quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector

Wow, and I only thought you were an idiot! Keys would be awesome, however, I am sure not too many people (even so called conservatives) know who he is. I would give anything for the first black pres to be someone with as much moral character as he has. Of course, he is not shouting "I hate the white man!" like jesse "adulterer" jackson or louis farakhan so he wouldnt have a chance. It is a sad day when people wont vote for someone like Keys but will vote for ted "I drowned a coworker" kennedy.


lol.... and I thought all you did was spout off bull**** just to spouting off.

You forgot the king of them all... Bill "I didn't inhale, I just suck" Clinton.

After reading this 4 page thread, I have come up with a comlete solution...

I should run for president... Maybe not this year, but you just watch!

wait a sec... I'm to young! [V] maybe in another 30-40 years!
Sorry guys, We got to live with these morons a bit longer!

quote:Originally posted by Dr-Doog

Iraq admitted to having WMDs in the early 90’s. It was up to them to get rid of them. The burden of proof was on Iraq to prove that they got rid of them NOT for us to prove that they still had them.

Iraq did have WMD's. We knew that because we sold them several tons of chemical munitions in the 80's when they were fighting Iran. As for burden of proof. After a unilateral invasion it is up to us to prove he had them when we invaded to find them and remove them.

Over all I would have to say we agree that we dis-agree on some points to include who we think will do a better job as president. On these points we will no doubt never agree. You will not convince me and I will not convince you or anyone else that has made up there mind already. However, I think we all agree that the military does a great job regardless of anything else. So we can say we agree on something. [:)]

I have really enjoyed discussing this with you all. It is always good to hear opposing points of view. As I have said many times in this thread it is what makes our country great! You all have a great week.

Thanks,
Brian

I would like to carry this off the TW Forums and into District 268, a forum I had created recently. I do not think it belongs here. Just my opinion. See my signature for the link to District 268.

quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector


You mean besides that either of them would love to see us cease to be a country? That isnt enough? The problem with libs is they lose credibility so fast because they care more about others than they do about the American people. For example, I am sure you remember seeing Kerry, et al, speak out harshly about how HORRIBLE the beheading was. The dems lined up en masse to attack the administration about the naked pyramid, yet they dont say much about something like the Berg incident. It is amazing to me how gullible some people in this country are.



I do agree that there are those in Iraq that are terrorists, and that need to be taken out. I do also agree that we need to take care of our own people as well. I also understand that not everyone in Iraq is a terrorist. We must be careful not to become as bad as terrorists as well.


quote:
LOL! This sums up my entire argument with people who are so caught up in wanting to belong to some movement that they will say or do anything. This memo shows that not only did al qaeda meet with sadaam, but that the meeting went so well it lasted a week longer than planned. Let me see, I bet they decided to play golf at 7 other palaces because the operative liked the first two courses so much. What do you think they were doing? They were talking about ways to kill YOU and ME. It doesnt take rocket science to see the m.o. of the liberal: Bad mouth Bush because he doesnt make everything he knows public and when that stuff Bush says turns out to be true, lie, lie, spin, lie, spin, and then get ALL dems to come out and publicly claim that even though evidence points to it being true it just ISNT TRUE. Wake up! How many times have you heard idiots like kerry and kennedy claim there is NO LINK between them? This document provides a link, yet how many prime time news programs reported it? Finally, refer to the following article for some other info. http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 8fmxyz.asp
I realize that you are a liberal and the only things you consider "facts" are those that paint Bush in a bad way. However, if you think for even a second that ANY reporter knows everything, you are silly. There is alot more evidence than either of us will ever know.


I am a moderate, not a liberal. You are speculating on what happened. Yes there is a possible link, cited by that memo. Remember that memo from Niger that talked about Iraq buying radioactive material? Care to speculate on that one?

True they have common goals, and true they may have communicated. However, read on...

quote:Now the more important question is: "Did Saddam have anything to do with the 911 attacks?"
quote:
No, the more important question is "Would Saddam have provided bin laden with a wmd in order to destroy America?"


Answer a question with another question and avoid the question. Brilliant move! Duck and dodge! Now another question, "Why didn't Saddam provide Bin Ladem with a WMD to attack America with on 9/11?" Clearly Saddam had WMD, and was communicating with Bin Laden. Perhaps you can produce another memo to explain that?

quote:Now despite the document, there is no evidence of a follow-up meeting, or any other meeting or communications since then.

quote:
Naive. You have no idea what evidence we have. THINK for just a second and then tell me how many democrat senators would have voted for the Iraqi war if there was "no evidence".


Just think for a second, who declares war? Congress does, not the senate. Now show me the records where Congress voted for war. That's right, they do not exist. This is not a war, but rather a military action. Amazing what little you know about how our country works.
Read the Constitution sometime and you'll see that only Congress has the power to declare war. I'll give you a hint: Article I, section 8.

quote:I must admit the memo is weak and only proves they wanted to talk, but no evidence shows that they did.

quote:
According to this logic there is never an actual meeting between two countries unless their actual leaders meet? Naive.


Since when is Bin Laden a country? I thought he was a terrorist who moved from country to country and hides in caves like a coward? I said talk between the two of them, not meet. They can talk through their own people, diplomats, etc. It sounds more to me of a get to know you meeting, which was not followed through.

quote:So I have these questions for you, and I noticed you did not answer my other questions, so maybe you won't answer these either?

quote:
Perhaps I will scroll back when i get a chance and find these questions you asked and answer them too.


Let me refresh your memory, it was on page 2 of this thread:

Since you are against open boarders, what do you think about Bush's idea to give illegal imigrants free work permits? Does it seem to be more of a band-aid fix than a solution to the growing problem?

While Heinz-Kerry contributes to questionable organizations, what about the Saudi Arabian princes contributing to Bush's campaign through dummy corporations, and also contributing to terrorist groups? How come we are not investigating Heinz-Kerry or the Princes as well?

Saudi Arabian terrorist connection:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/ ... ion.saudi/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59695,00.html

Do you support the loss of rights the average citizen suffers so the megacorps can earn more money? Like when "Fair Use" was taken out of the copyright laws, where was Bush when this happened, and when did he do to try to correct it?

You talk about Heinz-Kerry being concerned for the rights of prisioners, is this a crime? Do you support the torture and abuse of prisioners, and possibly kill them in captivity without a trial? Should we just take the Vlad Tepes method and impale them on Pikes just outside of the cities that have terrorist activity in them?

Make no mistake, I am against people who support terrorists, and against people who support the taking away of rights from people, and I do not want to see our country invaded by illegal immigrants who take away jobs and leech off the social programs that are already running out of money. I cannot see a logical reason why I should support Bush or Kerry in 2004.

quote:"Is Rumsfeld a liar then? Is there a link between Saddam and 911?"

quote:
An actual memo from saddam to bin laden? No, probably not. However, a link between the two, which i will remind you is what Bush claimed all along, yes I think that there is sufficient evidence to support that.


So Rumsfeld was a liar when he said there was no connection between Iraq and 911? That link again as you apparently did not read it:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... -911_x.htm


quote:"Is there any evidence to show that a meeting between Bin Laden and Saddam took place after that memo was written?"

quote:
Yes, plenty of evidence that their representatives met. If only Clinton had taken the offer from a "representative" of the Sudanese government to a "representative" of his government we might not be having this converstaion.


Which the Bush administration also knew about, and also did nothing about either. Or did the Clinton administration bury all the evidence before they left office?

quote:"Is the memo the only piece of evidence you have to show a link?"

quote:
Let me guess, it isnt sufficient? LMAO. You guys kill me. The memo proves a "link". I know it is tough for dems as they are the same people who think that oral sex isnt sex.


I'll ask again, is there any other evidence besides the memo? Even if the memo is enough evidence, there has to be more evidence out there somewhere. If so, where is it?

quote:"Was anyone from Iraq involved in the 911 attack?"

quote:
Who knows? However, since you guys put so much stock in the workings of the judicial system (see gay marriage and abortion) here is a link for you:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... ards_x.htm


Offtopic, and avoiding the question again. If there is a link between Iraq and 911, why wasn't anyone from Iraq involved in the attack? Why wasn't any WMD used and instead commercial planes were used?

quote:"Is Conservitive Media News any more or less slanted that Liberal Media News? What about Moderate Media News or Indpendant Media News from other countries?"


quote:
Fox news reports good and bad things about Bush. Of course everyone knows that many of the people on Fox are Republican. The difference is that the prime time networks that host shows like 60 minutes have people watching them that are convinced that those reporters have no agenda whatsoever. That is ludicrous as you can see by the types of programs they have had recently. Does anyone besides me find it weird that after many of these people are discredited those same news programs dont say a word about that? How many conservative authors has 60 minutes had on recently? How many conservatives did they have on during the Clinton years? How many of those people were given free reign to bash slick in order to sell more books? Most of the stories about politics on the big three news channels report with a very obvious liberal slant. When someone like Fox comes in and starts to criticize dems you guys throw a fit and claim they are being partisan when they are actually being truthful.


So how many liberals are allowed on conservative talk shows? How come conservative talk shows dominate the talk show market?

Fox news is more balanced, I agree. The O'Reilly Factor takes phone calls from all sorts of people.

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar
So how many liberals are allowed on conservative talk shows? How come conservative talk shows dominate the talk show market?

Fox news is more balanced, I agree. The O'Reilly Factor takes phone calls from all sorts of people.


Those are easy questions to answer. I spend a significant amount of time on the road listening to talk radio. I'm a huge fan on Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and my favorite would be one of Rush's sit ins when he is on vacation, Walter E. Williams. I have seen many libs on talk shows. I think the host would rather have a lib call them because they are more likely to make an Butt out of themself. Then it is easy to pick apart what the say and make the host look good. They use facts to support their positions where as libs use feelings.

quote:Originally posted by Dr-Doog

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar
So how many liberals are allowed on conservative talk shows? How come conservative talk shows dominate the talk show market?

Fox news is more balanced, I agree. The O'Reilly Factor takes phone calls from all sorts of people.


Those are easy questions to answer. I spend a significant amount of time on the road listening to talk radio. I'm a huge fan on Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and my favorite would be one of Rush's sit ins when he is on vacation, Walter E. Williams. I have seen many libs on talk shows. I think the host would rather have a lib call them because they are more likely to make an Butt out of themself. Then it is easy to pick apart what the say and make the host look good. They use facts to support their positions where as libs use feelings.


Facts, or rather perceptions would be the more correct word to use. I use facts too, and quote sources as previous posts of mine have done.

Amazing that they take the crank callers, I wonder how many of those calls are from informed people? I wonder how many of those calls are staged? [:P] A liberal could do the same with conservative callers, in theory.

I have seen posters like Bone Collector duck and dodge questions and change the subject really quick. It tells me they are not able to answer the questions or do not want to answer them so they do what they can to avoid them. That would lose them points in a debate.

Speaking of 911, I got an interesting email which I call the 911 Rap. Rather that spread it by Spam, I turned it into a web page at:
http://www.geocities.com/orion_blastar/ ... index.html

While we squable with each other, the Terrorists are still out there. We caught Saddam but not Bin Laden, at least not yet.

I'm going to begin my posting to this thread by commenting on the first page of postings. I will try to keep it to a minimum, but I just can't resist commenting on all of these things!

quote:Originally Posted By Bone Collector


His wife contributes to organizations that directly support policies that hinder our safety. Any questions?


My Response:
Wow, you know his wife? You've seen her checkbook? Heh!

quote:Originally Posted By Res Judicata


Miss me this administration is ALL CROOKED.

My Response:
They're Politicians, you don't honestly believe they are crooked do you? The man spent millions of dollars to get a job that pays 200,000 or so a year. You have a gift for stating the obvious

quote:Originally Posted By Typhoon:


but kerry is less likely to suck likud party ****

The "what?" Party? Did we gain a new Caucas?


quote:Originally Posted By Slim Shady


im voting for Nader, go green party


Ya, Nader was Nixon's best friend, and we know what a great Pres HE turned out to be


quote:Originally Posted By Bone Collector:

I know that most people who play this game are all for things like the legalization of marijuana,


My Response:
Bone, if you did research you'd know that marijuana is one of the greatest pain medications known to man, and the real criminals are the AMA who have continually generated an evil campaign against this natural herb in order to pump you and your loved ones with addictive and destructive man made processed opium derivatives, so that they can enslave you and keep you sick! C'mon man, your research hasn't as yet impressed me.


quote:Originally Posted By Slim Shady


save the rain forest!


My Response:


Save a tree, eat a beaver!



quote:Originally Posted By Orion Blastar


I would vote for Bush; however, I think he is doing a p*ss poor job on:

#1 Security, he is not cracking down on terrorists hard enough, and allows more Visa holders into the country when he should be limiting them.


My Response:

Bush didn't stop the Terrorists who destroyed the Trade Center because he was tired of "swatting at flies," they were just a "nuisance" in his eyes! What a load of manure! He didn't stop them then, why would he stop them now? They are job security for his Daddy's "New World Order," and the new SS Police force he and Congress are now establishing to take away all the last remaining freedoms we once held dear!


I live in Miami, and I have in my possession the record of the "Whistleblowers" within the Miami Airport Security who have stepped forward and revealed that they had the LEADER of the 911 in their custody just days before 911, he had a specific type of Visa that was highly questionable, but their Supervisor came in sporting a letter that had come straight from the top instructing them to let anyone go that came through with THAT particular Visa!


They let him go!


You don't have to be a genius to figure out what this fact reveals!



quote:Originally Posted By Boss

One thing that everyone doesnt seem to consider is a simple fact, the policies and actions of a sitting president dont start to show up in the general population or the economy for a period of 3-5 years unless its extremely drastic changes, such as the current war, or the huge tax cuts.
My Response:

Wow, a Rush Limbaugh fan! I heard his speech on that too, it made no sense then and it makes even less sense each time someone repeats it as fact!


quote:Originally Posted By By Slim:


many many people can now sleep well at night in iraq (not in faluja) without fear of having someone bust in their door in the middle of the night to rape and torture their whole family.

My Response:

Ya, too bad American's can't sleep at night without fear of someone breaking in and raping their family! We're building brand new state of the Art prisons in Iraq, meanwhile, our prisons are so overcrowded, Judges have no choice but to reduce sentences, and parole boards have no choice but to release! If the American People don't stop believing every stupid and incoherent piece of propoganda spewing from the Television, we are doomed! They don't call it an "idiot box" for no reason!


quote:Originally Posted By Typhoon:

This is because the bush 'income' tax doesn't heavily tax all possible forms of income - the most publicized exception are investments.

My Response:

I actually had trouble picking up on your position in this post. So, I will simply say this: Those who complain about tax breaks for "rich corporations" seem to forget that "rich corporations" are owned and run by Americans, who got ahead because this Country has the greatest Enterprise system ever devised! Rich Corporations are the bread and butter of American Economics! They forget that this Country is only strong because of people who start small businesses, then build them into Mega businesses!
A prime example of this would be John Kerry's latest campaign Ad in which he says "we are the richest country in the world," then concludes that because of this fact, Health Care should be FREE! Everyone cheers! Ridiculous! The Country is only strong because of FREE ENTERPRISE! Take that away from the Medical Industry and we'll see how long this Country stays "the richest Country in the world." He's clearly an idiot or a liar, or a little of both.

More to follow later But I leave you with this quote. For those of you who still believe that the "Patriot Act" and all of the other FREEDOM ROBBING steps being taken under the guise of "fighting terrorism" are good for this country, hear the words of Benjamin Franklin:

In 1776, the debates raged on concerning King George, whether he should be called a "Tyrant" in the Declaration. It was pointed out that he sent troops into Colonists home to search and sieze without warrant. The Delegation from Delaware defended the King saying "these are troubled times we live in, surely you can justify sacrificing a bit of freedom for some peace and safety."

To which ole Ben said his famous words:

"Those who would give up a little of their freedoms for peace and safety deserve neither freedom, nor peace and safety!"

the likud party is israel's current ruling party

quote:Originally posted by typh00n

the likud party is israel's current ruling party


Heh, dude I know that, I was makin fun.

So this sucker is still going? Wow. [:O]

I almost wish I had an opinion now. [;)]

1. Patriot Act: Please tell me how your freedoms have been violated and taken away. Dont come back with "It could happen...". Tell me WHEN, WHERE, and HOW your freedoms have been taken away.

2. Marijuana is illegal. If you did your research you would know it isnt good for you. Stop thinking there is a conspiracy behind everything that the government does.

3. Liberal media. When did Bush say that the terrorists were just a nuisance? Hmmm...he never said that. However, later on in your rant you make the claim that the TV is BAD. Perhaps you have listened a bit too much to the libbys on the evening news. Stop taking what they say as fact and really look into it. I mean, these are the same people who said "9-11 commission finds no link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda". With a little research you will find that is nowhere NEAR what they found, nor what they said. The liberal media has an agenda and it looks like they have you fooled as well. Sigh...

4. I sleep fine at night. My gun is resting close by so if someone breaks in my house you wont have to worry about them breaking in yours.

5. Are you arguing with the statement that policies dont have an immediate effect in many instances and especially when tax cuts are involved? If so, perhaps it is you who is lacking in research.

6. Finally, you typify the liberal mentality to a T. In one sentence you are crying about freedoms you have supposedly lost and in another you are crying because the government didnt do more to stop the terrorists. You cant have it both ways. Our government messed up and they follow it up by passing some tough laws that criminals dont like. I say good. Perhaps if the patriot act was in place before atta and his thugs would have had to postpone their meeting with the virgins while serving out a jail sentence. Of course, with the patriot act there you might have to be more careful about smoking your "pain" medication as you could be caught a bit more easily.

Now, I will leave you with a quote and you tell me which party espouses the correct belief about democracy:

The inherent dilemma of a democracy:
Early 19th century Professor Alexander Tytler described the dilemma of democracy in the following comments about ancient Athens:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes the candidates promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilization has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to complacency;
from complacency to apathy;
from apathy to dependency;
from dependency back into bondage."

Where are we now?

marijuana was criminalized (in 1937... i think) not on the basis of sound medical fact, but rather due to rather shaky testimonies - blaming marijuana for directly inspiring people to commit violent acts, causing "delirium rage" and other nonsense.

moreover - and more importantly, any logical individual can see that the costs of keeping marijuana illegal far outweigh the benefits.

quote: A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes the candidates promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship.

interesting
who was it that was promising the higher tax cuts (by a power of 3x i believe) during the 2000 elections?

quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector

1. Patriot Act: Please tell me how your freedoms have been violated and taken away. Dont come back with "It could happen...". Tell me WHEN, WHERE, and HOW your freedoms have been taken away.

My personal freedoms have already been violated, but not to the degree as other Americans. What? So because it hasn't happened to me to that degree I shouldn't worry about it? That's how the Nazi's came to power. They came for the radicals, and no one said a word. They came for the Homosexuals and no one said anything, they came for the Communists, and a few said something, then they came for the few who said something, and after that one by one they came for everyone that wasn't a part of the "Aryan master plan." If someone had spoken up when they first started violating human rights, they might not have made it to the massacres of the Jews! But no one did, because "their" rights weren't being violated!


quote:
2. Marijuana is illegal. If you did your research you would know it isnt good for you. Stop thinking there is a conspiracy behind everything that the government does.

Marijuana is "mildy" harmful in a "few" ways, but nothing compared to the CURRENT LEGAL DRUGS being sold by the AMA and the big DRUG COMPANIES! You need to do YOUR research.


quote:
3. Liberal media. When did Bush say that the terrorists were just a nuisance? Hmmm...he never said that.

Again, this shows how much research YOU have done. In Dr. Rice's own testimony defending the President's actions prior to 911 she ADMITTED he said this. Here is a quote for the actual TRANSCRIPT!

quote:Taken From Dr. Rice Testimony Transcripts

President Bush understood the threat, and he understood its importance. He made clear to us that he did not want to respond to al Qaeda one attack at a time. He told me he was tired of swatting flies.

I heard her say this with my own ears, of course you'll blame the "liberal media" but heh, I guess they did a "voice over" on that statement?

quote:
However, later on in your rant you make the claim that the TV is BAD. Perhaps you have listened a bit too much to the libbys on the evening news. Stop taking what they say as fact and really look into it. I mean, these are the same people who said "9-11 commission finds no link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda". With a little research you will find that is nowhere NEAR what they found, nor what they said. The liberal media has an agenda and it looks like they have you fooled as well. Sigh...

I think you need to go back and read my post, it appears you didn't understand a word I said. What I believe and what I wrote can IN NO WAY be considered "liberal propoganda."

quote:
4. I sleep fine at night. My gun is resting close by so if someone breaks in my house you wont have to worry about them breaking in yours.

Hope you don't have kids in the house. You're just asking for tragedy.

quote:
5. Are you arguing with the statement that policies dont have an immediate effect in many instances and especially when tax cuts are involved? If so, perhaps it is you who is lacking in research.
Again you didn't read my post, or understand it, I argued no such thing. Typhoon argued that a President's policies do not have an immediate effect and I said that was Rush Limbaugh nonsense!

quote:
6. Finally, you typify the liberal mentality to a T.

There you go again, more of your sweeping generalities and stereotypes! That statement there is comical! The following statement you made, well, it's just ignorant:

quote:
Of course, with the patriot act there you might have to be more careful about smoking your "pain" medication as you could be caught a bit more easily.

Just because I know the truth concerning the medicinal benefits of Marijuana and voice them publicly does not mean that I smoke it. I was "random" urine analyzed twice last year alone, being that I am a full time member of the Air Force Reserve! Yet, your accusation truly shows the danger of the "Patriot" act. Someone with your mentality could use the ACT to persecute people just because the publicly criticize American Foreign policy, saying "AHA A TERRORIST, ARREST HIM!"

You say it won't happen, but we have only your word, and it's not very trustworthy considering you just read a statement I made concerning the medicinal benefits of Pot and said "AHA A POT SMOKER ARREST HIM!"

Bone, as usually, every rebuttal post you make only proves my point!

quote: Typhoon argued that a President's policies do not have an immediate effect and I said that was Rush Limbaugh nonsense!

bull****, i never said anything of the sort
heh