As for welfare- best left to Religious organizations than government.
The teaching people how to fish vs. giving them one argument.
Spending more on education referred to public education.
Who wins the spelling or geography bees every year? Homeschooled kids.
Your anecdote fails pretty badly as I knew a few knocked up kids from my highschool days.
All those "what if" arguments don't hold much water.
We are responsible for our own actions. "What if" the terrorists had a change of heart? "What if" Clinton decided to be faithful to his wife... We'll never know.
How about we deal with what we have? Is it the republicans fault all the poor people live in New Orleans? LOL The Dems own Luisiana! What have they done with it? Ah, they blame others instead of taking responsibility.

Oh boy... this has just gone too long.. I guess I just have to get my two cents in. Being a rather well educated conservative, and a bit of a news junkie, I am decently qualified here.....

Number 1 - the War on Terror....
To compare Vietnam and the current Iraq situation is like comparing apples and oranges. During Vietnam we lost approx. 65,000 soldiers, yes. We were fighting with the loosing side in a civil war, supporting a unpopular regime that the locals (South Vietnamese) did not support. Most news documentaries state that approx half of the south vietnamese were sympathetic to the communist north. Big suprise that after the negotiated withdrawl, the north simply invaded and that was it. Now Iraq is quite a different animal. There are approx. 10,000 terrorists (commonly refered to as insergants) that are fighting us, out of a population of approx. 25 million people. If you read the raw polling results, the vast majority of the iraqi people support the actions that we have taken there. (approx 85% ish). You arn't going to find these figures in the popular press here. The goverment of Iraq has been elected by popular vote, and we are in the process of turning over soverignity to the goverment elected by popular vote. Contrary to what you have been led to belive, our morale in Iraq is extremely high, with reenlistment rates at all time highs. In interviews with our troops over there, they are VERY enthusiastic about what we have acomplished in such a short time. If I remember my history correctly, didn't we occupy Germany post WW2 for like 7 years before we turned control over to the germans, and Japan for like 11? And we still have military forces based there, and both countries are consitered some of our most staunchest allies. Interesting.

Number 2.....
About the current 'scandal'... lets see here, lawyers in both the justice department and the white house came up with this program, after being asked 'what can we do within the confines of the law?'. Article 2 of the Constitution (which I belive trumps all laws here, but hey, I could be wrong) states that the President as Comander-in-Chief has the power to wage war. Part of waging war is trying to intercept the communications of the enemy. The guidelines for this program state that one end of the conversation has to be a international call. Umm... if one end is international, by definition, it cannot be 'domestic spying'. Besides, congress has passed resolutions twice stating that the president may combat terrorism in any way he sees fit. Since the constution does not state just what a declaration of war is, the Use of Force resolutions meet the constitutional standard of a declaration of war, and here the President reigns supreme.

3rd...
Would you belive that in New Orleans, there were Goverment backed responder units on the ground within 2 hours? The latest Popular Mechanics has a great article debunking some of the myths of the Katrina disaster. Since I am sure that I will be flamed by someone here, go and read it. I would consiter PM a pretty mainstream publication, and I will assume you will too. They also address the whole evacuation situation. As usual, overblown. Unfortunatly, some people did perish, and ANY ONE DEATH is too much. But, the VAST majority of people that wanted to leave did. Again, don't belive me, but read for yourself.

Next...
As far as the economy goes, all economic indicators show that the economy is humming along. The standard unemployment figure for 'full employment' is 6%. We are at 5%. Are people 'underempoyed'? Sure! You bet! It happens after EVERY recovery. Are we loosing manufaturing? Sure! We are transitioning to a service economy, and we have to compete on the world stage. American workers are the most well paid, and productive workers in the world. We are looked on with envy, and sometimes people hate us for it. Its not our fault! Productivity keeps climbing, and until employment needs exceed the avalible employees, wages won't climb. Simple law of supply and demand. Of course, rising productivity keeps costs down too. Its called supply side economics, and 18 years after Ronald Regan's presidentcy, it has been PROVEN to be what has made our economic situation the ENVY of the world! Any idea what the average unemployment of Europe is? Any ideas? Over 10%!!!! Now, if we had that here, people would be rioting in the streets. Obviously, we have it pretty good here. Could it be better? Sure! I'm all for better economic news. But a horse is still a horse. Just because some people are underemployed dosn't mean that the president sucks. In all reality, the president gets too much credit and too much blame for the economy. It has a lot more to do with the Federal Reserve Bank and congress than it does the President..... So if you arn't happy that buisnesses are shipping jobs oversees, I guess you can blame OSHA, Congress, all state goverments, and every restrictive rule that exists. NO, I am not advocating that we drop enviromental laws, ect. No one that I can think of wants the problems that would develop if we let buisness run free. However, there are consequences to our standard of living, standard of enviromental protection, ect. If I am running a buisness, my goal is to make the most money possible. That is why buisnesses exist. Its not too feel good, its not to provide heath care to people, its to make money. If they can make more money by moving jobs to india, they will. This isn't the President's fault. Its just the nature of the beast.

Ummm..... as far as foreign relations, I can point to the current uproar over those cartoons. You know, it is kind of funny. Europe has tried to bend over backwards to show how 'nice' they are. And now they are being firebombed in the middle east. There is only one rule that applies here. Might makes right. Is it unfortunate? Sure. I know I would like to talk my way out of anything. Unfortunately, most of the rest of the world only respects force. That dosn't mean that I advocate just going to war with anyone, and everyone. But what that does mean is that you do have to have a firm resolve. We have Sadam Hussein 17 UN resolutions over 12 years. One of his top Generals has come out saying that they moved their WMD's to syria. If we would have been a little more firm, this would not have happened. Should we let Iran develop nuclear weapons? What would you have us do? They have publically stated that they want to wipe Israel off the map. Should we just let them? Last time I checked, Israel is a close ally of ours. So far, we have been letting Europe take the lead there. And, yet, nothing. Unless something changes, I can almost guarentee that we will have to strike Iran within 2 years. And everyone will cry foul, publically. But what are you going to do if its President Hillary pushing the button? What are your opinions of Bill bombing yugoslovia from 17000 feet? Oh yea, we still have troops there too. Don't knock Bush just beause he is a Republican. Like it or not, our job as the only Hyperpower (not just superpower, lets be honest here) is to be the worlds policeman. We were isolationists before WW1, and we had to become involved. The league of nations was our idea, but we backed out of it, and became isolationist again. WW2 happened because we were not involved in world politics. Thankfully, America has seen the errors of its ways and we are fully involved in how the world works. If we withdraw and create 'Fortress America', it is just a matter of time before we will be involved in another huge war. How many lives would have been saved if we stopped Hitler when he put troops into the Rhrineland? At leat 6 million jews, and many millions of troops, and many million more Germans. That is a fact.

Lets see here, education...... Last time I checked, the world still sends there top minds to our country to learn. Our education system sure could be better, there is always room for improvement. But our grandparents, if they had a public education, most likely learned up to about 9th grade in a single room school. It wasn't until after WW2 that population centers moved from rual areas to urban centers. College educations? Are you being serious?!??!?! I'm 30. My parents were very proud for me to go to college. How many times has it been said 'I was the first person in my family to go to college!'? And we DO spend more dollars on each student than ever before. But money dosn't just automatically teach! And schools aren't completely responsible for the results either. I know my parents had to behave in school, or there would be hell to pay when they got home. Same for me. But now (I have a few buddies who are teachers, I know first hand) kids are sent to school, and are disrespectful, rude, and are not there to learn. Now adays, there is no respect for school, or teachers, or the education process. How is throwing another 10,000 dollars a year going to help a kid that dosn't want to be there, cuts class all the time, and who's parents don't care if he/she gets educated? The easy answer is its not. 2nd generation kids of Asian decent are rated the highest in performance in our schools. Something tells me that this is a cultural issue, not if the system is working or not.

And I will not say that we don't need welfare. We certainly need some sort of safety net for those people who need it. What most conservative people belive tho is that if people can work, but choose not to, then they are choosing their own fate. I know I don't want to support someone who can take care of themselves. I have no problems at all in giving a hand up, or hell, even a hand out to those who need it. If someone actually NEEDS the help, then hell yea, count me in! But if someone dosn't work because they are too good to have a mcjob, then I don't want to pay them money. It is kind of funny, as soon as unemployment was extended to 39 weeks, the average time it took for someone to find a job and go off of it went up as well. Why would someone go out and find a job and work their tail off when they get free money?!?!??! Lets be honest, not many of us would. Have I ever been poor? It depends on your definition. America's poor would be consitered the elite if you compare them to most of the world. The average poor family owns their home (or paying a mortgage, just like the rest of us), 2 cars, air conditioning, heat, a microwave, fridge, ect, ect ect. Is their house a 5000 square foot estate? No! But if you look at it objectively, our poor are much better off than the rest of the world. Again, for those who NEED the help, they should have it, and I'll be the first in line to hand my taxes over to help. But I get very angry at the thought of someone having my tax dollars while they sit on their Butt if they are capable of getting a job. Most of america has the same feelings!

Seriously, please don't do the name calling thing! We have the right to disagree on this! I am sure that anyone who leans to the left has plenty to say in disagreement, but its not personal! Lets be honest. I know absolutely nothing of anyone's background here, and nobody knows anythign about mine. For all purposes, I could be typing this from the library computer becase I don't have a home, or I could be worth many millions of dollars. We are all entitled to our views, just try not to take it personal and name call. We are a lot better than that!

-Sb

quote:Originally posted by Oso

ROFL baited.
9/11 might have happened, or might not have. It was not inexorable. So you're saying we should allow genocide and slavery around the world because that would be "getting in crap that has nothing to do with us" right?
Hmm increase the military = jobs for people. It's not the economy that drives old people to work at Mcdonalds, it's the fact they didn't plan for their future and ended up relying on Social (in)Security... As for education- we're spending more on education now that we ever have. Perhaps if parents were involved with their kid's education, they wouldn't end up working a McJob. Homeschoolers have to pay for the idiots at public school, and for their own kids. Yet those kids are more successful. It's called personal responsibility- we shouldn't need to rely on the government for anything not mentioned in the Constitution.



ACtually your wrong, When Bush came to office we were at are peek in Education spending.. Since Bush has cut Education 3 times to add more in the millitary. As far as Millitary creating jobs, we don't need it, we are under 5% unemployment that is hella low, you figure 3 percent of your work for population don't want to work, and at least 2% of the workforce you would never think of hire, worse then trailor trash...

As for the Baby boomers relying on SS, it would help if the curropted corporations of the RICH wouldn't eliminate all the money that people put in pension plans. Over the last 10 years over 1 million people across the united states lost every dime they had in there "guarenteed" pension plan. Now thier 60 with a few years left to work, no way they gonna save money for retirement now... They already did once... And no thats not all of the baby boomers alot of them did just say wtf I can live off of ss

Unemployment figures are measured by people who are actively looking for work.
If they are sitting at home not looking for a job, then they aren't counted.

VOTE FOR PEDRO

Heh Oso so much for no one talking about politics eh? All I want everyone to know is that Bush and alot of Republicans have NO perspective on why medicaid and welfare and other programs for the poor are so important. I grew up in a dirt poor family, my mom and dads fault? Hell yes, but should I have to suffer for my parents mistakes? The young should not have to suffer for their junky moms and dads, or their lazy Butt parents, they should be given free medical benfits, FULL medical benifits, and what ever else they need to get by.

Some of you just dont know how hard it is to be poor, and to try to rise up from it. Taking care of my little brother, working FULL time, and going to school full time? You have no idea what my lousy little 10k salary a year means. I HAVE no medical benifts, havent been to the doctor or dentist in 3 years, I just cant afford it. Living pay check to pay check. ITs a stupid situation. And Bush is cutting medicare and welfare more and more...

Can anyone tell me that poor childern deserve to suffer?

Ender, you may be right and you may be wrong about all of that stuff.. i really dont know.. the one thing i do know is you are not at all credible so even if you do speak some truth your obvious one sided bias lends no faith that you are credible.. especially when you have cited Al Jazeera in the past as your source lol. Must suck being a staunch liberal in Georgia laff.

Sigh...let me tell you a story. I was in Italy last summer and met a lady from New York. We argued a bit about politics and it went from a polite discussion and when she ran out of things to back up her claims she resorted to cussing at me. Typical liberal and btw, was that you?

As for beating me up let me give you a quick rundown of my schedule. I live in Lubbock, Texas and will be traveling to Austin from March 8-12. I will then drive to Vegas from March 14-19. I will then fly to Vegas on May 26-29. I plan on going to Russia to adopt two children sometime hopefully before June and will take two trips over to the Motherland. Any of those close to you? I am 6'4" 230 pounds and in pretty good physical shape so I feel fairly confident that there arent many liberal fairies that can whip me.

War on Terror - Proof: You stated it yourself. 65k compared to 2,300. You do the math. We lost Vietnam because our bombing campaign was cut short by a democratic controlled congress. Do the research.

Supreme Court - I dont understand what you are upset about. He followed the law and by a large margin his choices were approved. Next?

Domestic Spying - Harry Reid the other day came out and said he agrees with Bush and has no problem with the program because it helps keep America safe. Next?

FEMA - If it affected other states so badly why dont we read about their mayors blaming the government? Other states were prepared and evacuated their poor. Do you know, Mr. Research, that Nagin sent out word to the poorest neighborhoods in NO telling them to stay put and the city would come and get them? Did he fulfill that promise? Nyet. I lay the blame where it belongs, not on the party I dislike. Look up figures for how much Federal money is given to Louisiana and let me know where that all goes. They have THE MOST CORRUPT STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS IN THE NATION. Any questions?

As for spell check my point was before you belittle someone at least check to make sure you are doing it the right way. Otherwise it makes you look, well, 19.

Economy - You cant argue with statistics. Venture out and get some hard data from non partisan places and you will understand that we are doing fine in spite of all the negative happenings. BTW, more African-Americans own homes now than ever before. So much for slick being the first black president.

So now we get to the bottom of your contempt for Republicans. You are poor and want a handout so you blame us for taking that away from you. I have known many people in my lifetime who work full time jobs and still go to school. BTW, if you are "poor" and in school and have any brains I would place a wager that I am paying for that too. Some people are less fortunate than others and that is sad, but it will always be that way. Get an education and better yourself. It is possible for anyone in this great country.

Socialized medicine doesnt work. Can you imagine how many of our brightest people would go into the medical field if the government decided how much money they would make? Smart people become doctors because they are well-compensated. That would end if we had socialized health care. Look at Canada and read the newspapers, even the liberal ones, and see the trouble they are in with their health care. Some women become pregnant and cant see a doctor for 3 months. No thanks.

When the poor realize they can vote themselves handouts from the government we will cease to be a great nation. If you were a true historian you can trace the rise and fall of most of the great empires in history and see that the problems began when the government started to be overwhelmed by the demands of the poor. Do some research.

Our test scores have steadily risen over the past 10 years in my city. That even includes the schools that are classified as economically disadvantaged. Next?

As for being poor...I lived on $500 a month for the last 3 years of my college years. That includes rent and everything else. I bummed rides with friends, I couldnt afford the internet, and most nights I went to bed hungry. You know who I blamed? Myself.

Now think up some new and exciting cuss words to call me in your next post because thus far you are about 0fer in the proving points department and most times when libs get desperate they turn to insults instead of facts.

BTW, I know it isnt your fault that you feel the way you do. Most college professors are closet communists/socialists that indoctrinate their students into believing things that arent true about the real world. You will grow out of it, but it takes time.

Damnit Bones,

Just fix it already! NEXT lol... jp bro

how bout we VOTE FOR PEDRO?

I'd love to be able to argue with Bone or Ender on the points I truly feel affect me... but I cannot, for the most part anyways.

Bone is right on the Canadian Health care issue, but not wholly..... It is true that our Canadian system of socialism has failed. But only because it was taken to an extreme by outside forces(see higher wage offerings in the rest of the world) and by our own special interest groups. We would not be in this state if we had followed the Swiss and Finnish examples and gone to a two tiered system.

But anyways, on the whole I agree with both of you. But yet I cannnot side with either... You know why???

Because I am a true Liberal. Neither the theocratic musings of the Conservative party or the socialist views of the "liberal" Democratic party of your country fall in either of these viewsets in the remainder of the world..... My point really being:

That no two parties can effectively embody the whole of your "melting pot" society, and that both sides should split up(as the rest of the truly "democratic societies" have) and realise that they need a much broader view from the representatives that guide your society.

If you want fair representation from either side, you need to embrace more of the middle views than the current agenda of streaking to the far right and left to sway the media at whatever time feels appropriate.

Neither of you are wrong. The weak should not be given a free handout, because they will just abuse and destroy the ability of the handout. But neither should the handout be refused from the get-go just because some poor fool could not take care of themselves.

I'm not sure there is an answer to this battle, only a constant struggle. But I will always strive for the middle ground, because that is where true equality will be reached: When each side realises that neither can be whole without the other, then we shall see a fair and reasonable government in your country.

Oh, and dont vote for pedro.

I wish we had a parliamentary system instead of our current setup.
That would allow 3rd parties to have a better chance.
Don't you feel better represented Silence? You have so many choices (including my Fav, the Bloq)

well Oso kinda stole my fuel that I was gonna use. There IS another choice, but no one thinks that it will work, or would give it a shot. VOTE THIRD PARTY. For the last two elections, I have done this, and have felt that I voted for what I really want. Now, the guy I voted for last election finished in 5th...but at least I didn't have to sell all my morals by voting the Republican ticket. I'm a conservitive, and I hold to true Constitutional values...a palimentary system however would not make it any easier I think in the country. The Media is too intrenched in what the overwelming ignorant American population hears and believes.

Anyways, VOTE CONSTITUTION PARTY. http://www.constitutionparty.com To add a plug to this, the main areas of the parties platform are
Constitution Party Platform

Abolish All Income Taxes
Get the U.S. out of the U.N
Get the U.N. out of the U.S
Withdraw from NAFTA, GATT, the IMF
Withdraw from the WTO & the World Bank
Deport Illegal Aliens & Protect Our Borders
Ban "Sodomy-based" Marriage
Restore the Second Amendment
Restore the Ten Commandments
Abolish the Department of Education
End All Federal Funding of Local Education
End "Legal" Abortion
Refuse to Enforce Federal Gun Control laws that infringe on the Right to Keep & Bear Arms

Wow. I definately can't support THAT political party.

1. I believe taxes are neccessary to provide for the defense and common good of a nation, a "sales tax" system would not provide enough revenue without seriously effecting sales.

2. Without world intervention we are nothing more than a backseat driver in world affairs. I agree w/ the above statement(s) by BC that as the world's only hyperpower we have a duty to remain involved. While the UN may not be perfect, atleast it's a place people can talk before they start to shoot.

3. World trade agreements are a mixed bag, world trade organizations too. Not sure I'm ready give up the benefits considering that it does help to insure #2.

4. While you're at it deport everyone that isn't a native American. We're all illegal aliens according to someone's law.

5. Live and let live. If someone else's marriage isn't bothering me, why should I ban it? I gotta wonder who in the world worries so much about OTHER PEOPLE's gay marriage that they would go to this extreme. Methinks there's a bit of closet-queerdom coming from the leaders of that party.

6. It's alive and well. What about the first amendment? What if my free speech violates the 10 commandments? (see next)

7. This is not a Christian country. It's a seculary country. The founding fathers were not particularly Christian, rather deist masons with a strong belief in the need for secular independance. Seperation of church and state has continued to prove itself time and time again. And I for one am very very glad I don't live in a funde nation. Remind me to tell you the dinosaur story sometime.

8. Uhhh. Ok, so eliminate all federal funding of education? Wow. Thats what we need, a bunch of relgiously-indoctrinated youngins w/ no formal education in the arts and sciences. I have yet to meet a home-schooled individual that can explain the difference between fermions and bosons or even pass a basic calculus test. Or discuss the philosophical implications of Pascal's wager on religion or the meaning of early philosophy on theology. Stuff my friends and I could do by 11th grade.

9. What about in cases of rape and incest? Or in cases of medical complications? Abortion may seem "wrong" to some... but who are we to judge the actions of another when our own are imperfect? I find it funny that people want to re-instate the 10 commandments when Christ himself wasn't a particular fan of them. What with the pharisees and 2 great commandments and all that.

10. And if some crazy guy gets ahold of a gun and mows down a TV studio full of people (which happened 2 miles from where I used to live)? Some guns laws are reasonable.. people w/ a history of violent mental illness should not have guns. If you're not someone w/ a violent history (or criminal history) and want to have a gun... fine, but there's nothing wrong w/ requiring some training or licensing. We require driver's licenses and cars don't kill when used as directed.

The idea of a bunch of religion fundes packing heat, shooting everyone that doesn't follow their ignorant version of the 10 commandments is absolutely terrifying. Folks, I will not be supporting the constitution party.. which is ironically named since the constitution itself would not support the constitution party.

coke have you ever lived in a state with no income tax? let me demonstrate...

$44 to put your car on the road in New York state, good for 2 years

$3000 to put your car on the road in New Hampshire, good for 1 year

which state doesnt have the income tax?