it has NOTHING to do with scripts.
it's the win or die attitude. kill all in my way in the name of the game!
ef that, get a life, get laid, or for christ sakes, go see the sun.

but, since you insist on *****ing about scripts oso, how is THIS for your tiny brain:
Can you, or anyone else here, compete in tradewars withOUT TWX.
would it be fair, say, for Xide to have put backdoors into TWX so he could boot you offline whenever he wanted? Did Xide ever, when he found a bug in TWX, go into games and abuse it? NO. it's called ethical behavior.
now, on YOUR turn, do this
argue what i have laid before you.
don't weasel yourself into some asinine tangeant, just answer the question posed to you.

You do recall Slim that Xide also specifically set out to 'stop' one of his own scripts. He set up ways to stop it. Single also found a hole in a script, and posted a solution to said problem.

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

it has NOTHING to do with scripts.
it's the win or die attitude. kill all in my way in the name of the game!
ef that, get a life, get laid, or for christ sakes, go see the sun.

but, since you insist on *****ing about scripts oso, how is THIS for your tiny brain:
Can you, or anyone else here, compete in tradewars withOUT TWX.
I absolutly could play the game with out twx..or Swath or attac or twar for windows...Ofcourse you would need some type of terminal program but i could play TW effectively with just about any standard telnet program ..i could even play with the standard dos telnet window from internet explorer..but i wouldnt be as effective.

would it be fair, say, for Xide to have put backdoors into TWX so he could boot you offline whenever he wanted? If i PAID for TWX (and i did) Then no it wouldnt be fair..If he gave it to me for free..i would have to use at my own risk..i wouldnt like it if he did that to me even if i was using it for free..However if he gave it to me and told me to use it only in a particular game or never against him..and i did..and he did some backdoor trick to shut it down or cause my tw character harm...Then i deserved it


Did Xide ever, when he found a bug in TWX, go into games and abuse it?
No he wouldnt ..But i dont think it would be above him to mess with other people's scripts in an attempt to gain an advantage..I dont specifically recall an actual event BUT It wouldnt of bothered me had he tried to Spoof Some ones script.


NO. it's called ethical behavior.
now, on YOUR turn, do this
argue what i have laid before you.
don't weasel yourself into some asinine tangeant, just answer the question posed to you.


Your argument slim panders to my strengths..I would love to have people not even think about spoofing my scripts..If i could count on that in its entirety it would be ideal for me..We know that tricking other peoples scripts isnt nice....i cant go as far as to say unethical ..but perhaps it could be unethical depending on its severity ..

Slim, even your "tiny brain" might have noticed that we weren't talking about backdoors. We were talking about taking advantage of poorly written scripts "spoofing scripts" is what speedy called it. Is it unethical to rip off scripts? Or is it only unethical if someone uses a weakness in said script to cause you to end up in a pod or worse?

Kaus, yes it happens sometimes just like prom mentions. While trying to protect a grid, it will cost some newbie his ship.
The newbie has to be more watchful of the type of game he's gotten himself into. If he looks at the game stats and sees that there are 100 planets in the game with a 99% citadel population, he might want to give it a miss.

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

it has NOTHING to do with scripts.
it's the win or die attitude. kill all in my way in the name of the game!
ef that, get a life, get laid, or for christ sakes, go see the sun.


Sorry I missed this while sorting through the rest of your rubbish.
In response to that, I have to add: ROFL
When do people play a game not wanting to win?
It has everything to do with the desire to win!
The nature of the game is such that you have to kill everyone to win.
If the object of the game was to be the only person NOT to have killed someone (TradePeace 2002, coming to a BBS near you) then you'd be amazed at the lack of podding! You'd buy flowers instead of figs, and songs instead of shields. But until that mod is made, we're going to have to stick with what we know. BOOM! You're podded, mate.

Heh. I've had the opportunity over the last few days to review past posts regarding this and similar topics. It's interesting to note that most of them were resolved without ever getting to personal assaults or assaults on character. I find it sad that the current crop of posters are so quick to make personal assaults. I never quite realized the degree of difference until recently.

Do remember, Slim, that Oz did similar in USO. He didn't go around CBYing everyone he ran into, but he still tested it on a live game. The result was a bugfix, which got released later because it was a public script. A private script with the same issue will get a bugfix, it'll just go out to a private list.

Infact I'd venture a guess that quite a number of scripts that you (and others) use have been tested in live-fire games against live-fire spoofing. You were probably not apart of that testing, not being a scripter, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Could I (personally) live w/o TWX? Sure, I'd just be using a different helper. Which is the alternative that exists for scripts. I'd probably be writing in Rexx instead.

Nobody's claiming that this is a nice thing to do. The argument against it usually goes. "Hey, in [insert some sport here] if you did [sports-related thing] would that be ethical?" Not only is that analogy absurd, but it can be applied in the other direction too. In boxing you have the rules, ie: no hitting below the belt, and then you have weaknesses like a glass jaw.

Given that server rules don't make script spoofs against the rules, it's like hitting someone with a weak jaw. You know that one good hit and they're going to back off for a few. Will it win the fight? Probably not. But it forces people to train harder.

Ok, truth is... it's not boxing, it's not hockey, it's an ANSI text game. It's not a sport, it's a game. Play spades? Ever tried to break the opponent's nil? Play hearts, pass the queen of spades to the right and know you can force them to eat it? Play chess? Ever find a hole in your opponent's opening or allow the other side to hang their queen by mistake?

Sure, all of those things may be mean but they're not unethical. They're within the bounds of accepted play. They're ruthless, but so's just about everything in life. Stop expecting your opponents to play nice. I more or less agree w/ K3's position on it: If you're too lazy to learn how to check your own stuff then don't be suprised if it hits you. And karma being what it is, someday it will probably hit me. I'm cool with that, I'll just fix my stuff and move along.

You see every game has it's own unique set of standards or "ethics" that may be applied. The ones you apply to TW are not ones I would apply to TW. Infact I would apply the inverse. I play because I enjoy the competition, if I wanted to watch my planets build I'd just go watch TV instead. If a player comes with less than their best I consider it an insult.

So where do you draw the line with all of this?

We rapidly approach a slippery-slope here if we're not careful. If I know a script mishandles a particular trigger is that abuse? What if I know that a script won't attack a particular ship name? Is that? What if I know that a torper will fire at everything that moves, so I surround fed to waste fuel and burn torps? What if I know that your citkilla will attack anything it sees, so I go in with something that has better defensive odds? What if I know you only torp one particular way so I change my pattern to avoid it? What if I know your torper always lands in the first door and I take advantage of that?

Where do you draw the line? Specifically at triggers? What about timing? If I know your script or macro lifts on timing is it wrong to pre-lock and fire on a timer? What about any scripted behaviour at all?

Some people make the argument that this is bad for new players. I disagree completely. I do not want any player to think they should expect game welfare from other players. That's what leads to people crying about "unfair play." I think that is far worse "for the game" than any amount of script hosing.

Some games are "for fun," true. But not all are. Some are designed to be hard and fast, win or die. Why? Because some of us consider a heated, intense, battle of wills to be fun. Some of us enjoy the challenge and the chance to explore new things. Some of us consider winning to be fun, and losing to be... not fun. So "just have fun" translates directly into "win or else."

But if you're not in the mood for a win or die game then don't play one. Nobody forces you to join a tourny. Personally, I think win or die is a much better attitude for a game than "just have fun." If all I wanted was to "have fun" I'd go to an amusement park with my family or a ballgame or go see a movie with someone special. I certainly wouldn't be sitting by myself playing 20 year old ANSI text game to just "have fun."

Sing: eloquent as always.

i bet he tastes good to eh oso?
oz did a lot of **** in game i didn't agree with and he knew it.

quote: the object of the game was to be the only person NOT to have killed someone (TradePeace 2002, coming to a BBS near you)

and thank you for proving my point.

I think what is being missed here is the most important issue in this whole controversy. But first off the calling an open discussion with people whom may have dissenting ideas other than your own whining, does nothing to contribute to the debate and IMHO somewhat, dare I say childish?

Now to the REAL isssue here....Spoofing of poorly written scripts or not fully developed ones is only part of the ethics issue here. The spoofing of a script is viable strategy, esp attack scripts ran AFK. Spoofing has been done as long as I have played the game. Spoofing a script w/o spamming someone SHOULD be allowed, maybe encouraged. If nothing else that person will learn not run afk attack scripts or alert the scripter that a fix or patch is needed he might not be aware of.

But, when that spoofing involves the use of SPAMMING fed com or the SPAMMING of private hails, THATS what I feel wrong. SPAMMING is a frowned upon tactic and in many instances against the rules of most reputiable servers. And SPAMMING is lame in tradewars just as it is in the use of emails for unwanted advertising.

And another thought might be...well if u have to resort to tricks to defeat an opponent, or duping or mega-corping maybe you just need better corpies or learn better tactics, heh.

Just my .02 worth from a non-scripter.

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

it has NOTHING to do with scripts.
it's the win or die attitude. kill all in my way in the name of the game!
ef that, get a life, get laid, or for christ sakes, go see the sun.

but, since you insist on *****ing about scripts oso, how is THIS for your tiny brain:
Can you, or anyone else here, compete in tradewars withOUT TWX.
would it be fair, say, for Xide to have put backdoors into TWX so he could boot you offline whenever he wanted? Did Xide ever, when he found a bug in TWX, go into games and abuse it? NO. it's called ethical behavior.
now, on YOUR turn, do this
argue what i have laid before you.
don't weasel yourself into some asinine tangeant, just answer the question posed to you.


You are getting the same rep as ReXX. Lurker. Suggest play a game.

If a script writer leaves an Easter Egg embedded, and a dumb scripter uses the script (worse if it's not compiled/encrypted) shrug.

If you use 3rd party scripts, accept whatever you get "as is". Dislike that? Write your own.

I will say this about Kav's last post....

Any scripter leaving "easter eggs" in scripts is unethical and down right LAME! And its a bull*** tactic to use. If you write a script and are "worried" that someone who is NOT supposed to have it, timelock em or have the script look for a list of "approved" users.

No need to resort to the lowest common denominator to win ANYTHING in life. It reminds me of a poster I saw long ago called "Everything I needed to learn in life, I learned in kindergarten" One of the lessons that should have been learned is what is called "FAIR PLAY"

IMHO, a big problem with our world today is the lack of ethics in not only Tradewars, but in the "real world" in general.

But alas, I guess some people are just destined to be scum!!

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

it has NOTHING to do with scripts.
it's the win or die attitude. kill all in my way in the name of the game!
ef that, get a life, get laid, or for christ sakes, go see the sun.


Said the World of Warcraft end game raider. Nothing personal Slim, I just found it funny.

My examples werent meant to show spotlight on newbies or people like me relearning. Bottomline In this individuals opinion IF someone decides to use someones elses script specifically if its not meant to be public and they get caught up in some b.s. cby or otherwise trigger then They deserved it.
Being a beginner scripter and haveing the privilage to see some of the private scripts out there alls I can think is if it was me I'd do the same thing. While I'm sure Sing,ETC can all whittle out scripts at there desire I know for a fact it takes time to perfect one; sometimes at the expense of hours and hundreds of lines of code. And should that same person give a script to someone in confidence with the expressed desire to NOT have it go public and it does well to Me thats worse than any spoof outside of spamming words to set off a textlinetrigger,waitfor or whatever. Mind you that Sing didnt need to do that since HE wrote it and knew the specfic word or trigger that would cause the degradation of the script.

Is it ethical to start namecalling in the forums?
I agree with Uncle Sam to an extent. I guess what I was trying to say is if someone leaves a way to defeat his own script written into the code in case someone used it against him, I think that's smart. If he gives the script away with the purpose of exploiting the script, that's wrong.
The only way to ensure you have a script that will do only what you want it to do, is to write it yourself. I don't write (yet) so if I'm using a public script, I am at the mercy of the writer.
Slim had one point I can agree with. The purpose of this game is to win. I win (or loose) by playing with corpies I trust, scripts I trust, and try not to cross any lines drawn in the sand that I wouldn't appreciate if someone did to me.

Oh, and Slim, Thanks for pointing out my tiny brain, I guess I need to start learning more in order to make it bigger!

Ok...note to self....ANOTHER person, kaus, added to the "Do not corp list"

quote:Originally posted by Oso

I see it as it requires people who mooch scripts (like myself) to be careful when using them. If I am AFK and end up photoning my corpie (apologies to SG) because he cleaned on a personal limp and my script nailed him, then I deserve the Butt chewing that is to come. If I trust the scripting power of others out there who generously feed the leachers at grimy (I am one of those leachers), then it's my own damned fault if a script blows up on me and sends me zooming across the universe. Do I have a right to whine if I forgot to turn off SWATH's autohaggle and tried to worldSSM? Should I blame it on the script writer, saying that they should have done something to make it "idiot proof"?. If you get something for free, don't complain if it doesn't work right or if it gets you killed. When scripts are released at grimy in the .TS form, I can bet that there is at least one person who downloads the scripts and starts to pick it apart. You have script, counter-script in Tradewars. So the next logical evolution is something to defeat the script itself, not just counter it.



**** i think everyone has done that OSO:]