(Yes, an official Turns vs. Unlimited thread! I figured since 90% of the threads on the entirety of these forums seems to degenerate into this, we may as well have a thread to point everyone to when it comes up.)

This is a reply to a reply from Camaro81 in another thread. Moved my reply here in an effort to avoid turning a good turn-game strategy thread into a five billionth debate of turns vs. unlimited. We need *some* readable threads around here.

quote:
"since in an unlimited no strategy matters, just good fast scripts"

actually, a month ago i would have agreed with you

but join the unlimited on campus party tommorrow night and repeat that same statement saturday night.....


The fact that BC/Loki/SS's better, faster attack scripts blew you to hell and back backs up my statement rather than countering it.

At any rate, I've tried unlim, and I didn't enjoy it. Of course, I don't even enjoy turns games with no ship delays (IMHO, ship delays should be part of the delicate balance of ship edits), so the kind of TW game I look for is just completely different from most.

I might be interested in an unlim with double ship delays played out as a "bot war" of sorts, since the ship delays would then somewhat balance the difference between players' connection/script speeds, but an unlim with no ship delays is just a test of who can make a billion credits instead of half a billion in the first 10 hours.

Don't start claiming as some have that amount of resources becomes irrelevant once you have that many. If it weren't about who has the most resources, unlim game sysops would just start everyone in a ship with 400k fighters, 8:1 odds, edit all ships to zero gentorps, and put a lvl 0 citadel next to Terra with a ten million free fighters (replenished constantly) to be picked up by anyone at will. It'd end the game in one hour instead of 25, and supposedly amount to the same exact game.

Since this *isn't* how the game is set up, it's admitted right there that making more credits (and therefore having faster, better scripts) is the important part of an unlim. Not to mention how much a good instant capture script is necessary in a game with no ship delays. Someone with a T3 connection can attack with one fighter at a time ten times and cap someone before the target's mere cable modem even sees the first weapon powerup. But no, unlimiteds aren't all about connection speeds and scripts, no way. Riiight. Say that one a dozen times and you'll be so full of BS your eyes will turn brown ;>

And with that, I'll fall back on Bone Collector's common BS nonargument (you know, "Go sell some organics"), just in the other direction.

(Impression of a turns version of BC:) "Stay on the thread for unlimited players. You dont belong on the same thread with the likes of Kemper and myself. You are now officially promoted to the NUMBER ONE IDIOT I KNOW. Shutup and stick to something you know about. Go and hunt some players who have half as many resources as you then brag as if it wasn't done completely by your superior scripts because you want none of this."

Hehe, sorry, but I couldn't resist. He's so easy to mock ;> Don't take the idiot stuff personally, that's an exact quote from a BC post in one of those unlim threads, modified to work the other direction.

quote:
Not to mention how much a good instant capture script is necessary in a game with no ship delays. Someone with a T3 connection can attack with one fighter at a time ten times and cap someone before the target's mere cable modem even sees the first weapon powerup.


Even in a "no delay" game, there are delays, it is just even across the board for all ships at 250ms. That being the case, you can only attack 4 times in a second, no matter what your connection is.

quote:
quote:
Not to mention how much a good instant capture script is necessary in a game with no ship delays. Someone with a T3 connection can attack with one fighter at a time ten times and cap someone before the target's mere cable modem even sees the first weapon powerup.


Even in a "no delay" game, there are delays, it is just even across the board for all ships at 250ms. That being the case, you can only attack 4 times in a second, no matter what your connection is.





Packet size says you can attack more then 4 times, 250ms granted.., however, if you are using double shot macros you can get in at least 8 attacks..., and TWX sends bigger packets then zoc for that matter, you might have BIG SHIPS that can run a large barrage of attacks in 1 250ms packet....say 6 times 4 packets, thats 24 times.


as for PURE UNLIMITEDS..They suck for 1 reason, photons have no effect on traders, other then sending ship mail...

So I suggest that 65k turns be used instead of Unlimiteds
Even less turns.

I dont think there needs to be any extra threads.
If you cant find a place to post on this LARGE FORUM you missing pieces any way....


Res Judicata

Whats Really Going On!!!

quote:
as for PURE UNLIMITEDS..They suck for 1 reason, photons have no effect on traders, other then sending ship mail...


I was under the impression from something I read that photons in an unlimited will hold a target in place for one minute per second of photon activity. So if an unlim has 20 second photon waves, when a player is photoned, they will be unable to move for 20 MINUTES. That's pretty severe punishment (certainly more than "just sending ship mail") for an unlimited... and of course with them held like that they're as good as #SD#, so held until the next midnight ;> seems like a solid effect to me...

xen, join that game and tell me other wise

if you dont get killed in the first 10 minutes you need some kinda strategy to either kill them, or keep yourself from getting killed

once the no attack rule is over, all cashing is finished and its balls to the wall

no one got me with a script, BC killed me twice that game and not by a script, his script wouldn't get me, he just cought me and macro'd my Butt

our corps strategy could have made that game last longer if i'da stuck to it and setup the planets without a strategy at all we woudln't have lasted more than a day

Chris Rose
http://www.geocities.com/camaro81rk

No, Camaro, he cant join that game. It is for people that know how to kill while other people are ONLINE.

Bones take on turns follows:

"Man, this is GREAT! I get to colo all day long and to stay alive all i have to do is stay fedsafe, not hit a fig, and not ever invade someone while they online. Boy, I can sit at keys for hours on end and TALK to other twarriors. I have a monstrous 800 turns at 2 turns per warp, so that means i can move 400 times in a day. Man, this is Heaven. Even better is the fact that I will get to work really hard for at least a week before i even have enough figs to begin to kill other people. Then, if i make a mistake and log off, all my stuff will be taken by some little PUNK who is scared to invade me while I am online."

That is about how I sum up turns games. Let me give you an example. I play in a 20000 turns game right now with some of the best players in the game. For over a week, the only people who even got powered up on were absolute NEWBs who didnt know any better than to hit a fig. People simply stayed fedsafe and used their game time to chat with one another. That is my idea of fun, let me tell you. Personally, I work too hard doing my actual job to have the time to waste building resources only to have them taken the first time my cable modem fails and knocks me offline. I know what you are gonna say..."If you have proper STRATEGY then they cant take your stuff" WRONG! If that were the case there would have been no alignment script used by XIDE in the USO or the time limit wouldnt have ever been an issue to begin with. Turns are boring. Plain and simple. They require a little more planning than unlimiteds i admit. They are even more difficult to play. However, if you enjoy ONLINE killing then unlimiteds are the way to go. On our games, we dont sit in our sector and shoot the breeze. We hunt and when we find people we kill or get killed. The best five people in TW could show up and corp together and that would still be our strategy because it is what makes the game fun and gives me a sense of accomplishment that killing and invading while someone is offline will never do.

Finally, since when did a TURNS game not come down to who has the most resources or the fastest scripts? It always comes down to who has the most stuff. If in a turns game, i outfig you 3-1 you cant completely invade me. Period. Same in an unlimited. BUT, the difference is that in an unlimited i am gonna be on the move trying to better my position while in a turns game i would spend 50 minutes an hour sitting and chatting with people like you. So at least most people in an unlim are doing something with their time. Also, in the particular unlimited that camaro is referring to, there is no excuse for people like you to die. You should be able to sit in your sector and defend it all day long. Fast cit times and good fig production should give you plenty of ammunition to defend yourself if you are any good.

Bone Collector

quote:
Bones take on turns follows:

"Man, this is GREAT! I get to colo all day long and to stay alive all i have to do is stay fedsafe, not hit a fig, and not ever invade someone while they online. Boy, I can sit at keys for hours on end and TALK to other twarriors. I have a monstrous 800 turns at 2 turns per warp, so that means i can move 400 times in a day. Man, this is Heaven. Even better is the fact that I will get to work really hard for at least a week before i even have enough figs to begin to kill other people. Then, if i make a mistake and log off, all my stuff will be taken by some little PUNK who is scared to invade me while I am online."


Okay, and my take on unlimiteds:
"Sweet! Since I have a fractional T3 connection, I'll have a billion credits when everyone else only has 100M at best! Oh, wait, there it is, game's already over, I won! Woo hoo! Easy win, quick win! Beats actually having to try or use my brain, especially because I don't have a brain anyway!"

quote:
That is about how I sum up turns games. Let me give you an example. I play in a 20000 turns game right now with some of the



I cut out the rest of that entire paragraph because 20k turns == unlimited. I'm talking 500 turns or less. 500-3000 turns has SOME strategy, but less and less as you go up the scale, and over 3000 may as well be unlim for all the "strategy" you need.

quote:
Finally, since when did a TURNS game not come down to who has the most resources or the fastest scripts? It always comes down to who has the most stuff. If in a turns game, i outfig you 3-1 you cant completely invade me. Period.


Exactly, turns games come down to who has the most resources, but who has the most resources is based on WHO USES THEIR TURNS MOST EFFECTIVELY, not WHO HAS THE BEST CONNECTION AND THEREFORE IS ABLE TO USE THEIR TIME MOST EFFECTIVELY. Time effectivenes is connection and script speed. Period. Turn effectiveness is *neurons between your ears*. With a dearth of those, I can see your desire to play where your connection speed makes up for it.

quote:
Same in an unlimited. BUT, the difference is that in an unlimited i am gonna be on the move trying to better my position while in a turns game i would spend 50 minutes an hour sitting and chatting with people like you.


Yep, on the move, bettering your position, at a faster rate than anyone else not because you're a better player but because you have better scripts. Try bettering your position when you are limited to doing the same number of independant actions as everyone else in the game, instead of being able to do four times as much because of four times the speed.

quote:
So at least most people in an unlim are doing something with their time. Also, in the particular unlimited that camaro is referring to, there is no excuse for people like you to die. You should be able to sit in your sector and defend it all day long. Fast cit times and good fig production should give you plenty of ammunition to defend yourself if you are any good.


Defending is suicide with ships edited >3:1 odds. Planetary figs are like tissue paper to those rediculously overedited ships on Campus Party.

Basically, speed > strategy in an unlimited. I can have fifty times better strategy than you, but if you *always* hit buttons twice as fast as I do, you win. You hit your macro before I can hit mine and all my strategy means nothing. Hitting a macro quickly isn't strategy, it's action. Action is fine, it's just not what I'm looking for when I play a turn-based text game. If I want action, I play Counterstrike, or Medal of Honor, or hell, if I want TEXT action, I go play Galactic Empire, a game meant to be realtime, not turn based.

The TradeWars engine wasn't designed for unlimited; it was just added to appease the few who wanted the option. It doesn't make for a particularly good game because the game design isn't meant for it. If you want an adreneline rush, find me a good game of Galactic Empire and we'll see who *really* owns text *realtime* games.

quote:
Packet size says you can attack more then 4 times, 250ms granted.., however, if you are using double shot macros you can get in at least 8 attacks..., and TWX sends bigger packets then zoc for that matter, you might have BIG SHIPS that can run a large barrage of attacks in 1 250ms packet....say 6 times 4 packets, thats 24 times.



number of packets sent, packet size, all have nothing to do with it. The games limits you to 1 attack (successful) every 250 ms. Any more you send are just buffered.

quote:
No, Camaro, he cant join that game. It is for people that know how to kill while other people are ONLINE.

Bones take on turns follows:

"Man, this is GREAT! I get to colo all day long and to stay alive all i have to do is stay fedsafe, not hit a fig, and not ever invade someone while they online. Boy, I can sit at keys for hours on end and TALK to other twarriors. I have a monstrous 800 turns at 2 turns per warp, so that means i can move 400 times in a day. Man, this is Heaven. Even better is the fact that I will get to work really hard for at least a week before i even have enough figs to begin to kill other people. Then, if i make a mistake and log off, all my stuff will be taken by some little PUNK who is scared to invade me while I am online."



I often invade people when they are online. In fact, most good players will invade when others are online, they will hit figs, etc. Also, if you are playing right, you will be hunting and killing within a day. I have played many games with less than 1000 turns that are over in a week.

quote:
quote:
Packet size says you can attack more then 4 times, 250ms granted.., however, if you are using double shot macros you can get in at least 8 attacks..., and TWX sends bigger packets then zoc for that matter, you might have BIG SHIPS that can run a large barrage of attacks in 1 250ms packet....say 6 times 4 packets, thats 24 times.



number of packets sent, packet size, all have nothing to do with it. The games limits you to 1 attack (successful) every 250 ms. Any more you send are just buffered.






Thanks for the correction.

Res Judicata

Whats Really Going On!!!

First off, let me clear something up. Until late february of this year i played on dialup and was still winning unilmiteds then. Please dont confuse connection speed with the ability to think fast in a situation. Even now, my speed is nowhere near as great as most peoples. I have a basic cable connection that doesnt ever stay connected for more than a few hours at a time. My computer also is ancient...533 pentium, 64 mb ram, etc. My scripts are only faster because I have altered them to make them that way. I have no computer background and am more or less SELF TAUGHT. In other words if i can do it, ANYONE can. Most of the elite players i have played wiht have MUCH faster connection speed and almost all of them cash faster than i do. So, again, stop whining about speed and scripts. Has nothing to do with why you suck at killing peeps. Now, that all being said, if you had a 100 million creds and i killed you in ship to ship combat, you suck anyway. BUT, i would never let you get 100 million creds in a game without a no attack. Either you would kill me or i would kill you. That is where the turns players have gripes about unlimiteds. You guys dont like the fact that building takes a back seat to killing.

Now, the 20000 turns thing, you should have read a little more closely. NOTHING like an unlimited. Nobody did anything but colo for days on end. BORING. In an unlimited i would have found everyone in the game in a week. Please read.

I am not even sure why i am responding to your idiocy about defending. If you cant keep me out of your sector when you have 4 million figs on a planet then you suck. Odds dont even matter in that situation. If you come in my sector whilel i have the figs to kill you, you WONT get my planet without taking a death in that game. The odds in that game are AWESOME. They play to the killers. Not the people like you that sit and chat. Of course you wouldnt like them because you cant kill.

Bone Collector

Hey Bone I think our current game had too many colos.
I would happy with 10mil max or 5 mil.
That crap is gone fast.

I dont do unlimiteds any more.
One reason. A bit long but bear with me.
First off I got to the point I could win any unlimited
game I played, for the most part this got old.
The main reason I won at will was that I could literally
sit in game and run scripts 24/7 and LIVE...
When some one has time like that, I did, there is no way in HELL
you gonna come in for 4 to 8 hours a day and beat that player.


SO I do not have the time it takes to WIN In games
where lunatics like RES can play all day hehehe.

I dont play TW nearly as much by a long shot.

Now if you want to play FAST GAMES that last less then 3 days then
pure unlimited may be the way to go.

Does any Unlimited players have SHIP DELAY on their servers???

Turns much better no matter what the amount.
And Ship delay thats REAL TW, screw connection speed we got
1/2 ship delay or 1/4 hehe or 1/3...Its all good.

Ship delay to some is so different they NEVER play games with it.


Maybe RR will bang next gangsters game with less colos...
VEG

I agree grabbing...colos for 3 days is lame.
2 days maybe...


Res Judicata


Res Judicata

Whats Really Going On!!!

quote:

Now, the 20000 turns thing, you should have read a little more closely. NOTHING like an unlimited. Nobody did anything but colo for days on end. BORING. In an unlimited i would have found everyone in the game in a week. Please read.



I'm curious, with 20k turns, why DIDN'T you find everyone in a day? There are only so many places someone can hide.

First reason...everyone in game was grabbing colos. Second reason is that it is 20000 sectors not 5000. Much easier to run ztm in 5000 than 20000. And, if anyone ran ztm, they missed out on colos which in that game wouldnt have been a good thing. Plus, Kemper, the way the corps are set up usually someone is online on the good corps at all times, so invasion would have been difficult at best with the types of players on and the fast fig production on planets. I like the edits, just a few too many turns and WAY too much time spent coloing. But in any game with more than 1000-1500 turns that i have played in, new players wont join if the colos are all gone. If it has a bunch of turns and is a blue game then you have to keep putting colos out or it comes down to who grabbed the most early.

Bone Collector

Heres something new.....Im NOT going to disagree with BC!

Turn games and Unlims ARE VERY DIFFERENT! Despite my constant nagging even I have come to realize this.

It requires TREMENDOUS skill to play unlims, skill that I can only DREAM of! But, that being said, it requires an equally large amout of skill to play turn games....its just a different skill. All it comes down to is PACE! You want a fast paced game to play on your weekend off....play an Unlim, you want to sit at your computer during your spare time and strategize for the long-term....play a turn game. EVERY-TIME, no matter HOW much talent I have brought on my corp, BC, LOKI and crew have outdone me. I GIVE THEM PROPS!! the fact that they kill lots and kill fast, ending the game extrememly fast anger's some people, but that doesn't mean they dont have talent. I may disagree with their morals...but it a shooting match, I want them on MY side.

L8ter
CF


*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!