Ok FC u are really starting to worry me!! [:X] hehe j/k

Ok, so the Red just needs to refurbish their ships holds, but can use the same ship; so the only thing I can think of now that this would serve to better the Reds tactic would be if the ship exchange would be faster then the Furbing process? Such as rather then having the Blue bring in a new ship for the Red use as a Furb, just have the Blue swap ships with the Red each time Bwarp and Port at the nearest/safest Class 0/9 and restock the Holds and then Twarp back and wait for the Red to Bust, then repeat.

It does seem that this might shave off time by cutting down on total number of actions per cycle. Thus, it would make the cashing process faster, but would use the same number of turns, (as attacking uses 0 turns to perform, regardless) and the Blue would best serve the task of Furbing for the Red; although using the planets Bwarp would cut down on the number of the turns required per cycle for the Blue, increase the speed, and as well would provide safety for the players involved in the cashing. I am thinking there are some benefits to it (having the planets in-sector and using the Citadel to ship-swap rather then attacking the Furb or Xporting into the Furb.)

As an additional thought, would this not also save the Blue turns (by reducing the additional turns involved in towing?) as well as reduce overall spending (by restocking the same set of ships over and over, rather then purchasing a new Furb once the other is out of Holds or has been destroyed?)

Thank ya! Graz and Vulcan, I appreciate the kudo's! Also, thanks Sing, Sing [:P] for working in your vast and godlike knowledge of the game! (ok, maybe that was just a bit overdone? ...oh well, haha)

Ok, so the Red just needs to refurbish their ships holds, but can use the same ship; so the only thing I can think of now that this would serve to better the Reds tactic would be if the ship exchange would be faster then the Furbing process? Such as rather then having the Blue bring in a new ship for the Red use as a Furb, just have the Blue swap ships with the Red each time Bwarp and Port at the nearest/safest Class 0/9 and restock the Holds and then Twarp back and wait for the Red to Bust, then repeat.

It does seem that this might shave off time by cutting down on total number of actions per cycle. Thus, it would make the cashing process faster, but would use the same number of turns, (as attacking uses 0 turns to perform, regardless) and the Blue would best serve the task of Furbing for the Red; although using the planets Bwarp would cut down on the number of the turns required per cycle for the Blue, increase the speed, and as well would provide safety for the players involved in the cashing. I am thinking there are some benefits to it (having the planets in-sector and using the Citadel to ship-swap rather then attacking the Furb or Xporting into the Furb.)

As an additional thought, would this not also save the Blue turns (by reducing the additional turns involved in towing?) as well as reduce overall spending (by restocking the same set of ships over and over, rather then purchasing a new Furb once the other is out of Holds or has been destroyed?)

.............

I take it this is an example of warp capable ships in unlimited settings rather then turns games with SDT ships without warp drives?

Well, I suppose if the ship is not equipped with warp abilities then another ship w/ Twarp ability would be required, LOL. Even still, if that ship had 1 to 2 additional TPW, which most likely it would... it still might just actually pan-out in the long run. As the added turns saved from the towing alone would be extremely helpful.

quote:Originally posted by RexxCrow

Well, I suppose if the ship is not equipped with warp abilities then another ship w/ Twarp ability would be required, LOL. Even still, if that ship had 1 to 2 additional TPW, which most likely it would... it still might just actually pan-out in the long run. As the added turns saved from the towing alone would be extremely helpful.


Its much cheaper to buy a furb ship and blow it then it is to take a colt and port at a class 0 and buy new holds......

-Sb

You don't want to xport into the furb except as a blue, at dock, to buy holds.

A furb is blown up, not a ship you want to be in. You don't tow the colt back and forth to dock, heavens that's a horrible waste of turns and cash. Remember that holds cost money, but if you buy them as part of the original ship the holds end up costing only a tiny fraction of the price. Plus a merf is like 2tpw, whereas the colt is usually 6. So towing a merf costs 4 extra turns from dock to the cashing site, towing a colt costs 12 turns extra towing it from then back to the cashing site, 24 turns total. That's 20 turns per cycle extra. If you and your partner bust, say, 20 times, that's 400 turns there. You really want to waste 400 turns? You bring a merf to the red and have them blow it, recovering holds in the process.

Since you cannot put a tpad @ dock you still have to tow it out (otherwise you could bwarp and chain-xport). One possibility is if the colt has twarp, you could tpad to dock, furb, twarp back and then xport back to dock if it's close enough. If your ISS ship has a high enough TPW this could end up saving you turns if you did it right. Would still cost more, but those turns could be used to colo or grid later... which if the edit is such might end up being worth it. Yes having a tpad @ the cashing sector would speed up that end, and save turns (and be worth doing if you can do it) if your furbing ship (like an ISS) has more than 1 tpw.

My thoughts on using xport to furb would be putting a planet at a class 0 for unlim world-blah furbing. It would secure the port and allow you to twarp there, furb, and bwarp out again... speeding up the process and making it more secure. But then again there are many ways of making unlim cashing safer, like adding a blue furber to the mix, that would also solve this without putting one of your planets in a busy sector.

For what it's worth...

If you are furbing in a stockish game, it's often best to do it in a CFS. Yes, that means your furber has to be CEO, but it saves a bunch of blue turns. Especially if you are running 3 reds.

Also, if you have your reds in havocs, then your blues can restock their ships so your reds never have to go to dock (except under cloak tow [:D])

Of course, a lot depends on your corp, and the edits.

Hmm. That's a good point. I usually have a red use the CFS so they can kill with it.
Good counter-PoV.

Ultimately, the method you choose to use would be based mainly upon the edits/settings, including the Gold ship edits. I was thinking in the lines of Traitor, not to steal any of his mojo! [;)] But, there are (usually) more ships in the game that could be taken advantage of, other then just the stock COLT or Merf.

I agree that warping w/ a vessel-in-tow back to the SD, would be a massive waste of turns, so that is not a good practice to do. I figured out all the variables and included them to describe the process, to the best of my knowledge anyway! I have come to the conclusion that it is not really a good idea, unless there are additional ship edits that are more generous then stock edits.


Each run taking the COLT to be refurbished:

Bwarp to SD w/ the COLT (ISS standing by at SD): 1
Port at SD to restock its holds: 1
Xport into the ISS: 1
Twarp from SD w/ ISS towing the COLT back: 16
Every X amount of runs refuel the ISS: (1)
Bwarp ISS back to SD: 1
Xport into the unmanned COLT (must be w/ in 15-sectors): 1

Total Blue turns per run: 21(22)
Additional Red turns per run: 0 (other then the standard number of turns used per cycle in their chosen cashing method.)


Cost of 30 replacement Holds (assuming a base-high cost of 249 Credits per Hold): 148,170


----
Hold math process:
4,649*30+(20*29*30)/2
139,470+8,700
=148,170
----


Standard Furbing method factors:
Bwarp to SD: 1
Port at SD and purchase Furb: 1
Total turns to tow Furb using an ISS: 8
Every X amount of runs refuel the ISS: (1)

Total Blue turns per run: 9(10)
Additional Red turns per run: 0 (other then the standard number of turns used per cycle in their chosen cashing method.)

Cost of a stock Furb w/ 30 initial Holds: 33,400


Overall Differences, (refurbishing the COLT vs. purchasing new Furb each run.)
A cost to the Blue of 12(12) extra turns per run.
A cost to the Red of: 0 additional turns per run.
Cost increase to refurbish COLT rather then purchase new Furb: 114,770 = (148,170-33,400)


The only other thing I can think of is if Holds are lost during the Furbing process, or if more then 30 Holds are needed and the Blue must Xport into the Furb redock and increase the shipboard Holds, that process might begin to offset the overall differences?

So basically we are talking about unlimited turns games? Or are we talking about turns or midrange games with almost stock ships? Seems in unlims with warp Colts and such it really doesn't matter. In other games where you have to count turns and maybe timelimits for best value per turns it might be different? I for one am unable to respond unless I know what the settings/edits are. [B)]

Well, actually even in an unlimited game, the idea I was thinking would not even be preferred. It would have more to do w/ the modifications on the individual ships, in choosing which methods to ultimately use, for example if the COLT was edited to have its original 250 Hold capacity, landing and ship-swap abilities, non-commission, along with the addition of Twarp w/ 3 TPW (or 4 TPW) it would begin to sway the preference toward favoring the COLT over the stock Furb for Hold replenishment for Red cashing.