quote:Originally posted by Stretch
Now if you are following this still, then you will see the apple industry is different from the chemical dumping industry in substantive terms. Apples = yummy, chemicals = bad in water supply.

But wait aren't the apple (trade haggling scripts) industries basically the same as the chemical dumping (noninteractive attack scripts) industries? How can you really tell them apart? They both provide products and services and fundamentally try to make money. Procedurally, these industries function in the same way.

But I know you can see a (substantive) difference between the apple and chemical industries, now just apply that logic to scripts.

ps: if you read this all the way through, i'm amazed.

I read it, but you're still not clearly drawing the line. The analogy doesn't hold up because toxic chemcials in the water supply are clearfuly physiologically harmful whereas photon scripts aren't. Draw the line for us. You're arguing something that you haven't defined. Don't commit Obscure Definition, tell us what exactly distinguishes between acceptable and not acceptable?

Can't we all just get along? :-p

Xentropy-

Thanks. You are smarter than me both in the way you present your argument but also in how you don't get bogged down in flamewars over insignificant details. I can only hope your post carries the day and makes its way to the people who can affect changed quickly.

Xentropy, I see what Stretch is saying, I just don't agree with it. I don't feel that there is a problem with abuse of scripting in TW. I think that returning players are comparing the TW of today to the TW they knew, which is wrong. The name is the same, the game is different. I started playing TW in the current environment, its what I'm used to and I have no problems with it. I don't believe there is any conspiracy to keep people in the dark about scripts or that a secret group of scripters is "keeping people down". Are some scripts kept private, sure. Big whoop. Just because a script is kept private doesn't mean its any better than a public one.

You also made a point that Stretch did, namely that people can just write scripts smart enough to avoid being faked out. MUCH easier said than done. Detailing how to determine what is a real fig hit that should be reacted to and what is a fake one takes time. The more checks and logic you put in to make sure its a "real" hit and needs to be responded to, the slower the script. Even if the script could determine with 100% accuracy which fig hits were real and which weren't, the extra logic would make it so slow that it couldn't effective respond to the real hits. Speed is more highly prized than intelligence in scripts for this reason. So, again. Most of the attack scripts are fast, but easy to fake out.

I realize that there is quite a difference between utility scripts and attack scripts. I was (a) trying to get stretch to clearly define what crosses the line and what doesnt and (b) yanking his chain because I don't like his attitude. However, I don't see that there is a problem with using an attack script. Is it wrong to use an attack macro? Its the same thing, just dumber. Besides which, even being on the losing side of an attack script does not automatically equate to the game being less fun. I have fun dodging and trying to dodge other peoples attacks and attack scripts. Sometimes you succeed, sometimes you don't. I don't cry everytime I get killed. My biggest problem with people taking your stance is that the majority of them seem to be overly averse to being killed, and show a distinct lack of willingness to adapt to current conditions. Don't just give credit to Traitor (though he deserves lots, for many many reasons), I've also said it many many times so far. If you don't like the way TW is played on "mainstream" servers, play somewhere with likeminded people. I DONT CARE. I'm not trying to get you to quit the game. I just want you to quit blaming scripters for all the evils of the world. If you think we ruined your game, thats nice. Keep it to yourself. We've all heard it a million times and we're tired of it. Would you enjoy being constantly told that you're responsible for ruining a game that you love? I doubt it. That was the whole point of my over-the-top spoof of a rant that started this thread. Play how you want, just shut up already.

Now onto Stretch. Sigh. This is getting really tiresome. Call it circular logic, but you're mischaracterizing my argument. To offer adequate commentary on "high level" (another term you've never bothered to define) scripting REQUIRES knowledge of it. This is just common sense. I don't know squat about nuclear reactors, so people shouldn't listen if I tell them whats wrong with nuclear reactor design. Duh. You may be familiar with scripting at large, but that is different from scripting within the context of TW. You words tell me that you really aren't familiar with what scripts can and can't do, and a lack of knowledge regarding both ways to use them and ways to avoid them. Therefore, I place little credence in your complaints against overwhelming scripts that are in reality simple to beat. As I explained above, a smarter script is not necessarily better, even if you can write one. You sacrifice speed when you add in intelligence, potentially making the script completely ineffective.

And yes, I was being mean spirited. I don't like you. I think you greatly overestimate your knowledge of modern TW and its effects. I think you intentionally write your posts using $10 words and oblique refences in order to convince people that you are smarter than they are and therefore shouldn't dare disagree with you. I think you are a whiner who refuses to learn what modern TW has to offer, merely bashing on it because its not identical to your memories. I think you're snide and mean-spirited while claiming to be scrupulous and polite. So there, answer your questions? You can believe whatever you want, I'm just saying that I disagree you with. If that gets your panties in a bunch, oh well. You don't own the rights to the game either. You don't have sole say in the way it should be. Fighting for the rights of the supposedly oppressed does not give you any moral authority either.

I don't think you truly understand what it is that you're criticizing. Nothing you have said has convinced me that you do. You're making sweeping derogatory statements about something you don't understand. If you're happy with that, I'll let it go. But I don't want those lurkers reading this who don't already know better to get the wrong impression. I put the following statements forward as FACTS. Scripts are not evil. Even the best scripts are not unbeatable. There is no secret cabal repressing the average TW player. ANYONE can learn to play competitively in a relatively short period of time. There are plenty of quality scripts publicly available and plenty of resources for those who want to learn to script on their own. Using an attack script is not bad, and it doesn't make you a bad person.

So anyways. FLAME OFF. I'm done. I'm tired of this already. It was amusing at first, now its old. Xentropy, Stretch - if you want to have a discussion thats fine. But I'm just going to ignore anything even approximating a flame, a whine, an insult or puffed up nitpicking. If either of you or anyone else wants to include those things in your posts, have fun. I'm just going to ignore them, because that crap just isn't worth any more of my time. If you want to have an actual discussion and perhaps learn more about what you are denigrating, we can do that. I have no problems explaining to the best of my knowledge what scripts can and cannot do, or peaceably debating the ethics of scripting. What I'm not going to do is carry on the petty squabbling that has been going on.

Whew. What a beast of a post. Smoke break.

You have equally done nothing to impress me with reasons high level scripting should remain a Gentlemen Only Club. You've admitted you have turned this thread into a personal flamewar purposely over some percieved slight I have made at you. You insult, you play word games, you quibble and throw out as many red herrings as possible, all in an attempt to guff up the signal-to-noise of this thread due to your fear of letting reasonable people talk about reasonable changes. Any board lurker has seen through your facade if they made it this far down the thread, but your tactics are likely to succeed in overwhelming any regular lurker. So congradulations, you lost the battle but won the war, which I am sure is the only way to win this sort of discussion these days.

BTW, I feel great vindication knowing my laissez faire analogy could not be mitigated. It is quite apt.

quote:Originally posted by Stretch

You have equally done nothing to impress me with reasons high level scripting should remain a Gentlemen Only Club. You've admitted you have turned this thread into a personal flamewar purposely over some percieved slight I have made at you. You insult, you play word games, you quibble and throw out as many red herrings as possible, all in an attempt to guff up the signal-to-noise of this thread due to your fear of letting reasonable people talk about reasonable changes. Any board lurker has seen through your facade if they made it this far down the thread, but your tactics are likely to succeed in overwhelming any regular lurker. So congradulations, you lost the battle but won the war, which I am sure is the only way to win this sort of discussion these days.

What makes you think scripts are a closed door society? I don't think it is. Many good scripts are publicly available. As a recently returned players, I don't believe you have the breadth of experience to make a claim like that. http://www.grimytrader.com has a large number of publicly available scripts, some of the highest caliber.

I didn't turn this thread into a flame war because of any perceived slights. It degenerated into flaming because of mutual sniping. Accept responsibility for the role you played. I believe that you are not a reasonable person, and that your suggested changes are neither reasonable nor necessary. You have also been insulting, have quibbled, have played word games and thrown out red herrings as much if not more than I did.

From your first post in this thread, you have accused me of being part of some uber elite group who lives to prey on less script savvy players, which could not be farther from the truth. I'm not an elite scripter or player. I'm a decent scripter and a pretty good player, nothing more. I'm also a teacher and advisor to many new players. I've helped many people to better learn the mechanics of TW, gameplay strategies, and scripting techniques. I encourage people to learn and to become better players. Read through my past posts if you're inclined to scoff. I spend a good amount of time trying to help other people to become better players and enjoy the game more.

I contribute more to the TW community than you do. I'm more active in the TW community than you are. I help more new and returning players adapt to the game and become good players than you. I don't deserve to be constantly denigrated for my style of play. And neither does anyone else. The logical continuation of your position is that people who use attack scripts are somehow wrong or bad for using them, and that we are wrong for playing the way we do. If it offends you that I'm going to stand up for myself and the others who are tired of this treatment, then you'll just have to learn to deal with it. You can't expect to come here and tell us that we're all a bunch of trigger happy, repressive, elitist cheaters who have ruined the best game ever and expect us to be happy about it.

I decided to answer your post even though it was a flame, was insulting, and full of nitpicking. I chose to answer because I feel that there is room here for reasonable discussion and I'm going to make one last attempt at it with you. This is it. Your response will dictate whether this becomes an actual discussion or whether I'm going to ignore your posts as flames.

Its hard to have a reasonable discussion as your posts have turned into putting false words in my mouth. Its easy to get carried away with the strawman routine for rhetorical purposes but it carries no weight to the discerning reader. I do not play these games and I do not call you names. I also do not participate in e-peen contests you are in constant need to play, like who contributes more to the TW community. If I said that, you'd ask me to define the community. Well great, you have no idea what I have done or not done for the TW community. Just because you are a board warrior on the official forums does not mean you speak for all those without a voice. I came here, as a paying customer, looking for help with high level scripting abuse, instead I got you trolling literally every thread I participate in, trying your damnedest to block any help from being found. If you are indeed a representative of the high level scripting community then I certainly abhor the personality that comes with the elitism of said group.

Stretch, how would you feel if someone constantly came up to you and told you that you ruined something that you love and enjoy?

We prefer the style of scripted play you don’t why are we wrong for this and you are right?

We don’t go to your servers and bash on you for playing by hand do we?

We are more then willing to let you be as long as you can accept us the way we are and stop bashing on us.

There a real simple way to keep scripters off your server close the game so that the players have to ask to be let in to the game that way you can regulate the type of player if your so paranoid. Most people who play the way we do give our best to avoid servers where people don’t want scripts just post the rules where we can see them and we will leave you alone its that simple.

Dam it!

Its not abuse that’s your opinion. And there’s no such thing a high level scripts.

Stop insulting us we are not abusing anything.

quote:Originally posted by Stretch

Its hard to have a reasonable discussion as your posts have turned into putting false words in my mouth. Its easy to get carried away with the strawman routine for rhetorical purposes but it carries no weight to the discerning reader. I do not play these games and I do not call you names. I also do not participate in e-peen contests you are in constant need to play, like who contributes more to the TW community. If I said that, you'd ask me to define the community. Well great, you have no idea what I have done or not done for the TW community. Just because you are a board warrior on the official forums does not mean you speak for all those without a voice. I came here, as a paying customer, looking for help with high level scripting abuse, instead I got you trolling literally every thread I participate in, trying your damnedest to block any help from being found. If you are indeed a representative of the high level scripting community then I certainly abhor the personality that comes with the elitism of said group.


I don't see that you've made an honest attempt yet. You didn't attempt to answer any of the honest questions I asked. So I'm through with you unless and until you shape up. You complained that there was no reasonable discussion, I offered one and asked questions. You declined.

Xentropy, you seem to be much more reasonable, perhaps you would care to have a real discussion on this matter? What makes you think scripting is a closed door society that is hurting the game? Do you understand that the hyper intelligent scripts you mentioned earlier are not feasible for reasons of speed? Do you realize that most attack scripts are in fact simple to fool? Why does any script that potentially kills another player automatically make the game less enjoyable? Killing and getting killed are integral parts of the game. Just a few off the top of my head, if you're up to it, we can go from there.

quote:Originally posted by Psion

Xentropy, I see what Stretch is saying, I just don't agree with it. I don't feel that there is a problem with abuse of scripting in TW. I think that returning players are comparing the TW of today to the TW they knew, which is wrong. The name is the same, the game is different. I started playing TW in the current environment, its what I'm used to and I have no problems with it.
So what is inherently wrong about wanting to see some server settings that would allow some games to be run in the old style? I have no problem with servers being run in the new style; my issue is that there is no way to have a public game without nonutilitarian scripts.

quote:I don't believe there is any conspiracy to keep people in the dark about scripts or that a secret group of scripters is "keeping people down". Are some scripts kept private, sure. Big whoop. Just because a script is kept private doesn't mean its any better than a public one.
Granted, a script isn't better because it's private. But, in general, the most common reasons a given script is kept private are: 1) because it's better than the scripts publically available, and 2) because the scripter doesn't want to give away the weaknesses of the script for it to be exploited. If I must use the latter argument instead of the former, then the public scripts are inherently worse *because* they are public and thus easier to exploit (since one can study the script line by line to find exploits in it). Once again, by a different but no less valid path, the conclusion is reached that one must be able to *make* private scripts or *have access to* private scripts through a friend or permacorp in order to succeed.

quote:You also made a point that Stretch did, namely that people can just write scripts smart enough to avoid being faked out. MUCH easier said than done. Detailing how to determine what is a real fig hit that should be reacted to and what is a fake one takes time. The more checks and logic you put in to make sure its a "real" hit and needs to be responded to, the slower the script. Even if the script could determine with 100% accuracy which fig hits were real and which weren't, the extra logic would make it so slow that it couldn't effective respond to the real hits. Speed is more highly prized than intelligence in scripts for this reason. So, again. Most of the attack scripts are fast, but easy to fake out.

I agree that it is much easier said than done, and that is why TradeWars has become CodeWars. He who codes best, wins. And if you are going to argue that intelligent scripts will be slower than a player making decisions on the fly, then the current scripting engines are not very well optimized. Nothing a script needs to do with regards to reaction to incoming data should take very long. (Analysis of huge amounts of sector data is an exception, but you're not crunching numbers from 20000 sectors in a pdrop script, you're crunching 2 lines, "Incoming message from fighters in sector X, player Y has entered the sector.") Theoretically, someone could write their own telnet program and integrate the scripting directly into it via C++ code. That would be no less classifiable as scripting, and invalidates arguments about slow speed and/or the lack of options/functionality available in the language. In addition, the very nature of good scripts is that they are iterative, which means they're improved over time by the scripter. As exploits are discovered, they are patched. If there's a way to get the script to drain all the ore for nothing, the scripter finds a way to stop that. These improvements are only available to them and their close allies, and rarely if at all distributed publically, perhaps after several months of improvements have built up. Again the advantage is with the actual coder and public scripts play second fiddle.

quote:I realize that there is quite a difference between utility scripts and attack scripts. I was (a) trying to get stretch to clearly define what crosses the line and what doesnt and (b) yanking his chain because I don't like his attitude. However, I don't see that there is a problem with using an attack script.
Well, at least you have changed your argument to a more valid one. "Both script types are the same," was just making you sound naive, as well as those who backed you on that stance, and I knew you couldn't actually be that closed-minded. "Attack scripts are very different, but I think they're okay," is a much more valid statement, but is an opinion rather than a fact, so we've at least arrived upon the true difference between the sides here.

quote:My biggest problem with people taking your stance is that the majority of them seem to be overly averse to being killed, and show a distinct lack of willingness to adapt to current conditions.
I don't care about being killed. I do care about being killed by someone who uses inferior strategy because scripts have made up for that inferiority by taking me out with an instantaneously-moving planet in a way that my ship that takes 3 seconds to move can't escape, which is what's going on in CodeWars today. In effect, with a scripter in a ship delay game with a mobile planet, hitting one fighter is instant death. Period. No way around it. Not macros, not scripts, not the best strategy in the world. THAT is more the issue than scripts themselves. Those of us on the side of "no nonutilitarian scripts" don't pdrop. We play TradeWars, not CodeWars, and we play by a set of rules that those of you on the scripting side don't seem to comprehend. We don't even pdrop by hand. It just isn't honorable, and it shouldn't be part of the game. It is a broken tactic due to what is in effect a bug in movement delays.

(Edit: Yes, I'm aware there is at least one way around pdrop, which is to have two players, the one entering the sector takes out the fig and drops a fig, then notifies the second player via subspace or PM, who brings a shielded planet and the first player lands, hopefully all quickly enough to protect him from the photon. That whole operation is basically impossible to perform without counterscripts, however (I'd love to meet the team who can do this by hand quickly enough to beat a script), which just further reinforces the nature of the game as CodeWars rather than TradeWars.)

quote:Don't just give credit to Traitor (though he deserves lots, for many many reasons), I've also said it many many times so far. If you don't like the way TW is played on "mainstream" servers, play somewhere with likeminded people. I DONT CARE. I'm not trying to get you to quit the game. I just want you to quit blaming scripters for all the evils of the world. If you think we ruined your game, thats nice. Keep it to yourself. We've all heard it a million times and we're tired of it. Would you enjoy being constantly told that you're responsible for ruining a game that you love? I doubt it. That was the whole point of my over-the-top spoof of a rant that started this thread. Play how you want, just shut up already.
The problem is if we try to keep it to ourselves, we also have to keep our servers to ourselves. If we post a game on the rebang forum, scripters show up and pdrop, whether or not a rule is in place forbidding pdrop scripts. They can then claim as much as they want that they manually pdropped, not used a script, and there is absolutely nothing a sysop can do about it, because there's no way to tell from the server side and no way to disable such things either. If we post a game and say nonutilitarian scripts aren't allowed, and/or pdrops aren't allowed, several of the folks on your idealogical side come into the thread and bash the game for not allowing scripts, turning off everyone to the game. Those of us against scripting are not the only ones to blame for the wars that crop up.

quote:Xentropy, Stretch - if you want to have a discussion thats fine. But I'm just going to ignore anything even approximating a flame, a whine, an insult or puffed up nitpicking. If either of you or anyone else wants to include those things in your posts, have fun. I'm just going to ignore them, because that crap just isn't worth any more of my time. If you want to have an actual discussion and perhaps learn more about what you are denigrating, we can do that. I have no problems explaining to the best of my knowledge what scripts can and cannot do, or peaceably debating the ethics of scripting. What I'm not going to do is carry on the petty squabbling that has been going on.
If you feel I've been flaming, whining, insulting, or in any way out of line, I guess I should just leave now, because none of that was my intention, and I certainly don't see any of it in my posts. Sorry.

The thing that bothers me most in regards to complaints about scripting is the overall lack of understanding of what they are complaining about. I am one of those "uber-scripters" and am friends with some of the best scripters ever to script for trade wars. I am fully aware of what is out there in terms of scripts. From this knowledge, I can tell you that there is no "safe" afk attack script out there. So the majority of complaints about scripts fall into two categories 1) Complaints about scripts that don't exist or 2) Complaints about scripts that are beatable.

That said, I also see the other side of this argument. When a player uses photon/kill scripts, it forces the other players to respond in kind. They must then use the same sort of scripts plus scripts/macros to evade those scripts. Pretty soon, the casual player is left without a game they enjoy. Psion is a good player, he scripts, he plays off and on all day long, he really gets into a game of trade wars. What about the player who just wants to log in, play for an hour, and then forget it for another day? This sort of player can not realistically compete against a Psion.

Personally, I like both sides of the game. I enjoy writing scripts and trying to push the game to it's limits. I like finding new and innovative ways to find and kill my enemy. At the same time, I like relaxed games where I can go killing figs by hand (or even a simple macro) and not have to worry about being photoned and killed. These two games are mutually exclusive, however. The problem that people like stretch and xentropy have is that it only takes one person playing the former way to completely ruin the latter game. I understand how they can feel bitter about those tactics that ruin their enjoyment of the game. I understand their desire for a change to Trade Wars itself to allow them to play their way without fear of it becoming a split second reaction game.

Now for the bad news. I don't know that there is any way to make happen what stretch and xentropy want. Even with delays added, they would have to be huge to allow someone to casually move through the universe without being killed. I know John has some ideas about this, but quite frankly, I don't know that they'll work. The only way to find out is for him to finish v4 and see how it plays out.

Finally, there have been a lot of analogies thrown out here. I don't think this matter is serious enough to compare it to economic models or apples and chemicals. This is a difference between cut throat cribbage and friendly cribbage. Some people want to play ultra competative games where they take advantage of their opponents in any possible way and others just want to sit around and play a fun game with friends.

That's my take on this, take it for what you will.

Thanks, Harley. I agree 100% with your post.

As to whether John's ideas for v4 will work, I think just fighter reports being delayed 60 seconds would go a long way toward fixing the problem with twitch-reactive scripting. We'll see, though. Hopefully. [:)]

quote:
(Edit: Yes, I'm aware there is at least one way around pdrop, which is to have two players, the one entering the sector takes out the fig and drops a fig, then notifies the second player via subspace or PM, who brings a shielded planet and the first player lands, hopefully all quickly enough to protect him from the photon. That whole operation is basically impossible to perform without counterscripts, however (I'd love to meet the team who can do this by hand quickly enough to beat a script), which just further reinforces the nature of the game as CodeWars rather than TradeWars.)


Just a quick note on strategy and countermeasures here. Ship transports have no delay, either. So if you kill a fighter and then xport to another ship, you will not be photoned. There are valid tactics to use in a ship delay game to avoid photon scripts, but it really is a pain in the Butt and still iffy against a really good opponent.

No, I think that post was just fine. I don't agree with many of the things you said, but I'll address those in turn. I think all those things apply to what Stretch has posted, but you responded in an intelligent and reasonable manner, and I will do the same.

My point is that I don't believe there is a need for a game specifically structured to be without non-utilitarian scripts. If people don't want to play with scripts thats fine, but I don't see the reasoning behind changing the game to enforce your personal standards of honor or good gameplay. There are some settings that can be changed to make a game less hospitable to scripting and if it was clearly stated in the rebang posting that the game was specifically for non-scripters, I don't see many scripting players showing up just to ruin it.

I also have a couple problems with your stance on scripts. In my experience, which seems to be more extensive than yours at least in this area, the very best private scripts offer only a very tiny performance increase over the commonly available ones. And there are some exceptional scripts available publicly. CK's Combat Pack for example. Many many people paid for licenses to use these scripts, they are that good. They are now completely free to use. RammaR's gridding scripts are among the best out there, and they are all completely free. There are many other examples, but it comes down to this. I don't think that the advantage granted by access to private scripts is in any way overwhelming or even overly significant. There are some exceptions, but the majority of the top private scripts are information or utility scripts, not combat scripts. Combat scripts seem to be your main beef, but they aren't guarded nearly as fiercely as the dataminers are.

As to script intelligence, as I've said, its secondary to speed in most cases. Many combat scripts don't even bother to check whether or not an alien is hitting the fig, because that extra processing slows it down minutely, making it less effective. The kind of hyper-intelligent, discretionary scripts that you are talking about do not exist, to my knowledge. Nothing even close. The potential future existence of said scripts does not strike me as a valid argument against combat scripts currently in use. A simple retreat macro is all you need to fake all 95%+ of the offensive scripts out there. One other minor correction, just because a script is publicly released does not mean that it is open source. Some are, some aren't.

Ship delay is fubared. Granted. But I don't think thats necessarily a huge problem. I don't feel that the ship delay option adds much if anything to the game. The majority of games do not use it, and I don't miss it. I've played it, I don't like it. What do you feel it adds to the game? Why is it necessary?

A use of combat scripts does not necessarily indicate a lack of strategic capability. It requires a different use of strategy from the one you're more accustomed to, but a strategy nonetheless.

I can understand that you might want to play a casual "low intensity" game, even though I personally do not enjoy that style of play as much. Have you tried advertising for a low turn game with a time limit and lowered commands per cycle, etc that specifically states in the post that its for non-scripters? I have not seen any ads like that here that I can recall. When you say that posting leads to scripters ruining your games, are you speaking from experience or conjecture? Keep in mind that even in this game, people may perform pdrops by hand. And even if you may personally consider it dishonorable (though I don't understand why), but if they do it by hand, then its an acceptable though "cheesy" tactic, right?