First, I think the problem was more because that was TCW2 and the edits for that particular game came from TCW1 and were written by a respected sysop/player'.

Second, as far as what K3 says, it's a fact that he's been around a long time and has shown that he knows his stuff. You cannot fault his game knowledge.

maggie

Yes, because what is said is nowhere near as important as who is saying it. The cliques here remind me of high school.

quote:Originally posted by Xentropy

Yes, because what is said is nowhere near as important as who is saying it. The cliques here remind me of high school.


If I remember correctly your argument about the TCW edits was more to the tune of it will not last longer then a week, that the size of the teams were to large, and the cash potential was to high to last longer then a week. Then like always the discussion turns to twitch wars and how us script users ruined the game. I don’t remember reading anything about how the games people seem to like to play are all basically the same style of edit.

quote:
when Kemper says it, he's a god and totally right.

I'm glad people are finally coming around

In all seriousness though, for that particular game, I think those were good edits. With the large corps of a lot of newer players, I think it's a good thing to have somewhat standard edits. And as speed demon pointed out, the specific critisisms you made were somewhat off base, as shown by how the game played out. However, other edits may have made for just as enjoyable of a game. I personally would like to see some really weird edits, things like non-mbbs, 120% steal, 10% rob or a universe with all one-way warps.

If you don't remember me saying it, I'll illuminate you on WHY I said the game wouldn't last long.

The way the game was edited was to take basically stock, with all the same strategies as every other game most of you ever play, and ENHANCE those strategies so that they had the POTENTIAL to make a lot more credits per turn. I overestimated the average skill level of the game; if 3/4 of each team logged on every day and knew what they were doing it would've been over quickly. Even with that, I still wasn't that far off-base, since from what Psion says the game was basically over after Kemper's corp had 90% grid coverage after just one week. If it took a couple more weeks on top of that to play cleanup, that barely counts as a game.

That said, Kemper's right in the previous post. I had somewhat misunderstood the target audience and overestimated the size of the community; I thought if you got all the good players together you might have a game of 75 people. For a game that was designed to bring in so many low-skill people to teach them how to play in a tournament setting, it was a good idea using edits like that.

However, for the folks who have iterated the same strategies day in and day out for several years, I'd think you'd want to stretch your legs a bit and play some different edits. The kinds of edits I'd like to see (and the kinds I put into play when I work on some) are ones that change the winning strategies instead of just enhancing existing ones. My idea of a good game of TradeWars is one in which I have to come up with a new strategy every single time. Not just pick variation C of the same theme lifted straight off of Traitor's website.

If it takes Kemper instead of me saying it to start a new trend, so be it. It'll be interesting to see the change, whatever its catalyst.

xentropy, I'm not a member of a clique. lol

K3 can tell you that I disagree with him about some things, but they don't come under the category of game knowledge because I'd be foolish not to listen to what he says on the subject.

As for variety in games, I agree with you on that one. The main reason I move around so much is that it bores me to have all things the same every game.
maggie

lol

quote:Originally posted by Xentropy

If you don't remember me saying it, I'll illuminate you on WHY I said the game wouldn't last long.


I completely remember what you posted on the subject I’m not trying to argue with you just point out that the basis of your argument in that thread was the game would not last longer then a week.

quote:Originally posted by Xentropy

The way the game was edited was to take basically stock, with all the same strategies as every other game most of you ever play, and ENHANCE those strategies so that they had the POTENTIAL to make a lot more credits per turn. I overestimated the average skill level of the game; if 3/4 of each team logged on every day and knew what they were doing it would've been over quickly. Even with that, I still wasn't that far off-base, since from what Psion says the game was basically over after Kemper's corp had 90% grid coverage after just one week. If it took a couple more weeks on top of that to play cleanup, that barely counts as a game.

Ok, I have played these style of edits against some of the best players I have ever met in this game very few of these games lasted under a week even against me who compared to many of these players I suck.

We did not have 90% grid until week number 3 and it only took us 3 or 4 days to play clean up I was there.

I’m also confused in a stock style MBBS game your going to make the same number of credits per turn no mater what size the corp. or what edits are being used it’s the number of turns your team uses per day cashing and the MCIC’s of the ports you use that will increases the amount of credits the team will make overall if team one runs 3000 turns cashing per day and team number 2 runs 5000 guess who going to make more cash per day.

Yea, this game was basically designed to get new players involved in higher-level games we were trying to get some competition going in the community it gets boring showing up to a turnney and finding that there’s only one other corp. willing to compete.

quote:Originally posted by Xentropy

That said, Kemper's right in the previous post. I had somewhat misunderstood the target audience and overestimated the size of the community; I thought if you got all the good players together you might have a game of 75 people. For a game that was designed to bring in so many low-skill people to teach them how to play in a tournament setting, it was a good idea using edits like that.

The thing is there is only a handful of “good players” or “elites” anymore they have all mostly moved on the different interests I would say the majority of players now days fall in the intermediate and new player category.

quote:Originally posted by Xentropy

However, for the folks who have iterated the same strategies day in and day out for several years, I'd think you'd want to stretch your legs a bit and play some different edits. The kinds of edits I'd like to see (and the kinds I put into play when I work on some) are ones that change the winning strategies instead of just enhancing existing ones. My idea of a good game of TradeWars is one in which I have to come up with a new strategy every single time. Not just pick variation C of the same theme lifted straight off of Traitor's website.

I agree to a point not everyone is willing to play by hand in a ship delay game but yea some off us need to get out and explorer a little more including myself and I don’t think I would be to far off base saying the same about you.

Most tournament style games are the standard MBBS settings so yea people are going to practice the settings that they will end up playing in the turnneys.

quote:Originally posted by Xentropy

If it takes Kemper instead of me saying it to start a new trend, so be it. It'll be interesting to see the change, whatever its catalyst.


The only problem I have with this last quote is you have never said that until now as far as I know.

I would love to see you release a set of edits or host a game that would take some new strategies to play no better then that I challenge you do so.

Now to move on from this discussion and do something about it, oh yea and let poor Nacon4 have his thread back sorry that this got high jacked Nacon4.

The problem with the sort of edits you are talking about, no one shows up to play em. I've got one or two like that in my collection, and they get no play. Be my guest, make some and we'll try em out.

"Oh, and I totally agree with what K3 said. Lazy, spoiled rotten kids. Just want every cred handed to them on a freaking silver platter. It's all ME ME ME... Is there a script for that? Can I have your scripts? Bah! Brats never had to work for a credit a day in their lives."

traitor, shut up and go make me money


now... as kemper3's idol, i feel obligated to post here.

a while back i made a game to basically make scripts a moot point.
guess how many people played it.
about 4.
guess how many are great scripters.
3.
guess what strategy they used in the game.
the same one you use every game.
the point IS to make as many credits per turn.
this game is 100% math.
those of us who know the game formulas, will always, no matter what is changed in the edits, beat those who don't
Xen, you said:
"The edits everyone always uses just accentuate the same old methods of cashing; making them more profitable per turn, and making any alternative methods even less useful and less likely to be used. I'd like to see edits at some point that make people think, instead of just letting them use the same strategy every single game."

well, there are not that many viable methods of cashing in this game.
lets make it easy and say there are 10.
one of them, will ALWAYS be superior to the other 9.
it is hard numbers. you can't argue them, and barring being JP, you can't change them.
and the great thing is, even if the #'s did change, the formulas would remain the same.
the problem you are having is this.
you join a game.
you see everyone doing the same thing.
they are doing the same thing because if they dont, they will lose.
if you join a game with 100% planet nego, steal from buy, etc.. and instead of mega/ptrade u are ssting... you will lose.
if you are going around ppting in an unlim while others are wssting... you will lose.
if it is "crazy" edits that make planet trading worthless, and stealing worthless... well people will all have farm planets set up to ptrade.
no matter what you do, atleast 50% of the community can look at the edits and will tell you the best way of cashing and why.
you are not appearantly part of this 50% so you get mad at the rest of us.
there is no physical way to make it so you stand a chance against someone like K3.
it's pure numbers, and the only way to compete, is to learn them.
sure, you can play this game or that game, but as long as you play A game, and see how the numbers work, you should be able to logically conclude how they work in different situations.
i know that in english, six comes after five.
i don't speak much german.
but i know that sechs comes after funf.
its math.
it will stay the same forever.
i have X + Y = 18
you can change X or Y, but no matter what you do, they will always equal 18.
/end rant

I'm "one of those 50%" as you put it, but the only games I ever see you people play use 100% nego, MBBS mode on, which means SDT until you have a mobile to megarob. That's it. There's never another answer to the "what's the best cashing method?" question.

Last I saw, if MBBS mode is turned off or ptrade is >gasp< below 100%, no one will even show up to play the game, so the other 8 cashing methods (if there are even that many) are rendered moot. That's all I'm saying.

Yes it's a formulas game, yes it's a numbers game, but when the settings are the same EVERY FREAKING TIME you don't even need formulas. You don't even need a lookup table--not one with more than one entry, anyway.

quote:Originally posted by Xentropy

I overestimated the average skill level of the game; if 3/4 of each team logged on every day and knew what they were doing it would've been over quickly.


Had the average skill level been higher, the game would have lasted more time, not less. It's dependant on the difference in skill levels between corps as to how long a game will last, most of the time.

Talking about edits, but there's also the larger factor of newbs like me.
It's hard to find people that can take you thru the most intricate details
of stuff like cashing. I spent a week trying to figure out exactly how to
time planet trades on a 70% ptrade to max cash. Has taken yet another month
to make it reality given that 40% of the team hasn't even figured out buydown.

I don't know of 8 different methods, nor how they fit into the larger picture.
(Ie: what settings make them effective, which ones don't, when they're best
used, what I need to do to get them going, etc). PPT, SSM, SDT, SST and ptrading...
That's about all I've ever done. If you, or anyone, would care to explain...
create a write-up, whatever. I (and the many newbs like me) would be most
appreciative. If not, I do understand... you don't need the competition. But
it's hard to hear people complaining about the lack of "skill" when very few
people bother to share such skills and there's a constant turn-over of players.

Reading the glossary on tw-cabal there's several things I've never done (SSF?!)
and can't even imagine a use for these days.

u are starting in the correct place.
read tw-cabal
after that, get into games with good players (on your corp, and on opposing corps) and just spend a buncha time at keys watching and learning.

I know with me personally the reason I don't make writeups on how to do stuff isn't because I want some advantage, it's just because I'm too lazy to take the time It takes hours to do a detailed walkthrough on a fairly limited area. As you increase the possible outcomes and difficulties that may arise, the time needed increases exponentially. To truly become a great player, though, you have to do it, not have someone hold your hand all the time. I'm not saying that having someone teach you and help you out is a bad thing, but no one ever did that for me and it seemed to work out pretty well.

I agree with Kemper and Slim on their points of the game, as well as Speed, oh yeah, Speed if you still want to make those edits, I will be glad to host them. I ain't afraid to try some new things and who knows they might catch on, ICQ me and let me know.