quote:Originally posted by Rofellos

Yes...right. So are we all OK with sitting at planet prompt or is that still a big deal for some people?


Only to those that you do it to.....[;)]

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

hmm, i think i misunderstood some of this thread... so the guy was on the planet prompt? i think if you let someone on your OWN planet, well its your own fault, becuase they cant get on your planet prompt without getting shot at my Qcannon or killing figs. HOWEVER just hitting l and riding THAT pause prompt (dunno if that works) or the fig attack prompt.. that could be considered bug use. torpin dock.. bug.. just curious, who discovered that bug? a clever person for sure. an evil person, but a clever person, heh. i wonder what those first people thought if they were online when it happened.. i can imagine:
"dum diddie dummmm.. (photon was fired.. etc..) thats it, i am going to rehab."
heh

Slim

quote:Originally posted by Boss

I guess we all know now what kind of find upstanding elit player Big12ozhog is then dont we.

I guess you dont know ANYTHING. Dont speak about things of which you havent a clue. Biggy's game was over according to him so who cared if he ruined the game of the corp who ruined his. They both used bugs and one is no less wrong than the other. However, in biggys defense he says their game was ruined so he simply ruined theirs. You guys who never play dont understand that when you invest 6 days in a game and have it ruined by someone else it really pisses you off. Some people overreact, others simply retire. Either way what Doc did was wrong, what biggy did was wrong, but I will stick up for both of them as far as being good people. You have probably never dealt with either of them so SHUT UP already.

quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector

quote:Originally posted by Boss

I guess we all know now what kind of find upstanding elit player Big12ozhog is then dont we.

I guess you dont know ANYTHING. Dont speak about things of which you havent a clue. Biggy's game was over according to him so who cared if he ruined the game of the corp who ruined his. They both used bugs and one is no less wrong than the other. However, in biggys defense he says their game was ruined so he simply ruined theirs. You guys who never play dont understand that when you invest 6 days in a game and have it ruined by someone else it really pisses you off. Some people overreact, others simply retire. Either way what Doc did was wrong, what biggy did was wrong, but I will stick up for both of them as far as being good people. You have probably never dealt with either of them so SHUT UP already.



I have to admit I am surprised at your response, having played with you and knowing your commitment and skill I am shocked that you would take so lightly an offense of this magnitude. That fact of the matter is we aren't comparing equal wrongs here you have one guy who takes a pod landing on a planet and then doesn't hit enter at the pause, ok that is a gray area and wrong, but this in itself doesn't ruin a game nor does it cost any real damage to the corporation owning the planet, the damage was done when the planet was warped back with the player at the prompt as a matter of fact you can even say given the version that doctor who did nothing wrong he was simply playing the game as designed and not breaking any in game rules. Now if this was considered a bug a simple ICQ to the OP would fix the situation and all would be fine, but the path that was taken was to orchestrate a planned destruction of the game by using an exploit to circumvent the built in rules of the game.

Now before you use the argument that they both used a bug and are equally wrong first goto a sector outside fed space and try and fire a ptorp into it, I don't have to tell you that a built in game rule stops you from doing it, but now go take a pod on a cannon in .55 and tell me where the built in game rule comes up and tells you that you must hit enter within a certain time period. The fact of the matter is that one does not constitute the other. This game most certainly wasn't over from the corp who got ambushed at star dock's opinion, nor from the OP's opinion so what justification is that for this intentional destructive behavior? I said this before and i will say it again being pissed off about something that happens in the game doesn't give you the right to perform unethical actions. You can stick up for who you like, but I don't think Doctor Who did anything wrong, certainly if he did, nothing that would have caused OZ's game to be ruined, but its pretty obvious to me and I am sure many others that when OZ gets cornered he will resort to cheating or whatever else if he has to not to get beat, and I think he would do so again if only he was sure he wouldn't get caught. I wouldn't want to play any game he was involved with, certainly none that mattered, and I surely wouldn't want him or people like him or who played with him after knowing what type of player he is on my server. To defend this guy and worse to continue to play with this guy is pretty much putting a stamp of approval on cheating.

Well if your going to draw a line in the sand. I will make my stand. I have corped with oz. I have played against him. I understand why he did what he did. I will not try to explain to anyone else, for it seems all have made up there minds. I would in the future Corp with Oz or Doc Who. They both screwed up. they both got punished. **** happens and has happened in TW since the beginning. There are some I will never and I rarely say never corp with. I hope everyone that is so saintly gets this out of there system. Lets get on with it. its been taken care of. Vader you did a great job of handling a bad situation.

quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (teamEIS)

quote:Originally posted by Bone Collector

quote:Originally posted by Boss

I guess we all know now what kind of find upstanding elit player Big12ozhog is then dont we.

I guess you dont know ANYTHING. Dont speak about things of which you havent a clue. Biggy's game was over according to him so who cared if he ruined the game of the corp who ruined his. They both used bugs and one is no less wrong than the other. However, in biggys defense he says their game was ruined so he simply ruined theirs. You guys who never play dont understand that when you invest 6 days in a game and have it ruined by someone else it really pisses you off. Some people overreact, others simply retire. Either way what Doc did was wrong, what biggy did was wrong, but I will stick up for both of them as far as being good people. You have probably never dealt with either of them so SHUT UP already.



I have to admit I am surprised at your response, having played with you and knowing your commitment and skill I am shocked that you would take so lightly an offense of this magnitude. That fact of the matter is we aren't comparing equal wrongs here you have one guy who takes a pod landing on a planet and then doesn't hit enter at the pause, ok that is a gray area and wrong, but this in itself doesn't ruin a game nor does it cost any real damage to the corporation owning the planet, the damage was done when the planet was warped back with the player at the prompt as a matter of fact you can even say given the version that doctor who did nothing wrong he was simply playing the game as designed and not breaking any in game rules. Now if this was considered a bug a simple ICQ to the OP would fix the situation and all would be fine, but the path that was taken was to orchestrate a planned destruction of the game by using an exploit to circumvent the built in rules of the game.

Now before you use the argument that they both used a bug and are equally wrong first goto a sector outside fed space and try and fire a ptorp into it, I don't have to tell you that a built in game rule stops you from doing it, but now go take a pod on a cannon in .55 and tell me where the built in game rule comes up and tells you that you must hit enter within a certain time period. The fact of the matter is that one does not constitute the other. This game most certainly wasn't over from the corp who got ambushed at star dock's opinion, nor from the OP's opinion so what justification is that for this intentional destructive behavior? I said this before and i will say it again being pissed off about something that happens in the game doesn't give you the right to perform unethical actions. You can stick up for who you like, but I don't think Doctor Who did anything wrong, certainly if he did, nothing that would have caused OZ's game to be ruined, but its pretty obvious to me and I am sure many others that when OZ gets cornered he will resort to cheating or whatever else if he has to not to get beat, and I think he would do so again if only he was sure he wouldn't get caught. I wouldn't want to play any game he was involved with, certainly none that mattered, and I surely wouldn't want him or people like him or who played with him after knowing what type of player he is on my server. To defend this guy and worse to continue to play with this guy is pretty much putting a stamp of approval on cheating.



Well said. I've never been one to agree with the whole "I was just getting even" crap as justification for playing dirty. Perhaps some people have never heard the expression that two wrongs don't make a right? Yes it is cliche, but it's also true. Anyway, kudos for stressing this point. I agree 100%.

Just my $.02

So is photoning SD a bug or an "undocumented feature"?

Is it a bug because only a few know how to do it? If everyone knew how to do it, and it became common practice, it would require a change in gameplay and tactics.

I, and anyone else that have played for 10 plus years, have seen many "bugs" become commonly accepted gameplay.

What oz did was wrong, only because gameop said this tactic is unacceptable.

I myself have been accused of cheating. The first time, (in 1991), because I used a helper. There are gameops that to this day consider helpers, scripts, and now bots cheating.

It's up the gameops to decide what tactics they consider illegal. If they don't want this, they can, will, and do set rules.

If the game developers say this is not the direction they want TW to go in, then they will change the software to fix the problem.

I will continue to play TW. More bugs will come and go. Good players will continue to be accused of cheating.

Good to know that the more things change, the more they stay the same. <G>

Jasper

What really pisse me off is that Darn Mbbs mega rob bug....Hey wait I like that one never mind. Rick is right I am a bug user Like Oz. Guilty by association. <hangs head in Shame>

quote:Originally posted by Jasper

So is photoning SD a bug or an "undocumented feature"?

Is it a bug because only a few know how to do it? If everyone knew how to do it, and it became common practice, it would require a change in gameplay and tactics.

I, and anyone else that have played for 10 plus years, have seen many "bugs" become commonly accepted gameplay.

What oz did was wrong, only because gameop said this tactic is unacceptable.

I myself have been accused of cheating. The first time, (in 1991), because I used a helper. There are gameops that to this day consider helpers, scripts, and now bots cheating.

It's up the gameops to decide what tactics they consider illegal. If they don't want this, they can, will, and do set rules.

If the game developers say this is not the direction they want TW to go in, then they will change the software to fix the problem.

I will continue to play TW. More bugs will come and go. Good players will continue to be accused of cheating.

Good to know that the more things change, the more they stay the same. <G>

Jasper


I think it was a little more than just the gameop saying that this tactic was cheating in this case. Perusing the thread I see a clear majority opinion among players as well as gameops that this is in fact cheating and everyone knew this already, including the accused. With as many negative responses as there have been on here, I don't see how one could conclude that this is merely a gameop throwing his weight around and "accusing good players of cheating."

Again just my opinion, nothing more.

quote:Originally posted by Jasper

So is photoning SD a bug or an "undocumented feature"?

Is it a bug because only a few know how to do it? If everyone knew how to do it, and it became common practice, it would require a change in gameplay and tactics.

I, and anyone else that have played for 10 plus years, have seen many "bugs" become commonly accepted gameplay.

What oz did was wrong, only because gameop said this tactic is unacceptable.

I myself have been accused of cheating. The first time, (in 1991), because I used a helper. There are gameops that to this day consider helpers, scripts, and now bots cheating.

It's up the gameops to decide what tactics they consider illegal. If they don't want this, they can, will, and do set rules.

If the game developers say this is not the direction they want TW to go in, then they will change the software to fix the problem.

I will continue to play TW. More bugs will come and go. Good players will continue to be accused of cheating.

Good to know that the more things change, the more they stay the same. <G>

Jasper


quote:Originally posted by Tradewarrior55

What really pisse me off is that Darn Mbbs mega rob bug....Hey wait I like that one never mind. Rick is right I am a bug user Like Oz. Guilty by association. <hangs head in Shame>


I have to say these are a couple of the dumbest comparisons I have ever seen. Mega-rob is not now, nor ever was considered and exploit, which is the reason it was included in MBBS mode and 0-turn colonizing(as popular if not more popular tactic in MBBS) wasn't. And the idea that an exploit is considered a tactic simply on popularity is ridicules. An exploit is defined and removed if it circumvents a built in game rule or is a design flaw it has nothing to do with popularity. How anyone can compare circumventing fed space protection to mega rob is beyond me, and where anyone would get the idea that this would EVER be an accepted tactic is also beyond me. Playing tactically within the game is one thing out and out cheating is another, let's not dumb up the topic with the old "undocumented feature" nonsense, first learn the difference between an undocumented feature and an exploit and then come back and let me know how many exploits have become commonly accepted game play, cause I can't think of any that haven't been or are in the process of being fixed. I have been involved with this game since 1989 and helped Gary and JP get v3 started and create the MBBS mode for v3 and in that time I have seen people accused of a lot of things too, some unjustified, some not and many that were hard to tell, but in all my years I have never heard or seen anyone that has played the game more then 15 mins say that ptorping dock or circumventing fed space protection could in any way be anything but cheating. If you don't care that he cheated, fine say so but don't make moronic statements that somehow this was just a misunderstanding or that it's another case of a good player being accused of cheating simply because he outplayed his opponents or that this will somehow become a common tactic (it was removed from the game almost the same day it was publicly disclosed).

[/quote]

I don't see how one could conclude that this is merely a gameop throwing his weight around and "accusing good players of cheating."

Again just my opinion, nothing more.
[/quote]

Thowing his weight around? Vader acted fairly, and in a most profesional manner. After consulting everyone involved, he made a rational, sane, and reasonable decision. I was in that game, AND I was consulted. I have NO problem with Yader's handling of the entire affair.

Jasper

quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (teamEIS)

quote:Originally posted by Jasper

So is photoning SD a bug or an "undocumented feature"?

Is it a bug because only a few know how to do it? If everyone knew how to do it, and it became common practice, it would require a change in gameplay and tactics.

I, and anyone else that have played for 10 plus years, have seen many "bugs" become commonly accepted gameplay.

What oz did was wrong, only because gameop said this tactic is unacceptable.

I myself have been accused of cheating. The first time, (in 1991), because I used a helper. There are gameops that to this day consider helpers, scripts, and now bots cheating.

It's up the gameops to decide what tactics they consider illegal. If they don't want this, they can, will, and do set rules.

If the game developers say this is not the direction they want TW to go in, then they will change the software to fix the problem.

I will continue to play TW. More bugs will come and go. Good players will continue to be accused of cheating.

Good to know that the more things change, the more they stay the same. <G>

Jasper


quote:Originally posted by Tradewarrior55

What really pisse me off is that Darn Mbbs mega rob bug....Hey wait I like that one never mind. Rick is right I am a bug user Like Oz. Guilty by association. <hangs head in Shame>


I have to say these are a couple of the dumbest comparisons I have ever seen. Mega-rob is not now, nor ever was considered and exploit,




Mega rob not an exploit? Seems to me it is. It sure beats the exp = amount that can be robbed formula. I'm sure in some MBBS game in years past, a sysop caught a certain player mega robbing and banned him for cheating. Now my memory isn't the greatest, but I think you guys tried to remove it once and there was a clamore for its return.
Are you saying that the first time the MBBS version was compiled you actually put the mega rob in as an undocumented feature?

Please explain to me again how its not an exploit and circumvision of the basic rules of the game

Note I said if this is not the direction you want tw to go in, you'll change it. As stated, you have fixed already...

Jasper

quote:Originally posted by Rofellos

That isn't a bug. You have to actually LAND to do that. That's just genius. I applaud whoever did that first.




Heh thanks just like my old FAV...that was CHANGED CUZ PEEPS like FC cry too dam much, F...ing Punks..

Any ways we use to DET a Planet and NOT HIT [PAUSE] that made you disapeer from Sector
NO TORPS nothing HURT YOU
BUT..
hehe
that changed some one got the idea to GEN the same planet record
then DET IT and kill you hehe.

But I would use that to SLEEP SAFE at night in big high turn games back in the day.

SO ya dying on MOTH or landing, then hiding on PAUSE is slick ****.

BUT NOW its a BUG and been fixed err if you call ver .61 a fix.
hehe

Res Judicata

I fail to see where the game was ruined by Doctor Who sitting on the prompt for awhile about 12 hours before hog decided to tear the game up. He had sent a message to Snow White (after waiting for someone to come to keys) stating "I'm dead". They tried to work out a rescue getting a ship nearby for him but the problem was the Guardian over Hog's planets had interdictor turned on so there was no way for him to escape. They had L4 planets and decided rather than making a battle for the sector they would strip colonists from the other planets in sector and move. I have played many games where I sat in Tholians over planets eating photons for up to a week until the planets were shielded while corpies defended our bubbles. Apparently Doc lifted and found himself in a new sector and tried warping out and was ::SD::. To me this says he tried to remain alive and Hog felt the game was ruined because his corp burned their turns moving colos and fuel. Unsure if details are totally accurate but is very close to what happened acording to messages both on Fed and subspace channels.

[/quote]
I guess you dont know ANYTHING. Dont speak about things of which you havent a clue. Biggy's game was over according to him so who cared if he ruined the game of the corp who ruined his. They both used bugs and one is no less wrong than the other. However, in biggys defense he says their game was ruined so he simply ruined theirs. You guys who never play dont understand that when you invest 6 days in a game and have it ruined by someone else it really pisses you off. Some people overreact, others simply retire. Either way what Doc did was wrong, what biggy did was wrong, but I will stick up for both of them as far as being good people. You have probably never dealt with either of them so SHUT UP already.
[/quote]

Well you may not have considered it a bug, But there were BBSes That did. It was not alowd to be used. I wont belabor it any more. Your EIs i am a nobody.
I am Wrong as usual. Guess I will keep my comments to myself. <shrug>
its only a game.

quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (teamEIS)

quote:Originally posted by Jasper

So is photoning SD a bug or an "undocumented feature"?

Is it a bug because only a few know how to do it? If everyone knew how to do it, and it became common practice, it would require a change in gameplay and tactics.

I, and anyone else that have played for 10 plus years, have seen many "bugs" become commonly accepted gameplay.

What oz did was wrong, only because gameop said this tactic is unacceptable.

I myself have been accused of cheating. The first time, (in 1991), because I used a helper. There are gameops that to this day consider helpers, scripts, and now bots cheating.

It's up the gameops to decide what tactics they consider illegal. If they don't want this, they can, will, and do set rules.

If the game developers say this is not the direction they want TW to go in, then they will change the software to fix the problem.

I will continue to play TW. More bugs will come and go. Good players will continue to be accused of cheating.

Good to know that the more things change, the more they stay the same. <G>

Jasper


quote:Originally posted by Tradewarrior55

What really pisse me off is that Darn Mbbs mega rob bug....Hey wait I like that one never mind. Rick is right I am a bug user Like Oz. Guilty by association. <hangs head in Shame>


I have to say these are a couple of the dumbest comparisons I have ever seen. Mega-rob is not now, nor ever was considered and exploit, which is the reason it was included in MBBS mode and 0-turn colonizing(as popular if not more popular tactic in MBBS) wasn't. And the idea that an exploit is considered a tactic simply on popularity is ridicules. An exploit is defined and removed if it circumvents a built in game rule or is a design flaw it has nothing to do with popularity. How anyone can compare circumventing fed space protection to mega rob is beyond me, and where anyone would get the idea that this would EVER be an accepted tactic is also beyond me. Playing tactically within the game is one thing out and out cheating is another, let's not dumb up the topic with the old "undocumented feature" nonsense, first learn the difference between an undocumented feature and an exploit and then come back and let me know how many exploits have become commonly accepted game play, cause I can't think of any that haven't been or are in the process of being fixed. I have been involved with this game since 1989 and helped Gary and JP get v3 started and create the MBBS mode for v3 and in that time I have seen people accused of a lot of things too, some unjustified, some not and many that were hard to tell, but in all my years I have never heard or seen anyone that has played the game more then 15 mins say that ptorping dock or circumventing fed space protection could in any way be anything but cheating. If you don't care that he cheated, fine say so but don't make moronic statements that somehow this was just a misunderstanding or that it's another case of a good player being accused of cheating simply because he outplayed his opponents or that this will somehow become a common tactic (it was removed from the game almost the same day it was publicly disclosed).