a likely conclusion based on the facts given. I did not say that your speculations were justifications for OZ's actions I was pointing out that the excuses you had made for him made it actually worse. But you are defending him by acting as a character witness saying "he doesn't normally pull this", that's not speculation that's a statement, an opinion and a defense. I'm not bashing him because it's the popular thing to do, I am bashing him because it's the right thing to do. People can do whatever they like but there is no second chance from this, because its not a simple mistake, it was deliberate and premeditated. Finally let me put into exact words, I never said i would insinuate that you were a cheater or bug user if you remained friends with him, i said if you continued to play with him after you know he is a cheat then you would be considered same as he is, you are familiar with the term guilty by association. Its simple any team he is on in the future would be suspect, because no honorable players i have ever known would play with a known cheat. |
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| Author: | Slim Shady [ Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:02 am ] |
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well, i am not condoning anything. i will simply state facts. many people, many good players, have done stupid things in their past. at the time, they are blacklisted/ripped on etc.. all it takes is time. redemption comes to all. i take this from grazhoppa's bio on http://www.twsyndicate.com Story: Former Duper, reformed by Xide im sure his duping was premediated and we all know duping is the oldest of all wrongs. he was reformed. i think there would be very few players who wouldnt want grazhoppa on their team. and in time, who knows, it may be the same, but, it WILL take time. maybe a break, i dunno, it will suck for those involved, but time cures all ailments. of course people must learn from their mistakes, but we must have faith. in one year i will reopen this post to see where we are at. until that day... Slim |
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| Author: | PHX [ Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:05 am ] |
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Gee...this is making me see what an Butt I was on Entropy's server with doog and crew. |
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| Author: | River Rat [ Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:27 am ] |
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quote:Originally posted by Didaskalos shrug, i'll not dispute the fact that i am heavily biased for big12 - i've known him the entire time i've played tw and he is on my perma. i also know he is a one of the best players in the game and that he didn't photon SD with the idea that he'd get away with it (ie not get caught). i'm not gonna stand here and try to excuse for any reason his behavior - it was one of the dumbest moves i've ever seen. given the context of the game (this might bore you, so feel free to stop reading), I personally think oz photoned stardock so he could stop playing the game. given the fact that the edits were so wacked (2.2M damage tholians that can land and have photons [gawd what was the author thinking]) and the competition was mobile, the game had the potential to go on for a long long long time. Also, i know oz was unhappy about his corpmates never being at keys and him having to remote or bot them. dw sitting on the pause prompt was most likely the straw that broke the proverbial camels back. I know oz will never concede a game that he is obviously winning, but to continue playing single-handedly was probably something he didn't relish. so he decided to end it the only way he could without conceding defeat. and that's my speculation for the evening. Well to me that is a very lame excuse. Oz had played in the game before this one with same edits and he knew what they were. I for one enjoyed that game a lot as we had 4 good corps playing in it last bang. I was looking forward to this game more than i had any other game in a long time and to have it end like that was very disappointing. Maybe Oz was bored or tired of it but he ruinedit for the rest of us and that is very selfish and I will not play in a game where he is playing for a long time. I am also getting tired of comments on what you thought he was doing or this or that. Tell him to defend himself. I haven't even heard a single apology to anyone. River Rat.. |
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