NOT SO FAST FOO.

Main Stream media?
You think like a sheeple, no ****ing way I give full faith and credit to any dammed MAIN STREAM MEDIA.

Don't you know I run one of the best FORUMS on the NET for any thing BUT main stream Media.

I support first hand reporting by NONE corporate types.

Not only do I distrust Media Giants, I also think your posts lack any substance, you dont post many real points.,.... just vague remarks, like most lame Butt republicans.


I bet you love RUSH LIMBAUGH too eh bones?


Res Judicata


quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector

I will aplogize for you res as you spend too much time at home. The media is not a good source of information unless you are a democrat. I know that you THINK they are telling the truth, but do a little research and I think you might become a more likable fellow. As for Kerry, heh. Waffler. Liar. Liberal. I know that most people who play this game are all for things like the legalization of marijuana, baby killing, etc, but us REAL Americans see right through the MOST LIBERAL VOTING SENATOR we have and wont let the media sway us into believing Kerry is anything other than what he is.

quote:Originally posted by KingD
Quit giving out greencards to every immigrant so that jobs go to American citizens (which would cut down on government spending on trying to prop up the economy). And quit giving healthcare/welfare to those who are not legal citizens. (just to name a few)


So exactly what jobs are they taking? When was the last time anyone here picked lettuce or any of the other countless jobs done by these people? By the way those services they provide by picking lettuce and other produce are what keep the cost of produce down.

As for healthcare, I find it interesting that a large portion of population have no health care coverage. That needs to be fixed. When someone has money and healthcare programs to lean on they see no need to fix these issues. There are children who do not have basic medical coverage because their parents simply can't afford it. What do we do about them? Say ****'em? I've been in the US Navy for 23 years now, and have served proudly and honorably. My family is taken care of medically better than in the civilian sector. For example I pay around $19 to $20 bucks a month for the healthcare and about the same for dental. My family doctor is a civilian and so is the dentist. If it is possible to do that in the Navy and Military in general why can't insurance companies come up with similar plans to aid the average citizen, or even the below the poverty line citizen? Healthcare in this country is in need of serious repair.

Welfare needs reforming. The current system of 'give a limit of 5 years and then nothing doesn't work.' Perhaps if they offered training to help them get jobs and become more productive by the time the 5 years is up. At the moment that doesn't happen. Here is what you will see as a result. A increase in crime as these people are dropped from welfare and have no alternative training to get jobs. Sure there are those that use and abuse the system. I think that if training were offered it would be less of a problem. Ever try to support a family on a minimum wage job? Even two minimum wage jobs it really doesn't work.

Oh and by the way. Just a note, not related to KingD's original message. The notion that all military members support Bush is laughable at best. Republican or Democrat, both serve ther country with distinction and honor. You tarnish the memory of all who have served and those who have sacrificed their lives in service to their country when you say Republicans or Democrats are more patriotic than the other. Both clearly love their country.

Thanks
Brian

Oh, one last thing. Help the environment. Plant a Bush in Texas in 2004!

quote:Originally posted by Brian T

quote:Originally posted by KingD
Quit giving out greencards to every immigrant so that jobs go to American citizens (which would cut down on government spending on trying to prop up the economy). And quit giving healthcare/welfare to those who are not legal citizens. (just to name a few)


So exactly what jobs are they taking? When was the last time anyone here picked lettuce or any of the other countless jobs done by these people? By the way those services they provide by picking lettuce and other produce are what keep the cost of produce down.



Pennywise and poundfoolish, while they are paid $1/hr to pick lettuce, they do not contribute anything to the economy (hardly on that salary), don't pay taxes, etc. They leech off of social programs that tax payers pay for. Not to mention that they break Civil Laws and the companies that hire them break Civil Laws as well. Wal-Mart got nailed for hiring contracted cleaners who where illegals. If they paid $5/hr, money would have paid for taxes, medicare/medicade, etc and the produce company would have gotten more people who could afford to buy their produce. By hiring slave-labor, they are putting citizens out of work, which makes fewer people who can afford to buy from US companies.

Besides a robot picking machine can pick produce cheaper than slave-labor anyway. [;)]

quote:
As for healthcare, I find it interesting that a large portion of population have no health care coverage. That needs to be fixed. When someone has money and healthcare programs to lean on they see no need to fix these issues. There are children who do not have basic medical coverage because their parents simply can't afford it. What do we do about them? Say ****'em? I've been in the US Navy for 23 years now, and have served proudly and honorably. My family is taken care of medically better than in the civilian sector. For example I pay around $19 to $20 bucks a month for the healthcare and about the same for dental. My family doctor is a civilian and so is the dentist. If it is possible to do that in the Navy and Military in general why can't insurance companies come up with similar plans to aid the average citizen, or even the below the poverty line citizen? Healthcare in this country is in need of serious repair.


Socialized medicine is not the answer. Health Care organizations have to offer discounted bills to lower income individuals. This includes lower insurance copays, etc. Also make health insurance funded like a 401K, you pay into it, and it grows. Then when you need the money, it is taken out of your medical 401K. So while you are healthy, the amount grows. When you get sick, it is taken out of your account. Anything your account does not cover is paid on a sliding scale based on your income.

quote:
Welfare needs reforming. The current system of 'give a limit of 5 years and then nothing doesn't work.' Perhaps if they offered training to help them get jobs and become more productive by the time the 5 years is up. At the moment that doesn't happen. Here is what you will see as a result. A increase in crime as these people are dropped from welfare and have no alternative training to get jobs. Sure there are those that use and abuse the system. I think that if training were offered it would be less of a problem. Ever try to support a family on a minimum wage job? Even two minimum wage jobs it really doesn't work.


It is cheaper to provide vocational training for a junior college than it is to keep someone on welfare for the rest of their lives. Imagine a certificate in CMT, CNA, Legal Assistant, Word Processing, something they can earn a living off of. Make it a student loan that they pay back. If they do good, they can quality for a student loan for a 4 year or higher college. It should not take them 5 years to earn a certificate from a junior college.

quote:
Oh and by the way. Just a note, not related to KingD's original message. The notion that all military members support Bush is laughable at best. Republican or Democrat, both serve ther country with distinction and honor. You tarnish the memory of all who have served and those who have sacrificed their lives in service to their country when you say Republicans or Democrats are more patriotic than the other. Both clearly love their country.

Thanks
Brian


Well I for one never said that, nor will I ever. I respect our military putting their lives on the line for our freedom. Fighting wars that we may not win, but will try our best anyway. I was in the Army ROTC program myself, and I worked at a local Army Base on the computer systems they had. I almost joined the Army, but I got sick, and I was a Federal Contractor instead. My illnesses/disabilities classify me as a 4F I think, but I am doing my best to get better. I am 35 now and too old for the military, unless they change the rules. I heard they wanted to draft computer people from age 18 to 45, not sure if that is going to happen. With my background, I'd be perfect for the draft, if I was well enough to go.

quote:Oh and by the way. Just a note, not related to KingD's original message. The notion that all military members support Bush is laughable at best. Republican or Democrat, both serve ther country with distinction and honor. You tarnish the memory of all who have served and those who have sacrificed their lives in service to their country when you say Republicans or Democrats are more patriotic than the other. Both clearly love their country.

Who ever state that all military members supported Bush??? But whether you support Bush or not, is not the issue! Everyone should support our troops and the decisions of our government to go to war. We have to show a unified front! It's demeaning to our troops and to our country when our own citizens speak out publicly against what we are doing to combat terroism! The terroists are using our own "freedom of speach" against us! Remember people, United we stand, Divided we fall! You may not like it but its the truth! So until every last terroist is DEAD and BURIED, we can never give up, we can never back down, we must stay united no matter what your specific political ideas are.

quote:Originally posted by KingD

quote:Oh and by the way. Just a note, not related to KingD's original message.

Who ever state that all military members supported Bush???

I never said anyone here said that. Hence the line I wrote above. It was a simple statement based on other things I have read from around the internet. I know that almost everyone supports the troops. Most folks, especially those who have served know that you may not agree with the method in which the war in Iraq was brought about, but those of us in the military are still bound by the UCMJ to follow it as it is a lawful order. Obviously excluding the retards at the prison.

quote:Originally posted by KingD
We have to show a unified front! It's demeaning to our troops and to our country when our own citizens speak out publicly against what we are doing to combat terroism!

Actually, to disagree with our government is one of the fundemental rights of all its citizens. To say otherwise is demeaning to everyone including those who have fought and those who have died for that right. We can disagree on somethings and may agree on others or not. That is what makes us strong. No one should ever let their fellow citizens be stomped on because they disagree or agree with our government. It is a fundemental right.

quote:Originally posted by KingD
The terroists are using our own "freedom of speach" against us! Remember people, United we stand, Divided we fall!

So we should give up one of our fundemental rights? Trust our government to do the right thing? I think not. That is totally ludicrous. I for one am proud to know that I can speak out when I disagree with my government. To stop citizens from expressing their opinion about the war because it divides us is ridiculous. I think it is what makes us strong. It is what unites us. I may disagree with Bush and other Republicans about a great many things, but I would never try to hush them because they disagreed with me. Nor would I use the arguement that it divides us.

quote:Originally posted by KingD
You may not like it but its the truth! So until every last terroist is DEAD and BURIED, we can never give up, we can never back down, we must stay united no matter what your specific political ideas are.

I will tell you this. I whole heartly supported the decision to got into Afghanistan after the Taliban and al-Queda. Fear is the greatest tool to control people. You may not like that but it is the truth.

You are right about one thing. We cannot just back out and leave Iraq now. If we did it would be worse than it ever was under Sadam. Look at what happened in Afghanistan after we helped them drive the former Soviet Union out. This allowed the Taliban and al-Queda to florish. Of course it didn't help that we trained and equiped many members of those groups to fight the Soviets.

The point is that we have to bring international support into Iraq to help take some of the load off and have any real chance at salvaging and building a democracy. By the way so far I would say the experiment in democracy building ain't working. We can not be the world police.

You do realize that much of the focus has been taken off of Afghanistan by Iraq. Troops, and supplies needed to pursue the remaining terrorists in that country are in Iraq fighting a war that didn't need to be fought right now.

Well eitherway, I also agree that everyone should support the troops in anyway you can. But I for one am not willing to give up a fundemental right to disagree with my government. I have not served my country for the past 23 years, going on 24 to give that up.

Sorry for the long response.. [;)]

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar
Pennywise and poundfoolish, while they are paid $1/hr to pick lettuce, they do not contribute anything to the economy (hardly on that salary), don't pay taxes, etc. They leech off of social programs that tax payers pay for. Not to mention that they break Civil Laws and the companies that hire them break Civil Laws as well. Wal-Mart got nailed for hiring contracted cleaners who where illegals. If they paid $5/hr, money would have paid for taxes, medicare/medicade, etc and the produce company would have gotten more people who could afford to buy their produce. By hiring slave-labor, they are putting citizens out of work, which makes fewer people who can afford to buy from US companies.

Besides a robot picking machine can pick produce cheaper than slave-labor anyway. [;)]


Actually I agree with you in principle. Wal-Mart is evil.[:D] Seriously most jobs that have been lost in the last 3.5 years or so have not been to "slave labor". At least not the "slave labor" here. It has been lost to over-seas slave labor. What do they call it now? "Out sourcing" I think. People working for a fraction of what is paid here. As for violation of civil law. Why not start a work program that would allow them to work on the farms legally? It has been discussed and even brought up in legislation here in California. Unfortunately it has been blocked by farmers as they would then be subject to inspections by health and human services organizations. I'm not sure that would work either. You never know until you try.

I like the robot pickers idea. Do they have them? [;)]

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar
Socialized medicine is not the answer. Health Care organizations have to offer discounted bills to lower income individuals. This includes lower insurance copays, etc. Also make health insurance funded like a 401K, you pay into it, and it grows. Then when you need the money, it is taken out of your medical 401K. So while you are healthy, the amount grows. When you get sick, it is taken out of your account. Anything your account does not cover is paid on a sliding scale based on your income.

I never advocated socialized medicine. The problem is that health care organizations do not offer discount bills to lower income individuals. A health plan 401K type plan might work. Most major companies will fight it. They will argue that prices for goods and services will rise, or workers will have to take cuts in pay to get that. Look at the recent grocery store strike. I'm not sure how far it reached across the country but it was very strong here in San Diego. Anyway, one of the points they argued over was having to pay a higher co-pay with no corresponding increase in pay. I think these grocery stores are trying to compete with stores like the Walmart supper stores that are coming in here. They will need to cut overhead to do that. Walmart does not play well with others.

As a side note:
They were recently blocked from building in Hayward California near San Francisco due to their record of unfair labor practices.

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar
It is cheaper to provide vocational training for a junior college than it is to keep someone on welfare for the rest of their lives. Imagine a certificate in CMT, CNA, Legal Assistant, Word Processing, something they can earn a living off of. Make it a student loan that they pay back. If they do good, they can quality for a student loan for a 4 year or higher college. It should not take them 5 years to earn a certificate from a junior college.

I agree with you. It would be easier and cheaper to train them to complete a certification in anyone of a number areas. That was not what I meant. I was refering to the current welfare reform that calls for a 5 year max to collect welfare and then you are done regardless of circumstance. With a little extra funding in the program you could put them into the vocational training at a minimum. The short term cost would be a bit more, but I believe the long term benefit would far out weigh that. Most folks on welfare cannot qualify for student loans as it stands now. But I do like your premise for paying back what they take out of it. That would off set a lot of the cost of the program.

quote:Originally posted by Orion_Blastar
Well I for one never said that, nor will I ever. I respect our military putting their lives on the line for our freedom. Fighting wars that we may not win, but will try our best anyway. I was in the Army ROTC program myself, and I worked at a local Army Base on the computer systems they had. I almost joined the Army, but I got sick, and I was a Federal Contractor instead. My illnesses/disabilities classify me as a 4F I think, but I am doing my best to get better. I am 35 now and too old for the military, unless they change the rules. I heard they wanted to draft computer people from age 18 to 45, not sure if that is going to happen. With my background, I'd be perfect for the draft, if I was well enough to go.

I do realize no one here said that. [:D] It was a simple statement based on other things I have read from around the internet. I know that almost everyone supports the troops. Perhaps not the war, but the troops. Sure there are those who condem the troops too because of a few dumb*** folks in that prison and for other reasons but they really do not understand the whole point of obeying a lawful order. Like the war or not, it was a lawful order. We are bound by the UCMJ to follow it. What those individuals in that prison have done is not an example of following lawful orders. If they were given those orders they were certainly not lawful orders. I wish they would remember that the statement "I was only following orders" has never worked as a defense.

As for the draft. Being a member of the US Navy I would be absolutely opposed to the draft. A volunteer force is better trained and has better moral than a drafted one. The mention of the draft was the current administrations way of testing the waters to see what the publics position would be on it. I would say based on Mr. Rumsfelds dismisal of the notion they did not get a favorable reading on it.

Having said everything I have said so there is no misunderstanding here. I am proud of my service to my country and to the ideals it upholds. I am proud to serve with finest men and women in uniform and will continue to do so for as long as I am able or allowed. That will be August of 2005. I will have reached 24 years of service and due to current restrictions I must retire. It sadens me, but what the heck. Time to start my second career. [:D]

Thanks and keep up the debate, it is healthy and promotes unity,
Brian

PS: Tradewars Rocks!

Wow Brian T, I am not sure I can top that. Well said.

aye
cheers

quote:Actually, to disagree with our government is one of the fundemental rights of all its citizens. To say otherwise is demeaning to everyone including those who have fought and those who have died for that right. We can disagree on somethings and may agree on others or not. That is what makes us strong. No one should ever let their fellow citizens be stomped on because they disagree or agree with our government. It is a fundemental right.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by KingD
The terroists are using our own "freedom of speach" against us! Remember people, United we stand, Divided we fall!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So we should give up one of our fundemental rights? Trust our government to do the right thing? I think not. That is totally ludicrous. I for one am proud to know that I can speak out when I disagree with my government. To stop citizens from expressing their opinion about the war because it divides us is ridiculous. I think it is what makes us strong. It is what unites us. I may disagree with Bush and other Republicans about a great many things, but I would never try to hush them because they disagreed with me. Nor would I use the arguement that it divides us.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by KingD
You may not like it but its the truth! So until every last terroist is DEAD and BURIED, we can never give up, we can never back down, we must stay united no matter what your specific political ideas are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I will tell you this. I whole heartly supported the decision to got into Afghanistan after the Taliban and al-Queda. Fear is the greatest tool to control people. You may not like that but it is the truth.

You are right about one thing. We cannot just back out and leave Iraq now. If we did it would be worse than it ever was under Sadam. Look at what happened in Afghanistan after we helped them drive the former Soviet Union out. This allowed the Taliban and al-Queda to florish. Of course it didn't help that we trained and equiped many members of those groups to fight the Soviets.

The point is that we have to bring international support into Iraq to help take some of the load off and have any real chance at salvaging and building a democracy. By the way so far I would say the experiment in democracy building ain't working. We can not be the world police.

You do realize that much of the focus has been taken off of Afghanistan by Iraq. Troops, and supplies needed to pursue the remaining terrorists in that country are in Iraq fighting a war that didn't need to be fought right now.

Well eitherway, I also agree that everyone should support the troops in anyway you can. But I for one am not willing to give up a fundemental right to disagree with my government. I have not served my country for the past 23 years, going on 24 to give that up.

I never said that we should give up our fundemental rights!! I think that you read all of that in the wrong context!!! Yes the freedom to speak one's mind or to state your personal opinion is our right and always should be. What I am saying is that when you have different groups of people all (Very loudly and Publicly) bad mouthing our president, bad mouthing our country (the one they live in), protesting against there own country during a time when everyone should be United. It portrays a weak and Divided image to the countries of the world. If you think that the Terrorist's of the world aren't smiling, laughing and jumping for joy everytime the news media, broadcasts our own citizens protesting our efforts in the Middle East (and the rest of the world), then your very mistaken. Yes! our diversity and differing opinions do make us strong! But in the eyes of the Terrorist's it's a weakness to be exploited and used against us! They all have the same agenda, the same thought going through their evil little minds..."Destroy America and everything we stand for". As for getting support from the rest of the world..LOL....most of the countries in the world are too weak and cowardly to even think about trying to stamp out terrorism! Oh, America you send in 200 thousand troops and we'll match that with 1500 troop, fair trade huh..NOT!!! And don't even bring up the United Nations, that organization is a total joke and a waste! And of course or government makes mistakes, anyone who would think otherwise is a moron!

I am not a Republican and I am not a Democrat, I'm an American!

I just want to say that I always found that John Kerry a little abrasive, a little bit of an overstater, but I will still vote for him. I just don't see getting American troops getting blown away in some part of the world that hates our guts. There are, IMO, more important things to do than have a full blown war in some Darn desert in the middle of nowhere.

originally posted by KingD
quote: most of the countries in the world are too weak and cowardly to even think about trying to stamp out terrorism! Oh, America you send in 200 thousand troops and we'll match that with 1500 troop, fair trade huh..NOT!!! And don't even bring up the United Nations, that organization is a total joke and a waste!

i think you're confused. Iraq had/has nothin to do with stamping out terrorism, and was entirely our initiative (not 'oh please America invade this country for us').

quote:---------------------------------------------------------------------
most of the countries in the world are too weak and cowardly to even think about trying to stamp out terrorism! Oh, America you send in 200 thousand troops and we'll match that with 1500 troop, fair trade huh..NOT!!! And don't even bring up the United Nations, that organization is a total joke and a waste!
--------------------------------------------------------------------


i think you're confused. Iraq had/has nothin to do with stamping out terrorism, and was entirely our initiative (not 'oh please America invade this country for us').

I'm not confused, but I think that you are! I never once mentioned Iraq!!! Re-read my post, I was talking about Terrorism NOT Iraq! And I never said "oh please america invade this country for us"...do you know anything about history? Go back to every encounter in the past 20 years, were the countries of the world sent troops anywhere for any reason, find the numbers, find the stats..(I won't do the work for you)..America has always sent more troops, while most countries just send a token force. And by the way, I have family in Iraq, Afganistan and several other areas of the world, all of which are in the Military! And don't try to tell me that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, if you believe that, then your a Darn fool!

quote:Originally posted by KingD
I never said that we should give up our fundemental rights!! I think that you read all of that in the wrong context!!!

Perhaps you read all of my response in the wrong context. I simply asked a question.

quote:Originally posted by KingD
What I am saying is that when you have different groups of people all (Very loudly and Publicly) bad mouthing our president, bad mouthing our country (the one they live in), protesting against there own country during a time when everyone should be United.

That is called freedom to peaceably assemble to protest against the government. The basic right to have grievances heard. The groups of which you speak have banded together to do that very thing. To my knowledge there is no restriction to the volume of that speech or area that you can protest. It is not only a right it is a responsibility to speak up when you feel something is not right. I see nothing wrong with a group banding together and doing that. Many of these same people had no problem with the war in Afghanistan as the Taliban and al-Qeada (I'm really not sure of the spelling) clearly had a connection to the attacks on us on September 11th 2001. Many who initially supported the war in Iraq as the need was portrayed by the current administration to remove WMD and the maniac Sadam about to unleash them feel betrayed by the President. That is why they speak loudly and in groups and in public about their opposition to the President. That does not mean they are bad mouthing the their country. That's the same as saying 'America love it or leave it'. When you bring public debate on issues like these people can make informed decisions. Not decisions based on fear and ignorance.

quote:Originally posted by KingD
It portrays a weak and Divided image to the countries of the world. If you think that the Terrorist's of the world aren't smiling, laughing and jumping for joy everytime the news media, broadcasts our own citizens protesting our efforts in the Middle East (and the rest of the world), then your very mistaken. Yes! our diversity and differing opinions do make us strong! But in the eyes of the Terrorist's it's a weakness to be exploited and used against us! They all have the same agenda, the same thought going through their evil little minds..."Destroy America and everything we stand for".

If that is how they see us then that is their folly. Many of them have considered us a 'paper tiger'. They perceive weakness and division were there is none. I trully believe the Taliban and al-Qeada didn't think we would do anything. Who cares if they are smiling and laughing and jumping for joy because of the media broadcasts of protests? That is because they do not understand the true nature of our people. That when push comes to shove we will stand together.

By the same token we will tear down those who lie to us and take us to war over false prestense as in Iraq. To date we have found no WMD. Which despite the changes in administrative rehetoric is the main reason we went to war. We also eventually see those who try to keep us in fear. I think that makes us really angry. It is our ability to see these things for what they are is what makes us great. Our desire to find the truth, even when it hurts. Basically, I could careless that terrorists thinks we are weak.

quote:Originally posted by KingD
As for getting support from the rest of the world..LOL....most of the countries in the world are too weak and cowardly to even think about trying to stamp out terrorism! Oh, America you send in 200 thousand troops and we'll match that with 1500 troop, fair trade huh..NOT!!! And don't even bring up the United Nations, that organization is a total joke and a waste! And of course or government makes mistakes, anyone who would think otherwise is a moron!

Then I guess I am not a moron. [:D] I definately know the government makes mistakes. They should be held accountable for those mistakes. When they lie about those mistakes or try to cover them up they should be exposed in the loudest and most public manner possible. It is the lowest form of deceipt to lie to the public that you swore and oath to protect. That makes me sad and angry.

Just so everyone knows, according to an official Pentagon release there are currently over 213,000 men and women on station in and around Iraq. An additional 50,000 are gearing up to deploy there. In Afghanistan we currently have 11,500 troops with a planned increase of 2,000 to 2,200 more in the next few weeks. This will bring the total to around 13,500 or so.

Look at the difference in those numbers. Where is the war on terrorism? Sure there are terrorists in Iraq, but you should never start a second front, if you don't have to (and we didn't) until you have finished the first. Just because military doctrine states we can fight a two front war doesn't mean we should. We should have finished in Afghanistan first. Now there is a country that cries out to be re-built. That country was and still has a chance to be built into a democracy. There is no oil there. So no real interest in finishing what we started there. As long as we can build a pipeline across it, who cares.

You are right, we are one of the biggest countries on the planet. With great size comes great responsibility. Responsibility to the rest of the world, but more importantly to ourselves to be that example of freedom and democracy throughout the world. You do not do that by lying and covering up the truth when it is convienant or if it will bring shame on some people in higher office. That demeans us as a counrty when we do not require our government to be honest and forth right in its dealings with the rest of the world, but especially with it's own people.

I find it interesting that you are touting the efforts of the, as the President has called them, 'the coalition of the willing' to support our efforts in Iraq as 'weak'. They give what they are able and try to help as best they can.

quote:Originally posted by KingD
I am not a Republican and I am not a Democrat, I'm an American!


I am a Democrat and I am pretty sure that most of us here are Americans! Not sure how many folks from across the borders and across the pond grace these forums but you get what I mean. [:D] You got to love a democracy were we all can discuss this as we have so thoroughly. That is about it for me.

King D, I believe firmly that both of us love this country deeply as do all Americans. I also believe that we both firmly support our troops regardless of our feelings about the war in Iraq. So to you I say thank you for the discussion. I have not had a chance to so thoroughly discuss this.

Thanks to you all,
Brian

heh

quote: most of the countries in the world are too weak and cowardly to even think about trying to stamp out terrorism! Oh, America you send in 200 thousand troops and we'll match that with 1500 troop,

quote: I never once mentioned Iraq!!! Re-read my post, I was talking about Terrorism NOT Iraq!

i assumed you were referring to Iraq because you mentioned the number of "200,000 troops" and "stamping out terrorism" in the same breath. Iraq is the only recent military conflict that even remotely fits those criteria.

quote: Go back to every encounter in the past 20 years, were the countries of the world sent troops anywhere for any reason, find the numbers, find the stats..(I won't do the work for you)..America has always sent more troops, while most countries just send a token force.

ok, lets see - lebanon, grenada, panama, iraq pt. 1, somalia, bosnia, haiti, kosovo, then afghanistan and iraq pt. 2 (heh). i might have missed some, but if so i'm sure i can rely on your historical wherewithal to enlighten me.

I'm well aware that America supplied most of the troops to most of those conflicts, but what does that have to do with anything? With the arguable exception of lebanon, none of those conflicts have anything to do with what you'd consider 'terrorism'.

All this shows is a precedent : we aren't afraid to invade and intervene when 'we' feel necessary - not, however, that we have been any more effective at fighting terrorism (pre afghanistan) than anyone else.

quote: And don't try to tell me that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism

Yes and no. As i said somewhere earlier in this thread, my belief is that operation iraqi freedom was a tactical move to westernize a central middle eastern country. Beyond that, Iraq really has nothing to do with terrorism, and if you can prove the contrary i'd love to see you try, because noone else has yet.

quote: if you believe that, then your a Darn fool!

and you're a bag of hot air