I am working on a modern game that's a lot like Trade Wars, except with 3d interface, real space physics and all that happy stuff. Yes, you'll be able to colonize, attack, conquer, and destroy planets. I did a bit of research to find out where the "Trade Wars" name had gone, and after that I sat on the information for a while. Now I look into it, and Real Interactive (the supposed current holder of the Trade Wars name) seems to be no longer in business. Now I go to tradewars.com and find their web page advertising their Exarch Online game, which apparently never hit stores. I tried calling them on the phone over the weekend and I got their answering machine. I didn't leave a message, I figured I'd just call them while they were there. Now I try calling them and I get a sexy voice telling me that the line has been disconnected or no longer in service.

I tried sending them an email to the addresses listed in their home page, and so far have not gotten any form of response, not even an automatic "we got your email, and are ignoring it" message.

Now I am wondering whom I may contact to get this intellectual property. I am not going to assume that its up for grabs, the moment I do that I imagine I'll get sued.

If anybody knows how to contact Realm Interactive by a means other than what I have tried, please do tell.

I may be totally misundersanding the whole situation, but doesn't EIS own Trade Wars?

EIS owns the current text adventure "Trade Wars" but has sold the name to Realm Interactive for Realm's "Trade Wars:Dark Millenium" which was basically gutted and reshaped by their publisher, NCsoft. NCsoft had Realm change the game so much that it wasn't recognizable anymore. Also changed the name to "Exarch Online". Check out their page at http://www.tradewars.com

You should probably e-mail John... jpritch@eisonline.com

Sounds like Realm Interactive is becoming a typical Dotcom company. Great product idea, but they don't have a good business plan.

It must look something like this:

Step 1: Create 3D Tradewars/Everquest clone.

Step 2: ?

Step 3: Profit

I think the Underpants Gnomes might be trying to buy them out.

Most likely in the case like this, the IP has been sold to a holding company or corporate undertaker. I'll bet some accountant has it on their desk and does not know what to do with it. I base this on the fact that their phone is disconnected, email goes to a black hole, and there is no way to contact someone from the company to get an answer.

WHOIS information for tradewars.com:

[whois.dotster.com]

The data contained in the WHOIS database, while
believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is",
with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This
information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you
in obtaining information about domain name registration records.
Any use of this data for any other purpose, including, but not
limited to, allowing or making possible dissemination or
collection of this data in part or in its entirety for any
purpose, such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and
solicitations, is expressly forbidden without the prior written
permission of this company. By submitting an inquiry, you agree
to these terms of usage and limitations of warranty.
Please limit your queries to 10 per minute and one connection.

Registrant:
NCsoft Corporation
6801 N. Capital of Texas Hwy.
Bldg. 1, Ste. 102
Austin, TX 78731
US

Registrar: DOTSTER
Domain Name: TRADEWARS.COM
Created on: 17-SEP-99
Expires on: 17-SEP-04
Last Updated on: 12-NOV-03

Administrative Contact:
Graf, Christopher web@ncaustin.com
NCsoft Corp.
6801 N Capital of Texas Hwy
Bldg. 1, Ste. 102
Austin, TX 78730
US
512-498-4000

Technical Contact:

,
cgraf@austin.rr.com
Realm Interactive, LLC
931 East Southern Ave, Suite 206
Mesa, AZ 85204
US
480-545-1663


Domain servers in listed order:
DNS1.NCAUSTIN.COM
DNS2.NCAUSTIN.COM

End of Whois Information

Ah, I see NCsoft holds the title now. Heh. I have made sure to study the game business before trying to even set a big toe into it... Apparently the owners of Realm were not so lucky, and got bit because of it. This is probably more of what happened to them....


1) Make a modern Trade Wars clone, with a little 3rd person stuff.
2) Sell to publisher.
3) Publisher likes it, but would like to make a few changes... First change: the entire game.
4) lose gas because the entire heart and soul has been ripped right out of the game.
5) Project is cancelled.
6) Realm goes belly up because this game was their big break.

There you have what I think has happened to them. Their mistake was that they prolly signed a contract without picking thru it entirely. They probably also sold their game before they really had anything, in such a case, the publisher usually can run off with just about everything... even sole rights to their source code. I understand that such things happen, but they definitely don't happen when you read the contract and go over it with a lawyer in detail. I have also looked into NCsoft, and they seem to be a company more interested in releasing their own internal works, rather than have to pay royalties. I only hope they didn't do this to Realm so they may be able to run off with the intellectual rights to Trade Wars.

If this was an action by NCsoft to try to produce a real game, then they really bit the bullet on this one. First mistake, you don't buy an idea from somebody, and then tell them to burn it down. They didn't want to make Exarch, they didn't sell Exarch. They wanted to make Trade Wars.

NCsoft is a trademark of NCsoft Corp and Lineage is a trademark of NC Interactive. Exarch, Realm Interactive, LLC, Trade Wars: Dark Millennium and Trade Wars are trademarks of Realm. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

I copied that off the bottom of the http://www.tradewars.com http://www.exarchonline.com web pages. It seems NCsoft doesn't much care about the name "Trade Wars" ... I question their sanity.

It all depends on the contract they had with NCsoft. Just like the Novell and SCO deal, there was a change of IP but not the patents and copyright. SCO got the Unix source code, but not everything else that went with it. Novell supposidly held onto the patents and copyrights. Then if SCO sues IBM over IBM using Unix source code in Linux, it could go on for years to find out exactly what SCO owns and if they even have a right to sue. They may have bought the right to use the Unix source code, but not actually own it. If that is the case then it is up to Novell to sue IBM, being the correct owner, should Novell be interested in filing a lawsuit.

So you found who owns the domain name, this does not automatically mean that NCSoft owns the rights to Tradewars. They may have just bought out the domain name as Realm needed to raise some capital to pay off bills.

Actually the ownership of Tradewars is one that I would debate over. First version I can recall was written by Chris Sherrick (spelling?) and converted. Then the Turbo Pascal verson was created or based on the BASIC source. This is what TW2001 and TW2002 were based on IIRC. So maybe JP can answer this, did he or the Martins buy the rights for Tradewars from Chris Sherrick? If so, then the rights have been transfered more times than we thought. If he did not, then it is not Tradewars he owned, but TW2001/TW2002 a different property based on Tradewars. If this is legal, then someone else can make their own version of Tradewars as long as it does not use the same exact source code or IP as TW2001/TW2002 or the original Tradewars. Case in point the Black Nova TW clone. I would reconmend that the game be written from scratch and not based on any other existing Tradewars code.

You would need a lawyer to research the patents and copyrights for the Tradewars game and see who owns them. If ownership changed hands, the Federal Government will have a record of it. Then you contact the person or organization that owns the patents and copyrights for Tradewars and see if you can license them.

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar

It all depends on the contract they had with NCsoft. Just like the Novell and SCO deal, there was a change of IP but not the patents and copyright. SCO got the Unix source code, but not everything else that went with it. Novell supposidly held onto the patents and copyrights. Then if SCO sues IBM over IBM using Unix source code in Linux, it could go on for years to find out exactly what SCO owns and if they even have a right to sue. They may have bought the right to use the Unix source code, but not actually own it. If that is the case then it is up to Novell to sue IBM, being the correct owner, should Novell be interested in filing a lawsuit.

So you found who owns the domain name, this does not automatically mean that NCSoft owns the rights to Tradewars. They may have just bought out the domain name as Realm needed to raise some capital to pay off bills.

Actually the ownership of Tradewars is one that I would debate over. First version I can recall was written by Chris Sherrick (spelling?) and converted. Then the Turbo Pascal verson was created or based on the BASIC source. This is what TW2001 and TW2002 were based on IIRC. So maybe JP can answer this, did he or the Martins buy the rights for Tradewars from Chris Sherrick? If so, then the rights have been transfered more times than we thought. If he did not, then it is not Tradewars he owned, but TW2001/TW2002 a different property based on Tradewars. If this is legal, then someone else can make their own version of Tradewars as long as it does not use the same exact source code or IP as TW2001/TW2002 or the original Tradewars. Case in point the Black Nova TW clone. I would reconmend that the game be written from scratch and not based on any other existing Tradewars code.

You would need a lawyer to research the patents and copyrights for the Tradewars game and see who owns them. If ownership changed hands, the Federal Government will have a record of it. Then you contact the person or organization that owns the patents and copyrights for Tradewars and see if you can license them.



1st of all copyrights and patents are 2 entirely different thing... but no need to go into the differences here. For purpose of this discussion and to quash any misleading information or rumors what is important is the Tradmark.

Chris Sherrick does have a copyright for the title Trade Wars vol. II and EIS has a copyright for Trade Wars Epoch of Breadon, there are others that have copyrights with some form of Trade Wars or another, but what's important here is that EIS owns the Trade Mark for Trade Wars, so any thing with that in the title would be infringement. Now while anyone is welcome to create their own space trading game, I would be very careful about making the similarity to the game play of Trade Wars to similar, and I certainly wouldn't put Trade Wars anywhere in the name unless you get explicit permission from EIS. While in the past many clones have come and gone without much fan fare trying to profit in the future from the game play or name of Trade Wars may wind you up in court facing substantial financial damages.

As far as the domain name tradewars.com, it will soon be in the hands of the Trademark holder, as I understand it the agreement has already been reached.

I find it amazing that in today's day in age that people don't know how to, or don't take the time to research a subject online (with say google) before posting opinions, especially on a web based forum.

For those of you who are interested you can find copyright information here:
telnet://locis.loc.gov/

And Trademark information here:
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=t ... 2ugce5.1.1

And patent information here:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html

Well, for one, the basis of the game is much farther than the text version... in fact, about the similarities end with the idea that one trades between ports, each port orbits a star in some star system. Aside from that, I don't have any other similarities. The game is far from a text based adventure. It's a 3D strategy with a much larger scope than current 3d space strategies. I have tried to contact jpritch@eisonline.com but so far haven't seen any response.

Also, I am here not because I want to do something sneaky or underhanded, I am here because I want to accomplish this in an above board, legal manner. If I were trying to be sneaky about it, I would be more than a fool to be asking on the EIS forums.

Now, as to permissions to use that name, I know I need permission. I am now working on obtaining permission the best way I know how, by obtaining permission from the party who is most qualified to give it. I was operating on the understanding that Realm had that position, but now that they have gone belly up, I am returning to EIS to find out what is going on.

I did research "Trade Wars" on Google, but didn't come up with much. I certainly didn't arrive at the trademark database. Thank you for showing me that trademark database... It makes me wonder however, is that a complete database?


Update: I just got an email from John, and am discussing the game.

quote:Originally posted by 147-2

Well, for one, the basis of the game is much farther than the text version... in fact, about the similarities end with the idea that one trades between ports, each port orbits a star in some star system. Aside from that, I don't have any other similarities. The game is far from a text based adventure. It's a 3D strategy with a much larger scope than current 3d space strategies. I have tried to contact jpritch@eisonline.com but so far haven't seen any response.

Also, I am here not because I want to do something sneaky or underhanded, I am here because I want to accomplish this in an above board, legal manner. If I were trying to be sneaky about it, I would be more than a fool to be asking on the EIS forums.

Now, as to permissions to use that name, I know I need permission. I am now working on obtaining permission the best way I know how, by obtaining permission from the party who is most qualified to give it. I was operating on the understanding that Realm had that position, but now that they have gone belly up, I am returning to EIS to find out what is going on.

I did research "Trade Wars" on Google, but didn't come up with much. I certainly didn't arrive at the trademark database. Thank you for showing me that trademark database... It makes me wonder however, is that a complete database?


Update: I just got an email from John, and am discussing the game.



My reply was not specifically directed at you, or about anything in particular you said, it was more general comments. I wish you luck in your undertaking, and always look forward to checking out new games.

As far as the spectrum of trademarks in that search, I can't give you a definitive answer, as its not my area of expertise, but I would gather from reading the information available there that the vast majority of Trademarks, both active and abandoned are listed.

quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (teamEIS)

1st of all copyrights and patents are 2 entirely different thing... but no need to go into the differences here. For purpose of this discussion and to quash any misleading information or rumors what is important is the Tradmark.

Chris Sherrick does have a copyright for the title Trade Wars vol. II and EIS has a copyright for Trade Wars Epoch of Breadon, there are others that have copyrights with some form of Trade Wars or another, but what's important here is that EIS owns the Trade Mark for Trade Wars, so any thing with that in the title would be infringement. Now while anyone is welcome to create their own space trading game, I would be very careful about making the similarity to the game play of Trade Wars to similar, and I certainly wouldn't put Trade Wars anywhere in the name unless you get explicit permission from EIS. While in the past many clones have come and gone without much fan fare trying to profit in the future from the game play or name of Trade Wars may wind you up in court facing substantial financial damages.

As far as the domain name tradewars.com, it will soon be in the hands of the Trademark holder, as I understand it the agreement has already been reached.

I find it amazing that in today's day in age that people don't know how to, or don't take the time to research a subject online (with say google) before posting opinions, especially on a web based forum.

For those of you who are interested you can find copyright information here:
telnet://locis.loc.gov/

And Trademark information here:
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=t ... 2ugce5.1.1

And patent information here:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html



Doing a Google search as I did, turned up a lot of Tradewars fan sites and nothing to do with information I was searching for.

Turns out I was searching on the wrong areas of the Internet. Thanks for providing links to the right areas to do a search on. I was trying to find those sites, but there is so much misleading information and unrelated web sites on Goggle that it is a nightmare to find what I want to find. So many companies want to file a copyright or patent or trademark for me and get into Google searches on those terms. I will bookmark those sites for future use. Thanks again.

Fah, that Telnet system is clumbsy and does not echo back the choices entered and the "show commands" help is currently unavailable. I wish they had a web interface for that, would be a lot easier. I am using WinXP Telnet, maybe that is part of the problem?

I just found that US Copyrights has a web page at:
http://www.copyright.gov/

Points to the Telnet LOCIS system. Has online documenation.

"b Tradewars" seems to find copyrights simular to the name, but not exactly what I wanted. It says to hit Enter for the next page, but nothing seems to happen when I hit Enter. Tradeways, Tradeview, Tradeweb, Tradeware, but no Tradewars.

Trademark search says the system is too busy. Bah! The link that was given here does not work because it says the session has expired. I'll take your word for it even if I cannot find it due to technical problems at the Trademark web site.

Patent search turned up nothing. Tried "Tradewars" in the first field, all fields. Possibly someone at the government has not entered the information into the searchable database for patents yet, or I am using the wrong term? Maybe "Trade Wars" or "Trade" in field1 and "Wars" in field 2? Would be nice if the advanced patent search had a company name to search by.

This is not directed at you, just that the information technology in general makes it hard to do searches, esp when Government systems cannot handle the workload or are not up to modern standards or some clerk has not entered the information yet. Google is so full of illrelevent web hits that it is very hard to find what one wants to find. I often hit Spammers web sites, sites wanting to sell something, fan sites, etc. Hardly ever finding what I want. Of course I work or rather used to work in Information Technology and the programs I wrote were of a much better quality and easier to use.

Sorry for my rant Rick. I did not mean to get off topic. I am from the Show Me State and I like to find things out for myself. I did a search on patents my former employer filed on work I did in 2000 and 2001 and it was not in the database either. I guess patents have to be reviewed before they get put into the database and it might take years to do so. The same I suspect for copyrights. Thanks again for the links. Sorry I had trouble using some of those searches and vented a bit on them. It is, after all the smack talk forum.