Name me one script that you can't do without in this game. On the "not intended to be done to the script" argument, that is just weak. Ever script has a certain thing it intends to achieve. You can't say someone is doing a low blow by circumventing a scripts intentions. By that logic, avoiding a photon script is a low blow.

However, all of this is aside from the original purpose of this thread. Why do people feel the need to throw a fit and talk about quitting games over something like script spoofing when in the past people would have just adapted, fixed the problem, and went on to win? Why must an issue be made over something relatively minor in terms of previous game issues? Is it the unlimited turn truce mentality coming back to bite trade wars in the Butt? You expect the enemy to take it easy on you until you're ready?

Well, it's not like sysops aren't trying to make games where combat scripts and spoofing are irrelevant. Slim banged just such a game. we had 12 peeps show up, and only 4 stayed on more than 3 days.
K3 and Speed Demon vs. Traitor and Elder Prophet.
It's been a tight game. Very enjoyable. and NO combat scripts. No worries about getting spoofed. No worries about hitting a fig and getting p-dropped or photoned. it's like 1990 all over again. 30 min time limit, 250 turns, 1 node on-line at a time.

I was hoping more peeps would show up for it, since there was a demand for such a game. But apparently, it's too manly for them. You want a challenge? Try playing this game. You have to be quick and efficient. You have to take risks. You have to plan. You can't make mistakes. Some peeps might have thought it would go on forever, but we should have a good idea who's gonna win in a week or two. It's a lot like chess, only with guns.

"But apparently, it's too manly for them. "

LMAO

ah traitor... you are good stuff.

ok, analogy #57
we are playing baseball.
you are on first base.
its a grounder to the first baseman (me).
you take off towards second.
while "going for the ball" i stick my leg out and force you to trip and break your nose.
i also get a double play.
its your fault for not paying attention where your legs were going.
the ends justify the means.
win at all costs.

this to me, is what you are saying.
look, i'm sorry i was playing the game and "running to 2nd base"
you don't need to be a **** and "trip me"
go for the ball, make the play. no need for cheap shots.

and one more quote:

"Lame excuse for lame players.
Oh did i mention Lame?"

no, i think i mentioned it lol

i will say one thing, i'm glad this hasn't turned into a big flame war (even though kemper smells like tuna)
hehe

Slim

The only "Hail" that was "Spammed" was - "Average Interval Lag"
this was sent maybe 2-3 times to maybe 2-3 people - so I wouldn't call it spam.
For those who don't know- With ck's old saveme- this was the trigger for a reconnect using cks auto relog- which told the saveme to land on planet # x - so if you were already at cit prompt it sends you to cannon level. Now- this being said- the fix to this script was released on 1-8-2004- over 1 year ago according to cks site... so the only reason this would effect anyone is if their to lazy to download KNOWN bug fixes from over a year ago.
As to the bot spoof- was done 1 time and now its been fixed. It was actually more in the nature of- "I wonder if this would work..?" and now we know- and now I fixed it.
As to spoofing...I can't think of a single reload script that I wouldn't try to spoof- Is there some reason I would rather kill figs on a tholian vs planet? I see beating scripts as a challenge of my game knowledge vs the scripters writing..nothing more - just a challenge. Mine have been beatin before- guess what- I fixed em. I'm sure theyll be beatin again - but you won't see me here complaining.

quote:Originally posted by Harley Nuss (teamEIS)


Is it the unlimited turn truce mentality coming back to bite trade wars in the Butt? You expect the enemy to take it easy on you until you're ready?


I believe you just hit the nail on the head.

I'm sure I could just repeat what has been said before, but I think most everything has been said between these two threads. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Some feel it is "wrong" others feel it is "right." Overall, it is everyone's decision how they play, provided it is within the rules.

I can only really comment much on the following:
1.) There are no REQUIRED scripts to play TW. Scripting never has, and never will be a required part of TW. If u want a higher chance of winning, you will need to use scripts. Would I play a game above 200 turns with someone doing SDT by hand? Probably not, but that is not a requirement to play. The only requirement is a telnet client.
2.) 80% of script spoofing is because people run things AFK. The #1 thing people are told is, don't run AFK scripts.
3.) People run scripts because they (the script user) want an advantage over the person using the macro / by hand technique. You can deny it, but in the end it is true. People use reloaders so people can't kill them or take their planet. They are using a script vs their skill to win. Because they are using the script, they are open to spoofing. Reloaders are the perfect example. People who use them want a way to defend their stuff, so they run a script. The views posted in this thread indicate that since u are running a reloader, sucks to be the invader. Doesn't matter if they have worked harder, longer, put in key time, and played way better. They don't get to invade, because the reloader (run AFK) is in effect and shouldn't be spoofed.
4.) Something to keep in mind, which I find extremely interesting. If I give someone a macro to pbust, and they are using it in a game, and someone finds a way to trick the macro, they get killed. I don't hear people complaining about that. I would wager that 99% of TW players got a macro from someone, and it was not perfect, and someone found a way around it. I never hear those complaints. It all comes down to the same thing. Someone provided a tool, and someone got around the tool. I find people are always congrating on getting around a macro "good kill", "good job on making me screw that up", but when it is an AFK script, that is different.

In any event I wish all of you the best of luck in tournaments and rec play. Play how u feel it right, and don't play with people you don't want too. I'm sure I'll be talking to some / all on ICQ.

Jhereg

quote:I understand where you're comin from Z, but there really is no basis for complainin about something thats provided free and without guarantees.

I hear ya Typoon, I'm not trying to come across like I'm complaining. And I understand that it is/was an isolated incident that most likely won't happen again anytime soon. Player (A) was running an out of date script and Player (B) took advantage of it. I don't want anyone to think I'm just calling out B because A was just as much at fault.
Do what you will, and to each his own opinion. My personal views on the players involved have not changed.
How does the old saying go? “There is no honor among thieves”. I think it applies here.

lol also interesting how it was havok/oz spoofing his own script, talk about some insider information,

After prolonging the other thread on this topic, I had decided to stay out of this one, but it looks like I'm changing my mind to make one point. Harley, Kav - It is NOT about laziness on anyone's part. It is not even necessarily about having the scripting knowledge to make a script difficult or impossible to spoof. Its about ethics, and a sense of what is and is not good sportsmanship. When I was in high school, I played striker on the school soccer team and in a game, a defender from the other team deliberately took my knee out. Ostensibly, he was "going for the ball" and so no foul was called. The ref decided that it wasn't against the rules, regardless of the orthoscopic surgery and physical therapy I had to go through. So it wasn't "cheating", the ref had ruled it OK. Does that mean that every defender should think its OK to crush someone's knee? Playing inside the rules is NOT the same as good sportmanship.

So having said that, I think I pretty well understand the viewpoints everyone is coming from, but lets show good sportsmanship here at least. So please, can everyone knock off the insults and agree to disagree like adults? A difference of opinion does NOT automatically classify someone as "lazy" or a "lamer" or "whiny" or a "cheater" or whatever.

Crushing someone's knee is akin to breaking you opponents fingers, not spoofing a script. Additionally, failure to secure a script against spoofs IS laziness. I write my own scripts. It is not that hard to make spoofing attempts fail. You seem to think that the ability to be spoofed is inherent in a script. I tell you it is NOT. Using a script that is able to be spoofed is like playing soccer without your goalie. Sure, you can do it, but you had better expect your opponents to take advantage of it.

Incidentally, the way oz bot handles authentication is a joke in general. He makes it easy to scan for SS channels and easy to take control of the bot once you find it. This is yet another example of laziness in a script.

Oh, and has anyone come up with a script that you have to use in order to win? Please tell me which one it is.

quote:Originally posted by Harley Nuss (teamEIS)

Oh, and has anyone come up with a script that you have to use in order to win? Please tell me which one it is.

<checks pulse of horse...weak, but there. Better beat it some more!>

Well, I guess that totally depends on the type of game, and the competition. In a modern Unlimited? I don't see how you could win without scripts against all but the weakest of players. In a time limited 250 turn game? I think I could do what I needed with macros and still be competitive. It would be a lot more work tho. But I've been known to macro SDT in ages past. I sure would miss the ZTM tho. If I had to play games with only one script, I think it would have to be ZTM. So much of my strategy revolves around knowing the map, and knowing it early.

Iwin.ts

*sigh* Here I go again.....

Ok Harley, first of all, I never said having a knee crushed was the same thing as having a script spoofed. That soccer story was about sportsmanship, not specifically about script spoofing. Because thats what this argument really boils down to: sportmanship and ethics. The rest is just details - sure, fun to argue, but not the main point. If you want to nitpick the specifics, I'll play along, but don't get confused and think that is the point of what I'm saying here. Sportsmanship is the key. Spoofing is being a bad sport, IMHO. If you disagree, fine. If you agree, fine. Does it matter? No. Will any of us change anyone else's mind about this issue? Probably not. Am I right? Depends who you ask. Are you right Harley? Depends who you ask. This issue is RELATIVE and I really wish everyone could just realize that and move on without being insulting. If someone does not share your opinion, thats doesn't make them stupid or whatever. It just means they have a different opinion, which they are entitled to. Are they right? Of course not. Are they wrong? Of course not. Thats what an opinion is. If it was provable, we'd call it a fact.

Now since you seem to want to pick nits, I'll indulge you

quote:Why can't they just suck it up, fix their script, and keep on playing?
You said this in your very first post here, Harley. I think this is an important quote because I think it shows where you are coming from quite clearly. I have some problems with that though. This quote implies that everyone has the ability or capability to go through the scripts they use and fix them. The vast majority of TW players are not capable of this, if they even have the script in .ts format, which is unlikely. Just because you can script well doesn't mean everyone can. And just because someone can write simple scripts doesn't mean they're capable of debugging a monstrously huge or complicated script.

I can't help but notice that some of the most talented scripters are the ones coming down most vociferously on the side that spoofing is an acceptable practice. RammaR, Traitor, Harley, etc. I'm wondering if you guys are making the mistake of thinking that you are typical TW players with typical abilities? Because you aren't. You all may have the ability to write excellent, competitive scripts. You may also have the ability to write those scripts in such a way as to be difficult or impossible to spoof. And kudos for you guys. I have no doubts that it took lots of time, effort and practice to get to that point. But just because a thing is easy for you doesn't mean it is easy for everyone (or anyone) else. The ability to write top notch competitive scripts that are spoof proof or spoof resistant is restricted to a very small percentage of the TW community, as is the ability to examine the code of other scripts to find ways to spoof them. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but hopefully I can at least make you think. I would urge you all to think about this. What assumptions are you bringing to this argument? That everyone is like you, capable of putting together an excellent script?

Now, I'm certainly not suggesting that you be punished for your abilities, far from it. I'm merely saying that in my OPINION spoofing someone's script is bad sportsmanship. If you don't like that, too bad. Deal. Its my opinion, get over it. If anyone wants to call me stupid or lazy, knock yourself out. Thats also an opinion. But again I would like to reiterate a call for some politeness and respect. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they're wrong. Think about that. Harley, NEITHER OF US IS WRONG. We have differing opinions, thats all.